formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Mar 28, 2013 19:11:12 GMT -5
People are adversarial because often, being a dick is the only way to get common sense things done. Most of us have some idea of the insane pressures and inane policies that principals and teachers deal with and how they aren't allowed to do what is necessary to keep control of their classes. But when it comes down to being a dick to one or more adults and letting our children suffer, the choice is pretty clear.
As for not having to take our kids to public school, just where do you think they money for private school will come from? People pay top dollar for houses in a good school district, pay property taxes for years before their kids are in school, and then after paying all that money for a crappy product, they somehow are supposed to pull tens of thousands out of their butts for private school so that a teacher won't get stressed?
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Mar 28, 2013 19:22:19 GMT -5
former, I take stuff really personally, even though I try not to. Maybe you didn't mean it as such, but I don't know why you have to attack me. I've deleted my second post as I knew I crossed into the "taking it personal" area.
I do think calling all public schools a crappy product is uncalled for. I don't know even know what "so that a teacher won't get stressed" means.
I don't mind discussing the merits and disadvantages of public school and helping to explain from a public school employee's perspective, but I won't do so with such hositility.
I will acknowledge that mayby you didn't mean to be so hostile, but that's how I read it.
I'm going to make dinner now. Enjoy your evening.
~Chloe
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2013 19:27:49 GMT -5
My 4th grade daughter was recently bullied and it was of a sexual nature. (Butt getting fondled by classmate) Nothing was really happening till I called it Sexual harassment/assault and then it was immediately addressed.
I only reference this because I am of the opinion that unwanted physical contact, to include hitting, in a sexual area could be considered sexual assault. She might get more milage if she calls the school regarding sexual assault than she has been for bullying.
I really, really second this advice. DD was bullied in MS (not of a sexual nature). Sadly, some kids are bullies, and some get bullied, as hard as we parents try. In HS one day it turned sexual and the VERY INSTANT we called a spade a spade and called the HS at the crack of dawn to discuss how we were going to deal with this sexual harassment (because it WAS), both the Principal and Assistant Principal cleared their decks, saw us within 30 min of our phone call, spent well over an hour with us and DD, and it NEVER EVER EVER happened again.
There was one condition to the school defending DD, she had to file a police report. She did.
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grits
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Post by grits on Mar 28, 2013 20:29:25 GMT -5
The very fact that she is trying to kick him in the genitals makes it sexual assault, I do believe, I would talk to an attorney, and have them attend a meeting with me and the school board superintendent. If the assaults continue, file legal action against the school district.
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milee
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Post by milee on Mar 28, 2013 20:51:38 GMT -5
These are 7 and 8 year olds. The bullying needs to stop, but a graduated response and punishment approach is reasonable at this age. Missing recess was the first step. Talk to the school again and see what the next step is. If the school does nothing or just has the child miss another recess, then talk again about a more severe punishment. If the school doesn't escalate the punishments in a reasonable way, then it's time to consider going to the next level within the school system.
These parents are going to look crazy if they start going to an attorney or the superintendent the second time there is an incident involving 7/8 year olds. Your sister is more likely to get a good resolution and keep a good relationship with the teacher and the school if she is working with them and not going ballistic. It is serious and should be treated as such. Serious doesn't equal Threat Level 10 at incident #2, IMHO.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 28, 2013 20:54:01 GMT -5
These are 7 and 8 year olds. The bullying needs to stop, but a graduated response and punishment approach is reasonable at this age. Missing recess was the first step. Talk to the school again and see what the next step is. If the school does nothing or just has the child miss another recess, then talk again about a more severe punishment. If the school doesn't escalate the punishments in a reasonable way, then it's time to consider going to the next level within the school system. These parents are going to look crazy if they start going to an attorney or the superintendent the second time there is an incident involving 7/8 year olds. Your sister is more likely to get a good resolution and keep a good relationship with the teacher and the school if she is working with them and not going ballistic. It is serious and should be treated as such. Serious doesn't equal Threat Level 10 at incident #2, IMHO. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/yeahthat.gif) Calling out the attack dogs is overkill.
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grits
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Post by grits on Mar 28, 2013 20:59:25 GMT -5
she's already addressed it with the teacher, and has discussed it with the principal. If it doesn't stop, she needs to go higher fast. Well, unless you don't care if your son ever has children. One really well placed kicked can kill a testicle. Too bad he doesn't have a sister/cousin/friend a year older than the bully.
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milee
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Post by milee on Mar 28, 2013 21:09:33 GMT -5
she's already addressed it with the teacher, and has discussed it with the principal. If it doesn't stop, she needs to go higher fast. The OP described that the mother has had a single meeting with the teacher and principal. The teacher and principal responded with a punishment. As soon as the punishment ended, the behaviour happened again. Of course the parent needs to go back, but it's a little early to be talking about lawyers and superintendents. Again, these are 7/8 year olds who are still learning appropriate behaviour at that age. It's not unreasonable to allow the teacher/principal the chance to gradually increase the punishments and keep working with the kid. At 7/8, it's not reasonable to think a single discussion will instantly clear up any issues forevermore; it sometimes takes time and repeat reinforcement or punishment. The idea that a single chance is enough and if that single chance doesn't work that it would be appropriate for an older kid to attack the 7/8 year old bully is not appropriate and part of how bullies are created. It's a process and the school needs to be doing their part, and the parent needs to understand that it can take some time. Meantime, it's completely reasonable to ask that the teacher keep the kids separated whenever direct supervision isn't possible.
