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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2013 10:26:04 GMT -5
We do need those that are able to make hard decisions that take a certain callousness or lack of empathy in society and as a species. We also need those who are selfless and have a great amount of empathy, I would hate to live in a society made up of only the former. Or if we had only selfless people a lot of hard decisions would never be made and we may not have survived this long. So who is right or who is more important to success...neither IMO. Of course I do have my opinions on who I would rather spend my time with. never quite thought about it THAT way i guess i put myself in that first category....i do make hard decisions....but i never thought of them as callous....i have been told i lack empathy in certain situations i was "trained" under the following rule....does that have something to do with how i make decisions? "business is business, and friendship is friendship, and never the twain shall meet" i know that i am valued by owners for my ability to see through the personal side of the equation.....maybe that also makes me callous i try to see what is best for the greater number of employees...and that means losing a few on occasion during tough times
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jul 19, 2013 10:35:31 GMT -5
Right after the financial meltdown, bank bailouts, etc., I remember reading an article about how angry all the bankers were that they wouldn't be getting their bonuses.
They broke the global economy, and yet were pissed because they were entitled to that money - and the government put pay restrictions on the bailouts.
Nope, no entitlement problem here, folks. No need to restrict bonuses or institute ethics reforms. Nothing to see over here... I feel the same way about CEO's who take over a company, run it into the ground, get fired, and yet still walk away with a fabulous golden parachute, leaving all the minions to deal with stock crashes, bankruptcy, lay off, etc. If you've performed so badly your company tanked, how can you feel entitled to walk away with millions?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 19, 2013 10:40:55 GMT -5
... i know that i am valued by owners for my ability to see through the personal side of the equation.....maybe that also makes me callous i try to see what is best for the greater number of employees...and that means losing a few on occasion during tough times If losing one upper management employee means saving the jobs of two custodian employees, does that mean firing upper management is the "best for the greater number of employees"?
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Jul 19, 2013 10:41:18 GMT -5
I also find it hilarious when zib in particular participates in these discussions - because of how hypocritical her posts are. Anyone remember the thread where zib realized she wasn't making ends meet and had to go to her DF for an allowance. People who can't manage their own money, stupid losers who are entitled and living off someone else's dime... now where have we heard that before?
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workpublic
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Post by workpublic on Jul 19, 2013 10:45:58 GMT -5
If you've performed so badly your company tanked, how can you feel entitled to walk away with millions?
it's in the contract?
like sports people who under perform after getting the biggest contract?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 19, 2013 10:47:13 GMT -5
If you've performed so badly your company tanked, how can you feel entitled to walk away with millions? it's in the contract? like sports people who under perform after getting the biggest contract? That explains why they get it. It doesn't explain how they sleep at night after getting it.
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shelby
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Post by shelby on Jul 19, 2013 10:49:39 GMT -5
If you've performed so badly your company tanked, how can you feel entitled to walk away with millions? it's in the contract? like sports people who under perform after getting the biggest contract? That explains why they get it. It doesn't explain how they sleep at night after getting it. Yes that is entitlement being compensated regardless of output or outcome.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2013 11:00:21 GMT -5
... i know that i am valued by owners for my ability to see through the personal side of the equation.....maybe that also makes me callous i try to see what is best for the greater number of employees...and that means losing a few on occasion during tough times If losing one upper management employee means saving the jobs of two custodian employees, does that mean firing upper management is the "best for the greater number of employees"? yes....i have fired upper management as well i "try" to determine the needs.....not the wants you may want 3 managers to cover the sales department....but only 2 are needed and they will have to work additional hours for coverage you may want 3 guys covering the janitorial, but the operation only needs 2 maybe the trash gets emptied at 5pm not 830 am.....maybe the lawn gets mowed twice a month, not weekly maybe we can consolidate a cashier with an operator position, and make do with one instead of two people nothing is sacred..... the only "safe" employees are the ones that "pay" for themselves (sales people who work on commission, mechanic's who work on commission, etc)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2013 11:03:08 GMT -5
That explains why they get it. It doesn't explain how they sleep at night after getting it. Yes that is entitlement being compensated regardless of output or outcome. one of the advantages to working "under" a contract you get paid whether you produce or not one of the many reasons i HATE them....
