quince
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Post by quince on Mar 13, 2013 16:07:28 GMT -5
People can change- you can't change people.
People change even if you don't want them to. Nothing is static.
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Jaguar
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Post by Jaguar on Mar 13, 2013 16:14:05 GMT -5
I've changed in major ways with my thinking. I'm happier now that I took control of my own life, in other words I'm happier that I'm more responsible for my own life.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2013 16:21:18 GMT -5
I agree that the pain of leaving things as they are has to be greater than the difficulty of changing to make a person willing to do the work. The most miserable years of my life forced me to look at myself and my life because I never wanted to be that miserable again if I could help it.
It wasn't one simple thing that I could fix to make my life better. My problems were interconnected so I had to work on several things. Most of it boiled down to learning more about myself and life, and changing some attitudes and beliefs I had. It's not easy dealing with yourself and your flaws, but the only other choice for me was to keep living in misery. I was never a horrible person so from the outside, my life looks pretty much the same, but I've changed a great deal and I'm a little wiser now. And I'll always be a work in progress, it's not over yet.
I've been pretty open that finding these boards helped me change the way I handle money, but at the same time I was working on that, I was also changing my life. That's why I sometimes tell posters here that what appears to be just money problems are actually deeper problems. The money issues are often just a symptom of something deeper. Because that's how it was for me, I can recognize it when I see it in others.
What's ironic (is that the right word here? lol) is that I started on that path because I was trying to "fix" my kids. We started family counseling and while I was trying to help them, I learned that I needed some help myself. That wasn't what I expected lol.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 13, 2013 16:26:42 GMT -5
I have learned a lot from these boards and even from some of the posters. I have always wondered about the sense of entitlement that some people have especially when it comes to taxpayer money. Even though it still annoys the hell out of me, I now realize there are really people who think that the govt and taxpayers owe them a living. I also have put into place a lot of tough love and better ways of managing my money. BOTH have made me happier.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Mar 13, 2013 16:39:49 GMT -5
"Another guy would go home "sick" any time he was assigned a job he didn't like. After a few years here, he had no sick leave. Then his daughter was born 14 weeks premature. He didn't have the sick leave to cover himself, so he took what he could as advanced sick leave or LWOP, but he had to come back to work much sooner than he wanted to. BUT... guess who quit going home at the drop of a hat? It was just no longer an option for him, so he had to change."
Not that I'd condone it in that particular situation, but wouldn't this guy have qualified for the leave donation program?
I've never participated in it myself (either giving or receiving) but every once and a while they'll send out e-mails asking for leave donations for someone out of sick leave.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Mar 13, 2013 21:34:39 GMT -5
"Another guy would go home "sick" any time he was assigned a job he didn't like. After a few years here, he had no sick leave. Then his daughter was born 14 weeks premature. He didn't have the sick leave to cover himself, so he took what he could as advanced sick leave or LWOP, but he had to come back to work much sooner than he wanted to. BUT... guess who quit going home at the drop of a hat? It was just no longer an option for him, so he had to change." Not that I'd condone it in that particular situation, but wouldn't this guy have qualified for the leave donation program? I've never participated in it myself (either giving or receiving) but every once and a while they'll send out e-mails asking for leave donations for someone out of sick leave. Our place has leave donation, but it is specifically not requested for people who have wasted their sick days. I think it has to be approved on an individual basis... I've only seen it once in almost 4 years (for 200+ people). I can see this guy not qualifying if they know he was just skipping out on work.
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susanb
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Post by susanb on Mar 13, 2013 22:48:08 GMT -5
The general vibe I get from this message board is that people don't change. It doesn't matter if it's in the context of relationships, money, habbits, or whatever.
For example, it doesn't happen as much anymore, but when someone posts about marrital or relationship problems, the advice seems to be leave them because they'll never change.