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milee
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Post by milee on Mar 28, 2013 21:23:53 GMT -5
Oh, and no matter what happens with this particular bully, the parents should also talk to the school about WTH is going on at recess. Sounds like there is inadequate supervision. It's reasonable that a kid might hit another kid without an adult noticing, but getting a group of kids to throw rocks?!? How the heck did an adult miss that? That would worry me. Recess shouldn't resemble Thunder Dome. The school needs more adults monitoring the playground.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Mar 28, 2013 21:33:35 GMT -5
I posted this from the OP. I agree that little kids can be rough and would not get upset at the first incedent. This isn't the first incedent though. This has escalated into her plus others throwing rocks during recess at him. This isn't one kid pushing another in the hall when there are loads of kids. Someone had a job to watch them and make sure they were safe. Clearly that didn't happen. At the very least they should have had constant eyes on him to make sure he was safe during recess. I can't believe that they just let them out all together and didn't make the effort to keep a good watch on them.
And yeah if it was my kid and after complaining they let her do it again, I wouldn't talk to the school again. I would press charges with the police. The girl doing this is bad, but understandable given her age. The fact that the school is allowing it to happen is totally unacceptable.
Milee posted while I was doing mine but I was thinking it sounded like Lord of the Flies. The adults need to take back control of the island.
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milee
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Post by milee on Mar 28, 2013 21:41:32 GMT -5
It isn't the first incident, but it's the first time that the parent has discussed it with the school. That's what I'm responding to. If it's the first time the school is hearing about it, it's reasonable to give them some time to work on it. Of course, that would include better supervision at recess no matter what is going on between these two kids.
But again, you look crazy going to the police if this is the second reported incident between 7/8 year olds.
BTW, if the parent had been reporting each incident as it happened (Incident #1 - verbal bullying. #2 - hitting. #3 - kicking. #4 - throwing rocks) and the school did nothing, I'd be ballistic as well. But that's not what is being described. The OP says the parent just discussed it with the school.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2013 21:47:35 GMT -5
Personally, I don't think you should get to stone a kid twice...
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Mar 28, 2013 22:05:43 GMT -5
I'd say it would depend on an incident. 7 or 17, if "you" throw rocks, your next one might hit on a head or face - call me crazy - I would rather not wait for that. And I don't care how crazy I might look - I think missing recess for hitting a child in private areas is not enough of a punishment/consequences, so yes, if that was the only response the school had - I would be escalating the issue immediately.
Also, I can understand proper channels escalation in various circumstances, but when it comes to bullying, I think time is of the essence.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Mar 29, 2013 6:58:16 GMT -5
I don't think the 7 or 8 year old should go to jail but parents are responsible for what their kids do. If this girl had taken a rock and thrown it threw my window breaking it I wouldn't give the parents two chances. I would say something the first time and they would pay for the replacement of my window. If they didn't fix it I would call the police and I seriously doubt the police would find me crazy for doing it.
So why is a window not allowed to have rocks thrown at it, but my kid is?
If this was verbal bullying or general pushing and shoving that little kids engage in I would give more leway, but throwing rocks isn't. They got their shot to fix it, and clearly they failed.
