Another Food Stamp Thread...

[movingforward]

"Making people buy a certain brand name of formula is not a concern for the welfare of people, it’s that company has enough clout to make the politicians put them on the list and force out the cheaper formula company."

Politicians are bought and sold in the US.  It is scary how many laws are passed in the legislature based on the "donations" of certain companies.  Large companies also have lots of money to hire lobbyists.  I have seen it happen time and time again in my place of business.  Corporations run our country.  We as people actually seem to have very little power. 

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Corporations run our country

P&M would tell you this is a good thing. Free Market!

[swamp]

Mar 12, 2013 13:49:33 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

Corporations run our country

P&M would tell you this is a good thing. Free Market! [img]http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png[/img]

But they only have our best interests at heart!

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

But they only have our best interests at heart!

Of course they do! Every decision they make is what is best for the American people. It has nothing to do with their bottom line.

They wouldn’t do anything misleading/illegal in order to increase their profits. People will just not use their business if they don’t like how it is run.

Of course when you only have four companies to choose from that kinda limits your boycott options. . .

[The Captain]

The food companies you're discussing produce mostly processed foods.  Yes I agree they have too much say in the US nutritional programs but that's only for processed foods and does not impact most scratch cooking type ingredients. 

There is still decent competition at the base level for things fruits and veggies.  The egg, milk, and other dairy producers have seen a lot of consolidation in the past few decades so there is far less real competition than there used to be and a lot more influence in congress.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

. There is still decent competition at the base level for things fruits and veggies.

Not really. While it might say a different name on the package most farms are contracted by the larger food manufacturers.

one of the bigger names.

The meat industry is even worse.

There is competition out there I will give you that, but those that are actual independent farms that aren't contracted by one of the larger companies aren't big enough to be lobbyists in Congress

[Deleted]

I watched a documentary recently that said ZERO bills in the US are still written by anyone but a lobbyist.


yro.slashdot.org/story/10/10/02/2038241/the-laws-are-written-by-lobbyists-says-googles-schmidt


"'The average American doesn't realize how much of the laws are written by lobbyists' to protect incumbent interests, Google CEO Eric Schmidt told Atlantic editor James Bennet at the Washington Ideas Forum. 'It's shocking how the system actually works.' In a wide-ranging interview that spanned human nature, the future of machines, and how Google could have helped the stimulus, Schmidt said technology could 'completely change the way government works.' 'Washington is an incumbent protection machine,' Schmidt said. 'Technology is fundamentally disruptive.' Mobile phones and personal technology, for example, could be used to record the bills that members of Congress actually read and then determine what stimulus funds were successfully spent."

[973beachbum]

Mar 12, 2013 14:40:42 GMT -5 The Captain said:

The food companies you're discussing produce mostly processed foods.  Yes I agree they have too much say in the US nutritional programs but that's only for processed foods and does not impact most scratch cooking type ingredients. 

There is still decent competition at the base level for things fruits and veggies.  The egg, milk, and other dairy producers have seen a lot of consolidation in the past few decades so there is far less real competition than there used to be and a lot more influence in congress.

To me the probelm with the FS's though is that the people receiving FS don't live an average life.  If they did they probably wouldn't be on FS.

The person who lives in a city with no grocery stores, I know of one pretty close to me, has to either have access to a car or being able to spend one day on a bus to get to one.  The only other alternative is to use the corner market.  Those places don't have much in the way of ingredients for scratch cooking.  While I can buy milk and eggs at WaWa, I doubt they have any meat that isn't luch meat.  I'm sure the rural poor have their own set of different problems.  I just don't live in a rural area to understand them.

My problem with these things trying to tighten the ability of people to scam the system is that scammers will almost always find a way to scam.  It just seems to hurt the non scammers way more.  I may be a bleeding heart but I am not willing to screw 10 people for every scammer I stop. 

[The Captain]

Beachbum,

I appreciate your prespective and understand it may apply in some cases.  This is not a thread about scammers, etc.  It's about if it is impossible to eat a relatively healthy died on FS. I understand in some cases someone may live in a "food desert" and not have access to reasonably priced healthy food.  However, if they have access to junk food then I argue that if the system were changed to only cover healthy food then the providers of the junk food would be forced to start providing healthy food as well. 

I can only draw on my experiences.  I've made no secret of the fact that I live in the metro Chicago area (the area where the term food desert was coined).  There is an extensive public transportation system between the suburbs and the city.  In addition, the public transportation in the city is such that many do not own cars since they are not necessary (two of my employees do not own cars).  We have multiple ethnic grocery stores that can be reached within an hours travel each way, with many embedded in poorer areas (I know, I shop at some ).   I actually grew up on the south side (which if you're from the area know that is the "wrong" side of the tracks) in an area with a higher than normal concentration of people on public assistance.  You may have to walk a few blocks to catch a bus, but there is one that will get you to within walking distance of an ethnic store.