Usually when people suggest this it is because the significant other isn't interested in changing and/or doesn't recognize a problem. It is pretty much impossible for someone to change if they don't want to, and, as others have pointed out, you can't make them want change. As far as personal change... DH and I have both changed how we communicate. We both used to lose our tempers and yell in arguments. We were so busy blaming each other and defending ourselves that neither of us would listen. We still argue, we just do it with a lot more respect and we usually stay solution focused instead of blame focused. Also, I used to be very shy. In high school and college I broke out in hives when I had to do a presentation. Teaching quickly changed my response to being in front of an audience. It became normal and even comfortable. I am still shy, but my behavior doesn't betray that, to the point that people don't believe me if I tell them I am shy. Right now what I would like to change is how I manage my time. There are a lot of things that I would like to learn about and do, but lately I have been wasting time. Hmmm...I guess I should get off my computer and go read.
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Apple
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Post by Apple on Mar 13, 2013 23:18:30 GMT -5
"Another guy would go home "sick" any time he was assigned a job he didn't like. After a few years here, he had no sick leave. Then his daughter was born 14 weeks premature. He didn't have the sick leave to cover himself, so he took what he could as advanced sick leave or LWOP, but he had to come back to work much sooner than he wanted to. BUT... guess who quit going home at the drop of a hat? It was just no longer an option for him, so he had to change." Not that I'd condone it in that particular situation, but wouldn't this guy have qualified for the leave donation program? I've never participated in it myself (either giving or receiving) but every once and a while they'll send out e-mails asking for leave donations for someone out of sick leave. He may have, BUT, he was at least "responsible" enough (not sure what word to use there, responsible doesn't sound right) to figure out that his poor choices should not put others in a situation to cover him. I think he knew he abused the sick leave program and people would notice. He decided that since he dug that hole for himself it was on him to "do the right thing". (if he had had to go over his allowed advanced leave, he may have tried to go on donated though). I've seen it several times. We have one girl who would do the same type of thing, then she maxed out her credit cards to take her and her kids to New York (we live in Oregon)--she also took her daughter's friend (she has 3 or 4 kids). She did this right before elective surgery that put her out for a couple weeks, then asked for donated leave after she came back to work. They actually approved her. She did it again later, and bought a brand new truck while she was on donated leave (she is the second person to do that--another guy bought a new motorcycle). Then we had another person at another location who had a hysterectomy (she was mid-20s), got on donated leave, then went to Mexico on vacation, while ON donated leave. When she came back and bragged about her vacation, some people questioned it and she said "well, the doctor said I couldn't go to work, he didn't say I couldn't go on vacation". I've never participated in donated leave either (giving, or receiving, because so far no one to make that program has "earned" my vacation time). There are some people and some situations I could see myself giving, but they haven't happened yet. As far as the original guy goes, several of us did decide to "pass an envelope" to help lesson the fear of bills while he couldn't work. He's a good guy, he was just really young and immature with his leave. Anyway, the second two people have the entitled "people owe me" attitude. That has not changed for either one, there is always someone willing to bail them out (with New York girl... her husband left her a month or two before Christmas, her crew "took up a collection" for her because she asked people for money, and they gave her over $4000. Her husband moved back in in January, she kept the money. This was less than a year after my husband left, but I didn't try to take a dime from anyone--actually, very few people knew until the divorce was final and I changed my name back several months later). She got guys to "pencil whip" her OJTs, her training documents, evaluations, cheated her way through school, etc. It took 11 years, but they finally demoted her to a non-craft position (she was lucky she wasn't fired, but she tried to file an EEO lawsuit saying she got demoted because she's a girl). She has used worker's comp to get plastic surgery on her face and a nose job, and then she used it to get shoulder surgery (she hurt herself outside of work, but got a new doctor who said she had been "mis-diagnosed", so somehow the injury migrated from her face to her shoulder. I told the guys they needed to hurt my arm so I could go get lipo-suction and a breast lift.) She's figured out it works, and as long as it does, she'll never change.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2013 23:42:18 GMT -5
If you talked to my family they would tell you I have changed a lot. If you ask me I haven't. This is who I am, for some reason they can see it now when they couldn't before. I did have bad habits that I changed, but I changed them because they didn't fit with what I want to accomplish in life. I learned what my self defeating behaviours were and stopped doing them. I also learned what I needed to do to get where I wanted to be. But none of that was a change to who I am. Who I am dictated what behavioural changes I made.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2013 11:17:36 GMT -5
