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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Apr 17, 2013 19:16:09 GMT -5
So I go inside the door and lo and behold! No scooters available. I suck it up, grab a cart and let it be my leverage. During my travels through the aisles, I meet person after person on the scooters. And every single one of them was extremely overweight. Now I'm not judging those people. Some people are overweight because of another handicap that doesn't allow them to exercise - be it a breathing difficulty or bad knees, etc. And not all handicaps are discernable by looking at a person. BUT? In aisle 7, where I was picking up some sugar, along comes a lady from my church in a scooter. Now I KNOW there is nothing wrong with her other than being obese and lazy. And that pissed me off.
For over a year, this was the only way I could get around. Either this, or being wheeled in a wheelchair. More than once there were no scooters available.
It sucked big time. Once TD pushed my wheelchair and I pushed the cart. Another time, I used the cart as a walker (and it just about killed me). But you know what? I have absolutely no idea what goes on in someone else's life and as I have been blasted in parking legitimately in a h/c spot because I do not look handicapped, I am not going to judge anyone else. Mainly because it feels like crap when you have to defend yourself to people who have no idea as to your medical issues.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Apr 18, 2013 6:24:29 GMT -5
Mich - did you have three traveling companions who were able to easily go up and down two flights of stairs AND easily walk several hundred yards at the destination without assistance? My mother needed such help, and yes it sucked when she needed resources that were not available. So when I see a party of four traveling together who go to the head of a 45+ minute security line in wheel chairs and then don't request assistance at the destination, yes I will be suspicious. Or do you think the experts (the ones actually pushing the wheelchairs) are wrong and more than 1 in 10 do not abuse this?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 18, 2013 6:30:00 GMT -5
Uh, oh, I pushed DF around in a wheelchair this weekend because his leg was killing him. Yes, he could and would ask for a note from his doctor so when it acts up, we can park closer, but he won't. The only time I had an issue with it was when I dropped him off and then had to park in creepy area in the dark alone. Then I was VERY unhappy. This is befor I carried but still, I don't go around looking to put myself in unsafe areas.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Apr 18, 2013 10:12:52 GMT -5
If I ever fly with my grandmother or if she ever decides to live with us, I'm just going to buy a wheelchair. They have ones that are very light with smaller wheels that fold really small at Walgreens for under $100, and I could probably get one for even less on Craigslist. www.walgreens.com/store/c/nova-19-inch-steel-transport-chair-blue/ID=prod3487418-productAfter all, there's no way of knowing if they ever clean those things. A borrowed wheelchair could be a total germfest. (Note to self, bring sanitizing wipes next time I bring my grandma to the mall.)
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Apr 18, 2013 10:20:05 GMT -5
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Apr 18, 2013 10:21:48 GMT -5
Deleted by thecaptain - stupid double post!
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Apr 18, 2013 10:22:21 GMT -5
If I ever fly with my grandmother or of she decides to live with us, I'm just going to buy a wheelchair. They have some very lightweight ones that fold up really small at Walgreens for under $150 and I could probably get one even cheaper on Craigslist. www.walgreens.com/store/c/nova-19-inch-steel-transport-chair-blue/ID=prod3487418-product
After all, they probably never clean those borrowed ones. (Note to self, bring sanitizing wipes next time I bring my Grandma to the mall.)
Good Idea. Do you know if wheelchairs can be gate checked? Or even if they are allowed through airport security?