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jul 19, 2013 11:04:25 GMT -5
That explains why they get it. It doesn't explain how they sleep at night after getting it. Yes that is entitlement being compensated regardless of output or outcome. Exactly, if I drove a company into bankruptcy there is no way I could walk away with millions, regardless of what my contract said, not with all the minions being laid off because of me. I always thought it was especially sleazy the way Kenneth Lay was cashing out his Enron stocks in the months leading up to the Enron explosion while at the same time urging Enron employees to hold on to their own company stocks. Kind of like the captain of an airplane shouting encouragement to the flight attendents as he parachutes out of the crashing airplane.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Jul 19, 2013 11:04:34 GMT -5
Right after the financial meltdown, bank bailouts, etc., I remember reading an article about how angry all the bankers were that they wouldn't be getting their bonuses.
They broke the global economy, and yet were pissed because they were entitled to that money - and the government put pay restrictions on the bailouts.
Nope, no entitlement problem here, folks. No need to restrict bonuses or institute ethics reforms. Nothing to see over here... I feel the same way about CEO's who take over a company, run it into the ground, get fired, and yet still walk away with a fabulous golden parachute, leaving all the minions to deal with stock crashes, bankruptcy, lay off, etc. If you've performed so badly your company tanked, how can you feel entitled to walk away with millions? You're preaching to the choir here. In both cases, they are entitled, thieving assholes. Though in my mind, someone who chooses not to get any marketable skills and then chooses to have a child they can't afford without a government handout is guilty of the same thing, just on a MUCH smaller scale, and not necessiarly as selfishly motivated.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 19, 2013 11:09:07 GMT -5
...i try to see what is best for the greater number of employees ... ... i "try" to determine the needs..... ... In the first posting, you indicate that you are motivated by what is best for the most employees. In the second, there is no indication that it is what is best for any employee that motivates you.
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busymom
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Post by busymom on Jul 19, 2013 11:11:10 GMT -5
Back to the "entitlement" issue: I went to college with a guy whose dad gifted him with a millions dollars (I believe it was) on graduation to start his own business. He did, & has built up his company into several locations.
Did he do the hard work to build his company? Yes. Did he "put in time"? Yes. BUT, his daddy gave him the money. Opportunity. THAT was his advantage, during the recession in the early 1980's. Sadly, he has the attitude that he is "special". I went to school with a lot of bright people, who did have the skills to get their own company up. But, no daddy to finance the deal. (Can you imagine walking into a bank & saying, "I want a million dollars to start a tile business". And not getting laughed out of the bank? That is the business that this man has built & grown.) I'm impressed with the company he has built up, but he's a tough guy to hang around with, simply because of his attitude.
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shelby
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Post by shelby on Jul 19, 2013 11:12:39 GMT -5
"You're preaching to the choir here. In both cases, they are entitled, thieving assholes.
Though in my mind, someone who chooses not to get any marketable skills and then chooses to have a child they can't afford without a government handout is guilty of the same thing, just on a MUCH smaller scale, and not necessiarly as selfishly motivated. "
I have asked this before with no answer, but why so much more focus on the poor welfare folks? IMO and I may be wrong, the thieving assholes are greater burden than the few who game the system for "smaller scale" "rewards"?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 19, 2013 11:19:19 GMT -5
... Though in my mind, ...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2013 11:22:58 GMT -5
...i try to see what is best for the greater number of employees ... ... i "try" to determine the needs..... ... In the first posting, you indicate that you are motivated by what is best for the most employees. In the second, there is no indication that it is what is best for any employee that motivates you. what is best for the "most" employees is ALWAYS staying operational i thought i made that very clear....but apparently not that is always my FIRST priority
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jul 19, 2013 11:25:08 GMT -5
I see a difference.
The CEO bankrupted his company due to his own bad actions. He then walks away with money while the employees that worked for him are left holding the bag and he feels no remorse. This is what a psychopath does.