The essence of a person's personality will never change. How that behavior is channeled is another story. You can channel your behavior into many different avenues that allow you to be the most productive that you can be or allow yourself to be a depressing loser. That is the really exciting part about life is understanding your strengths and weaknesses and tailoring life to extentuate the strengths and to shore up the weaknesses. I'm going to have to say IHOP hit this one right on the screws. Take the example of the addict. The addict with the strong character will learn to overcome the addictive behavior although he/she may never really lose the addiction. The addict with the weaker underlying character learns to give into the addictive behavior. You can't change the addiction but you can change the reaction to it. That being said it is extremely hard to change even a reaction. In my experience most people don't have the sufficient character wherewithal to do it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2013 10:47:50 GMT -5
You can be educated to learn new ways of doing things. But people do not change their fundamental values. Values are embedded during your youth and don't change. Your values guide how you set standards of honesty, integrity, courage, responsibility, compassion, fairness, right vs wrong, morals and ethics. You need to understand if a behavior originates from values or knowledge before you can judge someone's ability to change long term.
Cheaters don't stop cheating, they don't see anything wrong with what they are doing. They can become adept at covering up once they become aware that it is not socially acceptable, however it does not change their belief that there is nothing wrong with cheating.
Liars don't stop lying, they think it is the normal way to interact with others. They learn to simplify or get more careful so as not to get caught.
Compassionate people that put others above themselves in all situations still do that, even when they've been hurt because of it.
Addicts can fight addictive behaviors but I honestly think that is more medical/genetic in nature and has nothing to do with values. Same as mental health issues - medical, not choice.
At least that is the basis of when I say someone can or can't change.
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motherto2
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Post by motherto2 on Mar 17, 2013 11:32:24 GMT -5
I think people can change, but it has to come from within. You can't change another. Alot of change comes from maturity as you progress through life. As a teen, you are totally absorbed in yourself and your friends. As a young 20 something, that continues, but you add in some responsibility. As you progress through the stages of life, like a significant other or marriage, children, increasing responsibility in your job, you change because you want to, or sometimes because you have to. But you do change. When people are together, if they don't change at approximately the same rate, trouble can begin. The ex and I dated for 3-4 years before we got married. I'm almost 100% positive that he stepped out on me from time to time, but I didn't have a detective tailing him for that concrete evidence. We finally married and had 2 kids. Most people mature at that time to realize it is your responsibility to put your small children's needs before your wants. I did, he didn't. I'm absolutely 100% sure he stepped out on me while married at leas once (one of the big reasons we ended up splitting up), and have a feeling it happened more than with that one person. No proof though, but the radar was working in overdrive from time to time . I finally realized that when he told me he was still unhappy (after trying to rebuild our relationship) I knew it wasn't ever going to change, because he wasn't willing. I have realized the last few months that he still hasn't changed, because some of the "advice" he's been trying to give our 20 yo son. Thankfully, DS has been basically raised by me and DD, and he is actually very resentful and put off by the "advice" he's been given. In a way, I feel like I was able to help DS not fall into the same issues his father and grandfather fell into. I have been giving him a lot of talks on choices, because he's worried he'll end up like his father. I think as long as he remembers alot of things in life are a result of our choices, he'll be ok.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 18, 2013 10:11:17 GMT -5
Amen. It isn't easy and I have to sometimes fight my inner self constantly but I want to change how I interact with certain people, so I work on it. Inside I'm screaming, outside I'm not.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Mar 18, 2013 10:18:14 GMT -5
Sometimes that's the case. But often, the advice is to go to counciling to deal with the issues. And when people do council for divorce, it is usually in cases where it is clear that the other person doesn't want to change.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 18, 2013 10:22:58 GMT -5
Especially when someone posts the same issue over and over again. DS and his girlfriend are on the outs now. It may be permanent, don't know and trying not to care. We all like her but we don't have to live with her and he would. But when he was telling me some of his issues with her, they were honestly no big deal, so there was ANOTHER deeper issue that he wasn't telling me. Maybe a counselor could get to it, maybe not. Maybe DS pushes her buttons so that she reacts in a way that upsets him. I did suggest that because passive aggressive people are pros at that!