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Apr 18, 2013 10:25:46 GMT -5
Mich - did you have three traveling companions who were able to easily go up and down two flights of stairs AND easily walk several hundred yards at the destination without assistance? My mother needed such help, and yes it sucked when she needed resources that were not available. So when I see a party of four traveling together who go to the head of a 45+ minute security line in wheel chairs and then don't request assistance at the destination, yes I will be suspicious. Or do you think the experts (the ones actually pushing the wheelchairs) are wrong and more than 1 in 10 do not abuse this? No, I had one....TD. And companions go together, and have for as long as I can remember. When I went to Scotland with a coworker, she had organized wheelchair assistance and as we were her traveling companions, we (2 of us) followed along behind, getting through the front of the line even to go through immigrations. This was back in1990. When I just went home with TD flying with me, he went to the front of the line with me.....just like he did when he flew out with me over a year ago. This may be a clue though.....when we went to Turkey, they separated us by flying status. Despite him being a gold member and I wasn't, he went into another line. Airport security got REALLY pissed at us that we separated. I was supposed to go with him, or he was supposed to stay with me. I really didn't ask why, maybe comom has an idea. About your mom, unless she requested wheelchair assistance when she made her reservation, then it was her fault that the resources are not available. EVER SINGLE TIME I have flown with h/c assistance (twice during Christmas, when resources are scarce) I have had help....because I made arrangements beforehand. The first time, I had my reservations 3 months before my hip went south, so I called and modified my reservation a week before I flew. If your mom DID make reservations, then this is an issue that you need to take up with the airline. I've flown both United and Delta and both have excellent h/c services. I think you want to be pissed about this, when you yourself have never experienced how to use the service properly. Quite frankly, the use of h/c services by someone else is no more right for you to judge than you judging whether or not someone needs a h/c placard. And until you have been blasted because some well meaning person does not seem you h/c 'enough', then I really don't think you have a dog in this dogfight.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Apr 18, 2013 10:32:58 GMT -5
If I ever fly with my grandmother or of she decides to live with us, I'm just going to buy a wheelchair. They have some very lightweight ones that fold up really small at Walgreens for under $150 and I could probably get one even cheaper on Craigslist. www.walgreens.com/store/c/nova-19-inch-steel-transport-chair-blue/ID=prod3487418-product
After all, they probably never clean those borrowed ones. (Note to self, bring sanitizing wipes next time I bring my Grandma to the mall.)
Good Idea. Do you know if wheelchairs can be gate checked? Cheap wheelchairs are horribly uncomfortable to sit in for any length of time. I had a pretty expensive one and we still wound up having to buy a second, $400 cushion, for me to sit in it.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Apr 18, 2013 10:36:42 GMT -5
If I ever fly with my grandmother or of she decides to live with us, I'm just going to buy a wheelchair. They have some very lightweight ones that fold up really small at Walgreens for under $150 and I could probably get one even cheaper on Craigslist. www.walgreens.com/store/c/nova-19-inch-steel-transport-chair-blue/ID=prod3487418-product
After all, they probably never clean those borrowed ones. (Note to self, bring sanitizing wipes next time I bring my Grandma to the mall.)
Good Idea. Do you know if wheelchairs can be gate checked? Or even if they are allowed through airport security? Strollers can be, so I am assuming they would have to have the same policy for wheelchairs. I guess I'll have to double check before I fly. The one in the link folds up really small, so you could put it through those baggage screeners the same way you do with strollers.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Apr 18, 2013 10:57:35 GMT -5
If I ever fly with my grandmother or if she ever decides to live with us, I'm just going to buy a wheelchair. They have ones that are very light with smaller wheels that fold really small at Walgreens for under $100, and I could probably get one for even less on Craigslist. www.walgreens.com/store/c/nova-19-inch-steel-transport-chair-blue/ID=prod3487418-productAfter all, there's no way of knowing if they ever clean those things. A borrowed wheelchair could be a total germfest. (Note to self, bring sanitizing wipes next time I bring my grandma to the mall.) Seriously.....that wheelchair is useless, even for airports. The wheels are the problem and you won't be able to get it over any unevenness, like a doorway. The small wheels will hit any unevenness and come to a complete halt, catapulting your passenger onto the ground. Don't waste your money. Even with a regular wheelchair, you need the large wheels to get the chair over some things like large cracks. The first time that TD took me to the doctor, he had to back the wheelchair up to lower me over a wheelchair ramp with the large wheels first because even an inch was enough to cause a problem.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2013 11:01:21 GMT -5
I'd like to see more people who've actually had to use a wheelchair in a public place like a store or airport weigh in. Thanks Mich for adding more info from the other side of the discussion.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Apr 18, 2013 14:54:49 GMT -5
On one hand, one thing to keep in mind is disability is not always evident or visible. So I don't begrudge anyone with a handicap parking sticker who doesn't look disabled.