The girl who gets pregnant before becoming self sustaining didn't plan it as a scheme to get money (although I know you like to think she did). She only has to look at other single moms to see that trying to raise a kid as a single uneducated mother is no bed of roses. She got pregnant because she didn't think. She didn't think she would get pregnant. Maybe her BF talked her into it. Maybe she assumed BF would hang around. Most likely, she didn't have a plan at all, it just happened, and then she tries to deal with it. This isn't psychopathic behavior, it's foolish behavior. It's thoughtless behavior. But it isn't evil.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2013 11:30:10 GMT -5
"You're preaching to the choir here. In both cases, they are entitled, thieving assholes.
Though in my mind, someone who chooses not to get any marketable skills and then chooses to have a child they can't afford without a government handout is guilty of the same thing, just on a MUCH smaller scale, and not necessiarly as selfishly motivated. "I have asked this before with no answer, but why so much more focus on the poor welfare folks? IMO and I may be wrong, the thieving assholes are greater burden than the few who game the system for "smaller scale" "rewards"? numbers.... how many Enron CEO's how many golden parachute executives on an annual basis 20, 30...more? Now how many are "gaming" the system as far as welfare, food stamps, etc..... i guarantee the numbers are a LOT higher than that most executives in companies are at 300k type salaries...if that you hear about the VERY FEW because the numbers are so astronomically ridiculous that they cause the reaction you are having every year magazines post the TOP executive pay across the conglomerates of the world these are not the AVERAGE executives....but their pay is all anyone ever focuses on
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busymom
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Post by busymom on Jul 19, 2013 11:34:02 GMT -5
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 19, 2013 11:40:45 GMT -5
We do need those that are able to make hard decisions that take a certain callousness or lack of empathy in society and as a species. We also need those who are selfless and have a great amount of empathy, I would hate to live in a society made up of only the former. Or if we had only selfless people a lot of hard decisions would never be made and we may not have survived this long. So who is right or who is more important to success...neither IMO. Of course I do have my opinions on who I would rather spend my time with. never quite thought about it THAT way i guess i put myself in that first category....i do make hard decisions....but i never thought of them as callous....i have been told i lack empathy in certain situations i was "trained" under the following rule....does that have something to do with how i make decisions? "business is business, and friendship is friendship, and never the twain shall meet" i know that i am valued by owners for my ability to see through the personal side of the equation.....maybe that also makes me callous i try to see what is best for the greater number of employees...and that means losing a few on occasion during tough times not to encourage people to make this argument personal, but you sound like a good person.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 19, 2013 11:42:25 GMT -5
I also find it hilarious when zib in particular participates in these discussions - because of how hypocritical her posts are. Anyone remember the thread where zib realized she wasn't making ends meet and had to go to her DF for an allowance. People who can't manage their own money, stupid losers who are entitled and living off someone else's dime... now where have we heard that before? bs, let's stick to the subject, ok? this is not about zib. though you may feel free to talk about the hipocrisy of selfish rich people talking about the selfish poor all you wish.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 19, 2013 11:43:30 GMT -5
That explains why they get it. It doesn't explain how they sleep at night after getting it. Yes that is entitlement being compensated regardless of output or outcome. if you think about it, this is precisely how most F500 management contracts work: heads i win, tails you lose.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2013 11:44:48 GMT -5
number of business'es in USA that have over 100 employees in 2008 129280 number of business in S&P 500 500 % of business'es in USA that are S&P 500 .003867 So the average pay at 3 tenths of 1% of USA companies over 100 employees exceeds 380x their average worker according the AFL/CIO
Care to guess what the other 99.7% are like?www.census.gov/econ/smallbus.htmlwonder why the media never says anything about this? edited...had year wrong 2008 not 2012 could it be it goes against what they are trying to get the public to believe?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 19, 2013 11:45:19 GMT -5