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happyscooter
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Post by happyscooter on Mar 29, 2013 7:09:54 GMT -5
Some schools you can't even play tag or dodgeball anymore for fear of a kid getting hurt. But she can throw rocks and kick him? Sorry, but a visit to the principal is needed AGAIN. And it's possible that her parents don't even know this. If a teacher has to send a note home every time a child is 'disciplined'-sit in a corner, sit out recess, sit alone at lunch, that's alot of notes for a teacher with 27-28 kids.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 29, 2013 8:26:20 GMT -5
I'm assuming this is recess and not PE? Because I can tell you at PE very good supervision is required. When DD got bullied it was because her PE teacher was reading a magazine instead of watching his kids. Don't ask. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/angry.png) Because I saw this and knew this, I was very clear to him that I expected him to stand up for DD in order for me to keep my mouth shut about his "supervision" and he did.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 29, 2013 8:50:13 GMT -5
If the guidance counselers are any good she could start by talking to them, they have to operate under the same rules as a regular therapist, anything her son says has to stay in the office. She could set up a meeting between them, her and her son.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 29, 2013 8:52:46 GMT -5
Hopefully, he will get over it. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/sad.png)
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Mar 29, 2013 9:42:14 GMT -5
These are 7 and 8 year olds. The bullying needs to stop, but a graduated response and punishment approach is reasonable at this age. Missing recess was the first step. Talk to the school again and see what the next step is. If the school does nothing or just has the child miss another recess, then talk again about a more severe punishment. If the school doesn't escalate the punishments in a reasonable way, then it's time to consider going to the next level within the school system. These parents are going to look crazy if they start going to an attorney or the superintendent the second time there is an incident involving 7/8 year olds. Your sister is more likely to get a good resolution and keep a good relationship with the teacher and the school if she is working with them and not going ballistic. It is serious and should be treated as such. Serious doesn't equal Threat Level 10 at incident #2, IMHO. Good point. No need to pull out all the stops at this point. This could be an isolated incicent and next week these kids will be best friends.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Mar 29, 2013 10:04:21 GMT -5
Some schools you can't even play tag or dodgeball anymore for fear of a kid getting hurt. But she can throw rocks and kick him? Sorry, but a visit to the principal is needed AGAIN. And it's possible that her parents don't even know this. If a teacher has to send a note home every time a child is 'disciplined'-sit in a corner, sit out recess, sit alone at lunch, that's alot of notes for a teacher with 27-28 kids. The last few years my stepdad was teaching, one of the kids he was teaching was throwing pebbles at him during class. He ignored it, because the slimy idiot principal and school board had taken away all the methods of discipline and standards and because male teachers faced a witch hunt atmosphere. When the kid started throwing rocks at other kids, the other kids parents were furious, and it was only then that something was done about the rock throwing kid. By the way, this was in a school in a nice little bedroom community. Chloe, I'm well aware of the incredible stress teachers are under. But no matter how wonderful the school is, a kid who is being constantly bullied isn't going to learn much and will likely end up with emotional problems. Most parents don't have an extra $10k lying around for private school, especially if they have paid top dollar for a house in a good school district and years of taxes to support the school. The teachers union has fought tooth and nail against any form of voucher system. THEY DON'T WANT PARENTS TO HAVE A CHOICE. They want as many kids as possible to be in the public schools, even ones that are dysfunctional and dangerous. So when you said 'Just send him someplace else' it really got my ire up. If the NEA is going to create a situation where most parents have no choice but to send their kids to the neighborhood school, it shouldn't suprise anybody when parents get downright nasty when the forced monopoly isn't working out well for their kids. I feel bad that innocent teachers, many of whom don't agree with the policies of the NEA, but the situation is what it is.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 29, 2013 10:29:53 GMT -5
No, teachers do not want feral children in their classrooms but those kids and their parents have all the power. Only when another parent threatens to sue can the school do anything at all about a feral child.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Mar 29, 2013 12:16:18 GMT -5
I'm assuming this is recess and not PE? Because I can tell you at PE very good supervision is required. When DD got bullied it was because her PE teacher was reading a magazine instead of watching his kids. Don't ask. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/angry.png) Because I saw this and knew this, I was very clear to him that I expected him to stand up for DD in order for me to keep my mouth shut about his "supervision" and he did. I remember one time at recess, a group of boys took a jumprope, tied a little girl to the monkey bars, and pulled the ropes so tight she couldn't breathe. The whole class was there, cheering them on, and our teacher was sitting there 15 feet away, having a grand old time laughing and talking with another teacher. I finally went over there and asked her if she was going to do something about it. The teacher gave the whole class a slap on the wrist, including me and the victim. It was my chance to be one of those kids with 'good social skills' and I blew it. Oh well.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 29, 2013 13:10:37 GMT -5
Recess is an ongoing issue with teachers. They hate that duty and PE refuses to get stuck with it.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Mar 29, 2013 13:47:26 GMT -5
The measure of response by the principle and if you should give them a second chance or not would depend on the extent of the injuries.
If the kid is getting seriously hurt then no, I don't think the principle should get a second chance to "make it right." I agree with oped I wouldn't let my kid get stoned on the playground twice. I can understand taking a measured response initially, but throwing rocks and kicking in the groin can cause serious and permanent injury. I'd rather not wait until the kid gets serious brain inury, has an eye put out, or is unable to have children to start taking it seriously.
If it were just pushing and shoving, and cuts and bruises maybe a more measured response is in order, but getting it sounds like the physical abuse is serious enough to warrent more drastic response.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Mar 29, 2013 21:00:00 GMT -5
Given the balanced, healthy, rational individual I am today, this may come as a surprise; I was bullied quite a bit from 4th through 7th grade. In a strange sense, you may be getting a glimpse of what the future could hold for that boy.
I regret how scared I was to defend myself. Whether or not it was because I didn't think I could win, or that I thought I wasn't supposed to, or maybe that I deserved what I was getting, I can't say.
I understand that violence isn't the answer. I understand that there is a tangled web of legal and procedural red tape to deal with.
To that end, I completely understand teaching a kid that you shouldn't start fights, but you can sure finish them.
I agree that threatening lawsuits, or getting on the news, or posting the story and principal's picture on twitter is not the appropriate response at this point in the game. I'm not suggesting sitting back and waiting until the kid really gets hurt, but hopefully if you treat them reasonably they will work with you. I'm sure some people won't bother to work with "that" parent, purely because they know that the parent is going to go up the chain anyway.
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