For example, my mother has a handicapped sticker for arthritas. But on a whole she can appear to walk fine, but after long walks can be in significant pain. So from the outside, she may not always appear to be "disabled."
On the other hand, I'm sure there are those out there who abuse the system.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 18, 2013 18:15:30 GMT -5
During a recent trip we had four!!! people wheel chaired to the gate for a regional flight. There were maybe about 36 people on the plane total. They had no problem walking up and down the stairs to the plane (regional flights board from the ground).
Hold the damn phone. Just because you can make it up a small flight of stairs does not mean you are up to walking all over an airport with heavy luggage in tow. What makes you think you know what kind of disability these people had which made walking for long periods with luggage difficult?
I personally know two people (one family member and one friend) who need wheelchair assistance in the airport due to the nature of their disability, but could have made it up the steps without assistance.
Please tell me this is a joke.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 18, 2013 18:28:10 GMT -5
For those who truly need it, no problem - anything to make your life at least a little bit easier. But as the article states, it appears the level of abuse is increasing.
WTF'ingF? Who is deciding whether they "truly need it" - YOU? Get over yourself!
um, doctors don't HAND out wheelchairs. They write a script for them based on the condition of the patient. And also keep in mind that people with handicap placards don't always have handicaps that are immediately visible at first glance. They are also given to people who are the primary transporters of disabled people.Thank you. Good lord, just because you can't SEE someone's disability doesn't make it nonexistent. I find it more than a little sad that so many people need this explained to them. Yes, there are scammers, and it can be annoying/frustrating - but I don't want to get into the habit of second-guessing others' handicaps.
Seriously. How about: it's none of your goddamn business why someone else is in a wheelchair?! I am very sensitive to abuse of handicap rights. My mother (before she died) was so breathing incapacitated she had to take an oxygen tank with her everywhere. She could not even walk the distance from the handicap spot to the front door without collapsing. In some cases there were no handicap spots available so I'd have to park illegally in front of the store and run in hoping there was a chair or cart available.
That's terrible (we experienced the same thing with my grandma so I know how much it sucks) but you have absolutely zero basis for believing that the people who had taken the spots already weren't legitimately handicapped. The issue is not "too many people are faking it," the issue is that there are not enough handicapped spots in many public places.
If the handicap spots were occupied by cars with no handicap permit, that's one thing. But if they had one, who the hell are you to assume that they were "faking" or less deserving than your mother?! In aisle 7, where I was picking up some sugar, along comes a lady from my church in a scooter. Now I KNOW there is nothing wrong with her other than being obese and lazy. And that pissed me off.
How do you know that? Did she tell you herself that she has zero medical issues requiring occasional help in the store? If not, you have no idea if she has "something wrong" with her or not. Just saw your response... she talks about wanting to go on a diet so that means she has no medical issues? How does that compute, exactly? If I talk about wanting to cut back my discretionary spending, does that mean I have a trust fund? Have you ever been impacted by waiting for a wheelchair or cart?
My disabled friend has been, and it never once even crossed her mind that the people who got the wheelchairs ahead of her didn't need them. She assumed that, like her, they had a legitimate need. Lord.....I hope you never need to use such help. It truly sucks.*hugs The Walk of the Penguin Mich* I'm sure it makes it worse to think that random assholes are judging whether or not you look "disabled enough" to require assistance. Quite frankly, the use of h/c services by someone else is no more right for you to judge than you judging whether or not someone needs a h/c placard. And until you have been blasted because some well meaning person does not seem you h/c 'enough', then I really don't think you have a dog in this dogfight.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 18, 2013 18:31:50 GMT -5
On the other hand, I'm sure there are those out there who abuse the system.
True of every assistance system there ever has been and ever will be. So we should just, what? Not help anyone because some people out there will find a way to take advantage of help they don't really need?