Yes that is entitlement being compensated regardless of output or outcome. Exactly, if I drove a company into bankruptcy there is no way I could walk away with millions, regardless of what my contract said, not with all the minions being laid off because of me. I always thought it was especially sleazy the way Kenneth Lay was cashing out his Enron stocks in the months leading up to the Enron explosion while at the same time urging Enron employees to hold on to their own company stocks. Kind of like the captain of an airplane shouting encouragement to the flight attendents as he parachutes out of the crashing airplane. kind of like a captain putting on a dress and getting in the life boat with the women. nothing pisses me off more.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 19, 2013 11:47:12 GMT -5
number of business'es in USA that have over 100 employees in 2012 129280 number of business in S&P 500 500 % of business'es in USA that are S&P 500 .003867 So the average pay at 3 tenths of 1% of USA companies over 100 employees exceeds 380x their average worker according the AFL/CIO
Care to guess what the other 99.7% are like?www.census.gov/econ/smallbus.htmlwonder why the media never says anything about this? could it be it goes against what they are trying to get the public to believe? i don't think so, gd. i have given this a lot of thought, and i think it is a combination of three things: 1) feeding into the perceptions of their readership 2) lazyness 3) sensationalism i would cite this continual use of the 380x number as proof positive of the MSM repeating rubbish rather than reporting.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 19, 2013 11:48:02 GMT -5
In the first posting, you indicate that you are motivated by what is best for the most employees. In the second, there is no indication that it is what is best for any employee that motivates you. what is best for the "most" employees is ALWAYS staying operational i thought i made that very clear....but apparently not that is always my FIRST priority But within that, there are options I am sure. So is the SECOND priority people? Or is it maximizing profit with living breathing human beings third?
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 19, 2013 11:50:32 GMT -5
"You're preaching to the choir here. In both cases, they are entitled, thieving assholes.
Though in my mind, someone who chooses not to get any marketable skills and then chooses to have a child they can't afford without a government handout is guilty of the same thing, just on a MUCH smaller scale, and not necessiarly as selfishly motivated. "I have asked this before with no answer, but why so much more focus on the poor welfare folks? IMO and I may be wrong, the thieving assholes are greater burden than the few who game the system for "smaller scale" "rewards"? this is a really solid argument, imo: proportionality. if a defense contractor single bids, overbids, and rips off the government, we are probably talking about billions. if a THOUSAND welfare queens do it, how much is it? $1M? $10M? and yet, we are perfectly comfortable with the defense fraud, and scream like a stuck pig over even ONE welfare queen. i would suggest that there is a reason for that. it has to do with who is in charge.
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Jul 19, 2013 11:55:49 GMT -5
I also find it hilarious when zib in particular participates in these discussions - because of how hypocritical her posts are. Anyone remember the thread where zib realized she wasn't making ends meet and had to go to her DF for an allowance. People who can't manage their own money, stupid losers who are entitled and living off someone else's dime... now where have we heard that before? bs, let's stick to the subject, ok? this is not about zib. though you may feel free to talk about the hipocrisy of selfish rich people talking about the selfish poor all you wish. I may feel free to talk about whatever I wish - my post is not against CoC.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2013 12:06:08 GMT -5
what is best for the "most" employees is ALWAYS staying operational i thought i made that very clear....but apparently not that is always my FIRST priority But within that, there are options I am sure. So is the SECOND priority people? Or is it maximizing profit with living breathing human beings third? not sure i can answer this so easily..... i use my 30 years of experience, my expertise in the field, and what i know to be standards used in operational groups but every business is unique.....and what works one place wont necessarily work someplace else maybe its the talent....maybe its the competition.....numerous reasons why this might be so but every owner wants a return on his/her investment....that is why i am there the results were not up to what the owners wanted....or thought could be achieved some of the time....they werent even profitable when i walked in the door so yes....getting to the black was a huge priority but people make or break any company.....if there is any one lesson i have learned in all my years it is this "surround yourself with talented people that CARE" i can train people in just about anything to do with my business....but i cant teach them work ethic, and i cant make them care
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 19, 2013 12:06:26 GMT -5
bs, let's stick to the subject, ok? this is not about zib. though you may feel free to talk about the hipocrisy of selfish rich people talking about the selfish poor all you wish. I may feel free to talk about whatever I wish - my post is not against CoC. you are free to do whatever you want, even in violation of the CoC. i have asked you, respectfully, to not do so. your choice.
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