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KaraBoo
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Post by KaraBoo on Mar 18, 2013 15:45:06 GMT -5
I think people can change, but I agree that it rarely happens. It's hard work. I'm trying to change. I tend to blow up at the drop of a hat, and I am learning to calm my reactions and take responsibility for them. It's been a few months and it seems to be going well. Not to say I haven't blown up a time or two, but I recognize them fast and actively work to calm myself down. And then spend the rest of the day staying away from "the edge". I also have been living with a "victim" mentality the last few years. Recognizing that I am responsible for my own actions, that I am not a victim, and that I have control over how I react to this particular situation has been HARD! Like really, really hard. But life is so much better for it. I'm actually happier. (Who'd a thunk it?!) So yes, I think people can change. If they want it bad enough. Lucy - I'm very interested in what made you come to the realization that you had a "victim" mentality and what you did to change your thinking on this? I'm interested because a couple of my step-kids think along these same lines and they get it from their mom (kids live with us full-time now and have for almost the last 6 years). I'd like to help them understand that they are responsible for their own actions, but since I'm having a hard time understanding the mentality, I feel lost to help them in any meaningful way. Any insight you might have would be welcomed!
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 19, 2013 8:51:28 GMT -5
Lucy, if I could give you karma, I would.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2013 9:16:29 GMT -5
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Mar 19, 2013 11:27:52 GMT -5
I think people can change, but it has to come from within. You can't change another. Alot of change comes from maturity as you progress through life. As a teen, you are totally absorbed in yourself and your friends. As a young 20 something, that continues, but you add in some responsibility. As you progress through the stages of life, like a significant other or marriage, children, increasing responsibility in your job, you change because you want to, or sometimes because you have to. But you do change. When people are together, if they don't change at approximately the same rate, trouble can begin. The ex and I dated for 3-4 years before we got married. I'm almost 100% positive that he stepped out on me from time to time, but I didn't have a detective tailing him for that concrete evidence. We finally married and had 2 kids. Most people mature at that time to realize it is your responsibility to put your small children's needs before your wants. I did, he didn't. I'm absolutely 100% sure he stepped out on me while married at leas once (one of the big reasons we ended up splitting up), and have a feeling it happened more than with that one person. No proof though, but the radar was working in overdrive from time to time . I finally realized that when he told me he was still unhappy (after trying to rebuild our relationship) I knew it wasn't ever going to change, because he wasn't willing. I have realized the last few months that he still hasn't changed, because some of the "advice" he's been trying to give our 20 yo son. Thankfully, DS has been basically raised by me and DD, and he is actually very resentful and put off by the "advice" he's been given. In a way, I feel like I was able to help DS not fall into the same issues his father and grandfather fell into. I have been giving him a lot of talks on choices, because he's worried he'll end up like his father. I think as long as he remembers alot of things in life are a result of our choices, he'll be ok. Motherto2, I take issue with your assessment that maturity and being married/having kids is mutually exclusive. Not every single childless person is self absorbed and immature with no responsibility. Having kids and getting married are not the only path to maturity and wisdom.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Mar 19, 2013 11:31:59 GMT -5
Sometimes that's the case. But often, the advice is to go to counciling to deal with the issues. And when people do council for divorce, it is usually in cases where it is clear that the other person doesn't want to change. Intersting. Rukh's post to WWBG is also interesting. It does take a certain kind of hubris to think others should change to suit us. I'm not saying it's always wrong to expect someone else to change, but I think Rukh is right in thinking that's a tall order to expect someone to change to suit us, and you really need to evaluate if that's fair to them.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Mar 19, 2013 11:48:41 GMT -5
Pheonix, in the case of WBBG, there is a history. He's spent years forcing his girlfriend to change, complaining to us about her, and not listening when we told him that they probably weren't compatable.