That makes perfect sense.
Certain bottom-feeders will ALWAYS try to game the system and access benefits they don't actually need that are intended for those who do need it. We don't cancel food stamps because some random asshole trades them for beer money - nor should we assume that a person in a wheelchair who doesn't "look disabled" is scamming the system.
Do any of you have any concept of how humiliating it is to need a wheelchair in public when you aren't obviously disabled?! I'm guessing not. Trust me, there are LOTS of disabled people who constantly push themselves past their physical limits at the expense of their own health because they're afraid to encounter judgment.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Apr 18, 2013 18:44:51 GMT -5
Preach it, Firebird! I agree with Mich that someone who has never been forced to use handicapped services has no dog in this hunt. It sucks being in a helpless or semi-helpless position.
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cronewitch
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Post by cronewitch on Apr 19, 2013 2:04:37 GMT -5
Heavy people can be handicapped too even not related to weight. I was heavy but still active but broke my leg in a hiking accident. I had a cast for 6 weeks after I got a metal plate put in so got a wheel chair because it was faster than using a walker shopping and I couldn't carry anything. I am sure people thought I should walk since I needed the exercise even with a cast. I had a young adult friend with MS, he looked fine but could only walk a block or so before resting, he would have looked like a faker.
Some loaner wheel chair users just didn't bring one on a trip if they had one or didn't need one at home. My dad could walk for a day or so then had to sit with his leg up for 3 days to recover. When he went to airports they got him a wheel chair, he could have walked but then not enjoyed his vacation at all. His sister was 80 and blind when he died and she flew in for the funeral, she left her wheel chair home so got one at the airports but spent the rest of the time just using a cane. She did fall and brake her hand because she wasn't really able to walk very well but she looked like she could.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Apr 19, 2013 6:46:07 GMT -5
On the other hand, I'm sure there are those out there who abuse the system.
True of every assistance system there ever has been and ever will be. So we should just, what? Not help anyone because some people out there will find a way to take advantage of help they don't really need? That makes perfect sense. Certain bottom-feeders will ALWAYS try to game the system and access benefits they don't actually need that are intended for those who do need it. We don't cancel food stamps because some random asshole trades them for beer money - nor should we assume that a person in a wheelchair who doesn't "look disabled" is scamming the system. Do any of you have any concept of how humiliating it is to need a wheelchair in public when you aren't obviously disabled?! I'm guessing not. Trust me, there are LOTS of disabled people who constantly push themselves past their physical limits at the expense of their own health because they're afraid to encounter judgment. What do we do? We weed out abuse, corruption and fraud. That is what. We can throw out the bath water without throwing out the baby. EVER other industry, business, etc has safeguards, laws, rules, eligibility requirements and so forth to do just that. Govt simply chooses to DO NOTHING because of its own ineptitude.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2013 7:34:54 GMT -5
you do realize that wheelchairs and such are paid for by the person's insurance company, right? Unless the person is on govt assistance, them having a wheelchair has ZERO impact on you and your tax dollars. And even if they were on govt assistance, would you rather them NOT have a wheelchair, hurt themselves further, and then require further medical treatments? Seems like we should hang a tag around every handicapped person's neck to state their disability and whether or not they are on govt assistance. Then at least people can direct their ire where it belongs. you know, a little compassion and the realization that you don't know every goddamn thing about everybody goes a long way.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Apr 19, 2013 8:20:24 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm wondering what exactly the government is supposed to do to combat the problem in the OP. Pass a law requiring airports to institute screening programs to ensure no one receives a wheelchair who doesn't have a doctor's note, and hire extra staff to implement it? I'm not a "small government" person but that sounds utterly ridiculous. How much cost is that going to add to your ticket, and how much longer will you have to wait in line? What happens when everyone who requests a wheelchair is legit but there still aren't enough? (Comom says they get hundreds of requests a day - weeding out the alleged 15% who don't need one probably isn't going to help much, especially as the US population gets older, heavier, and more in need of handicapped services.)
It seems to me that making more wheelchairs available would be a much simpler, cheaper, and less bureaucratic approach, but then I suppose we wouldn't get the satisfaction of shaming people we don't perceive as handicapped...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2013 8:28:41 GMT -5
Aren't the wheelchairs in the airports and the escorts provided by the airlines? Why would it be a government issue at all?
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 19, 2013 11:11:15 GMT -5
What do we do? We weed out abuse, corruption and fraud. That is what. We can throw out the bath water without throwing out the baby. EVER other industry, business, etc has safeguards, laws, rules, eligibility requirements and so forth to do just that. Govt simply chooses to DO NOTHING because of its own ineptitude. midjd and @moneyjenny82 beat me to it, but what do you want government to do about it? Any answer to that is going to cost YOU more money... so be careful what you wish for, you know? I'm astounded at the automatic assumption that if there aren't enough wheelchairs to go around, that MUST mean people are scamming the system. It couldn't POSSIBLY be that there aren't enough accommodations for the disabled. Noooo, because that answer wouldn't allow us to be the judgment police about who gets extra help and who doesn't! Do me a favor - spend a week in a wheelchair and then talk to me about how there are plenty of resources for the disabled to go around as long as you "really need" them. I'd be willing to bet money that wouldn't be your position after experiencing it firsthand. COMPLETELY RANDOM EXAMPLE OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD THAT AFFECTS ME NOT AT ALL: The train station from which I exit every morning for work has an elevator so that the wheelchair bound can get to ground zero safely. It is out of service at least half the time - probably even more, but I don't notice because it doesn't affect me.
If I were in a wheelchair, it would start affecting me pretty damn quick. I'd have to exit from another station (which would mean pushing my wheelchair much further once I exited the station). But first I'd have to find out the nearest station with a working elevator (they are ALL supposed to have them by law - see below - but they go out of service so often that this isn't the case). www.bart.gov/guide/accessibility/index.aspx If you visit that link, you can read about BART's suggestions for what to do if the elevator you need is out of service (under the section titled "Elevators"). Notice they are ALL massively inconvenient and would add AT LEAST 20-30 minutes to your commute, if not longer (remember, you're in a wheelchair - you probably can't roll as fast as an able-bodied person can walk, especially on a crowded street or if you're going uphill, both of which are typical in San Francisco). So I think we can drop this charming idea that every public area is totally accessible to wheelchair-bound people and provides plenty of accommodation in the form of loaner wheelchairs and parking spots to those who need them if only the nasty little sneaks wouldn't keep taking them in place of the truly deserving. The real issue here is that most of society isn't disabled and unfortunately, most of us don't give a shit about things that don't directly affect us.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 19, 2013 11:15:52 GMT -5
Now that I think about it 4-6 handicap parking spots at Wal-mart doesn't really cut it does it?
I doubt every person parking in them during the 24 hours, seven days a week Wal-mart is open are a scammers.
The library only has 4 and their parkiing lot is a PITA when you aren't handicapped.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 19, 2013 11:19:08 GMT -5
Now that I think about it 4-6 handicap parking spots at Wal-mart doesn't really cut it does it? You got it. And that's on a NORMAL day. Imagine trying to work your way through the Christmas rush in a wheelchair - after pushing yourself or having a friend push you all across the parking lot because there weren't enough disabled spots available.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 19, 2013 11:44:57 GMT -5
Well, I'm glad that I had it to push DF around when we needed it. Sometimes people can't walk around. That doesn't mean we need it all the time.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 19, 2013 11:53:56 GMT -5
No, but if you only need it sometimes (for example, when you're in a huge airport and have to walk a half-mile to your gate with heavy luggage in tow) you should be able to take the extra assistance without worrying about people judging you for it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2013 12:31:36 GMT -5
What do we do? We weed out abuse, corruption and fraud. That is what. We can throw out the bath water without throwing out the baby. EVER other industry, business, etc has safeguards, laws, rules, eligibility requirements and so forth to do just that. Govt simply chooses to DO NOTHING because of its own ineptitude. midjd and @moneyjenny82 beat me to it, but what do you want government to do about it? Any answer to that is going to cost YOU more money... so be careful what you wish for, you know? I'm astounded at the automatic assumption that if there aren't enough wheelchairs to go around, that MUST mean people are scamming the system. It couldn't POSSIBLY be that there aren't enough accommodations for the disabled. Noooo, because that answer wouldn't allow us to be the judgment police about who gets extra help and who doesn't! Do me a favor - spend a week in a wheelchair and then talk to me about how there are plenty of resources for the disabled to go around as long as you "really need" them. I'd be willing to bet money that wouldn't be your position after experiencing it firsthand. COMPLETELY RANDOM EXAMPLE OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD THAT AFFECTS ME NOT AT ALL: The train station from which I exit every morning for work has an elevator so that the wheelchair bound can get to ground zero safely. It is out of service at least half the time - probably even more, but I don't notice because it doesn't affect me.