When you're just dating, this is the time to ask the hard questions, see if you're compatable on the big things, and then move on if you aren't. An awful lot of people date, ignore dealbreakers or just don't find out about them, fall head over heels in love, and then spend years trying to change the person because they are in LOOOve. This is a recipe for divorce. WBBG may have beaten his wife into submission, but I doubt he's really changed her.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Mar 19, 2013 13:18:09 GMT -5
Good for you, Lucy.
You illustrate a very good point about being able to change - you have to have insight about yourself. By that I mean you have to be able to step back from yourself and imagine what you would think about yourself, if you were a different person, watching your actions.
Lucy you have this ability, and this has made you realize that your thought process sometimes move into the 'poor me' victim mode. Because you recognize this, you can alter it.
I know some other people (one of my siblings, and my mom, for instance) who are firmly set in their victim mentality and I don't think they will ever break out of that. Ironically, both have been very blessed, both financially and with great families, but if you were to sit and listen to either one talk about themselves, you would get the impression that their lives are very hard, because the rest of the world is always working against them.
I'm 53 and I've changed some things in my life in positive directions, but I admit there are things I would like to modify and don't seem to be able to - possibly these are things that are simply part of my personality. Can't stop being introverted, for instance, but I can learn how to behave in a social manner when required.
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motherto2
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Post by motherto2 on Mar 19, 2013 17:54:23 GMT -5
I think people can change, but it has to come from within. You can't change another. Alot of change comes from maturity as you progress through life. As a teen, you are totally absorbed in yourself and your friends. As a young 20 something, that continues, but you add in some responsibility. As you progress through the stages of life, like a significant other or marriage, children, increasing responsibility in your job, you change because you want to, or sometimes because you have to. But you do change. When people are together, if they don't change at approximately the same rate, trouble can begin. The ex and I dated for 3-4 years before we got married. I'm almost 100% positive that he stepped out on me from time to time, but I didn't have a detective tailing him for that concrete evidence. We finally married and had 2 kids. Most people mature at that time to realize it is your responsibility to put your small children's needs before your wants. I did, he didn't. I'm absolutely 100% sure he stepped out on me while married at leas once (one of the big reasons we ended up splitting up), and have a feeling it happened more than with that one person. No proof though, but the radar was working in overdrive from time to time . I finally realized that when he told me he was still unhappy (after trying to rebuild our relationship) I knew it wasn't ever going to change, because he wasn't willing. I have realized the last few months that he still hasn't changed, because some of the "advice" he's been trying to give our 20 yo son. Thankfully, DS has been basically raised by me and DD, and he is actually very resentful and put off by the "advice" he's been given. In a way, I feel like I was able to help DS not fall into the same issues his father and grandfather fell into. I have been giving him a lot of talks on choices, because he's worried he'll end up like his father. I think as long as he remembers alot of things in life are a result of our choices, he'll be ok. Motherto2, I take issue with your assessment that maturity and being married/having kids is mutually exclusive. Not every single childless person is self absorbed and immature with no responsibility. Having kids and getting married are not the only path to maturity and wisdom.
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motherto2
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Post by motherto2 on Mar 19, 2013 17:56:58 GMT -5
Sorry, technical issues. Phoenix, obviously you didn't read my post very carefully, or maybe I didn't make it clear. Those were examples, types of things that naturally change people as they progress through life, meaning as we become more responsible, we start looking into ourselves, and change accordingly. Or not. But it has to come from within.
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