If I were in a wheelchair, it would start affecting me pretty damn quick. I'd have to exit from another station (which would mean pushing my wheelchair much further once I exited the station). But first I'd have to find out the nearest station with a working elevator (they are ALL supposed to have them by law - see below - but they go out of service so often that this isn't the case). www.bart.gov/guide/accessibility/index.aspx If you visit that link, you can read about BART's suggestions for what to do if the elevator you need is out of service (under the section titled "Elevators"). Notice they are ALL massively inconvenient and would add AT LEAST 20-30 minutes to your commute, if not longer (remember, you're in a wheelchair - you probably can't roll as fast as an able-bodied person can walk, especially on a crowded street or if you're going uphill, both of which are typical in San Francisco). So I think we can drop this charming idea that every public area is totally accessible to wheelchair-bound people and provides plenty of accommodation in the form of loaner wheelchairs and parking spots to those who need them if only the nasty little sneaks wouldn't keep taking them in place of the truly deserving. The real issue here is that most of society isn't disabled and unfortunately, most of us don't give a shit about things that don't directly affect us. not to mention the people who seem to think that the dip on the sidewalk where people in wheelchairs descend to the street is a good place to park their cars.... or the people who back their truck beds up and block the sidewalk....
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Apr 19, 2013 13:13:09 GMT -5
On the other hand, I'm sure there are those out there who abuse the system.
True of every assistance system there ever has been and ever will be. So we should just, what? Not help anyone because some people out there will find a way to take advantage of help they don't really need? That makes perfect sense. Certain bottom-feeders will ALWAYS try to game the system and access benefits they don't actually need that are intended for those who do need it. We don't cancel food stamps because some random asshole trades them for beer money - nor should we assume that a person in a wheelchair who doesn't "look disabled" is scamming the system. Do any of you have any concept of how humiliating it is to need a wheelchair in public when you aren't obviously disabled?! I'm guessing not. Trust me, there are LOTS of disabled people who constantly push themselves past their physical limits at the expense of their own health because they're afraid to encounter judgment. Simmer down firebird. I said in the previous paragraph that you can't always tell that someone is disabled by looking at them. I'm just approaching this subject from a multifaceted perspective. I'm inclined to agree with you. Folks in wheelchairs who don't look like they need a wheelchair are not a big deal to me. I don't understand why people get up in arms over stuff like this, with airports and airplanes. I mean, you're stuck there for several hours anyway and as long as you're near your gate at boarding time it's not like the plane is going to leave without you. What's the rush? Flying anywhere is pretty much an all day experience. I think folks just need to relax. To thecaptain and others who get upset about it, I'd say that you are only hurting yourself by getting so worked up over it.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 19, 2013 13:23:04 GMT -5
I apologize, Phoenix84, I got a little heated there but my anger wasn't really directed at you. That small part of your remark just set me off because it represents a typical red herring argument offered by people who have nothing better to do than judge people who don't "look" disabled enough for them. I wouldn't put you in that category though, especially since you seem to grasp the fact that just because a person looks able-bodied does not mean that s/he is.
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