How much of the shelf space in the corner store is devoted to chips, soda and other processed foods?  You could provide a heck of a decent amount of variety with just twelve linear feet of shelf space (4 shelves at three feet each).  Stock with rice, beans, barley, wheat flour, rice flour, oats, lentiles, dried peas etc.  Take the beer out of the cooler and put in cabbage, cauliflower, carrots, celery, onions, etc.  I've just described a corner indian store I shop at (in a mostly ethnic eastern indian area). 

I know not everyone can do it as some may have more barriers than most (and there should be a way to fix that).  However I do think in a majority of the cases it is entirely possible to eat reasonably heatlhy on FS.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Dole is one of the big monopolies on fruits/vegetables

Carghill is a big player in wheat/corn/soybean production

Tyson and Farmland are huge meat lobbyists.

Even if you think you are buying an independent brand take a closer look sometime. DH showed me how to read packages of bacon, they have to put on the package where that product came from.

Out of all the brands on the shelf when you look closely they almost all come from one of four companies: Hormel, Farmland, Oscar Meyer or Tyson.

Those same companies own the farms that the meat comes from.

It's been really disturbing to think about how much control just a few companies have over our food supply.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Stock with rice, beans, barley, wheat flour, rice flour, oats, lentiles, dried peas etc. Take the beer out of the cooler and put in cabbage, cauliflower, carrots, celery, onions, etc

Those aren't really money makers for major supermarkets/convience stores. Prize space (middle shelves) in supermarkets go to those who have the deepest pockets and most influence. That's why you see the same name brands in those spots pretty much everywhere you go.

FritoLay has a shitload more money than some organic farmer peddling celery. Unless FritoLay starts marketing its own brand of dried lentils their shelf space won't be given over to approved foods.

[zibazinski]

Grocery stores won't open in these areas because of the theft by the very people they opened to help. So until you get some kind of non-animal behavior, sorry to insult animals, you're going to get stores that rip you off because they are getting ripped off.

[973beachbum]

Mar 12, 2013 15:47:23 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

Stock with rice, beans, barley, wheat flour, rice flour, oats, lentiles, dried peas etc. Take the beer out of the cooler and put in cabbage, cauliflower, carrots, celery, onions, etc

Those aren't really money makers for major supermarkets/convience stores. Prize space (middle shelves) in supermarkets go to those who have the deepest pockets and most influence. That's why you see the same name brands in those spots pretty much everywhere you go.

FritoLay has a shitload more money than some organic farmer peddling celery. Unless FritoLay starts marketing its own brand of dried lentils their shelf space won't be given over to approved foods.

I was thinking of Atlantic City when I mentioned living in a city with no grocery stores.  I don't go there much but it is the nearest "big city" type place to me.  They have talked about how there are literally no grocery stores on the island.  Something like half the full time residents and 90% who get aid like FS don't have cars.  While there is a type of public transportation it isn't like NYC  or Chicago!  The closest GS would be about 2 hours one way on the NJ transit bus.  I have seen people waiting outside the one Pathmark.  That is a long ride to make to get rice and beans.  Other than that AC has something called Jitney's.  They only run on the island but are a great sourse of convenient cheap transportation.

The local mini marts are all that are on the island.  They don't sell booze but I know they wouldn't want to switch out things like soda and chips which make good money for things like rice and beans which don't unless they charged 5 times what a grocery store would.  They do sell things like bread, milk and lunch meat to locals.  But their bread and butter  customer is a tourist who wants coffee and a sub not a FS using local.

[jupe36]

What the captain was saying is very interesting-thinking back to my convenience store days-we did have a whole section of staples, fruits and vegetables. My manager also told us to let people get TP and also baby aspirin (drugs were not the problem they are today) and of course this was before electronic cash registers that would keep track of the actual items purchased. We were very strict about the other items that were not eligible. But once again none of the people ever questioned when we said they couldn't buy a particular product with their food stamps-doubt it would be that simple today...

[jupe36]

I was behind a woman at the store the other day-I guess it was WIC checks she was using. She had multiple items that the cashier rang up and then on the last item the cashier told her it was the wrong brand. Her son ran back to get the correct one, but came back saying they were out. So now the lady had to return everything, because they can't buy just some of the things on the list, everything had to come from the same store. She also mentioned this was the only store within walking distance and she would have to wait till the next afternoon to get someone to take her to a different store that might have everything on the list in the correct size. I don't understand the purpose of that; if it's to complicated to set up electronically, let the cashier cross off the items purchased and the person could use the rest of the check/card at a different store at a different time. It also seems wasteful to have to get everything at the same time-perhaps she didn't need those fresh vegetables today, but could use them at the end of the week.

[jupe36]

I was told that the idea behind limiting what you could purchase with food stamps had a duel purpose. It was partly to make sure people got the best nutritional value for their dollar, but also to encourage people to try to find work so that they could purchase the extra treats like soda and candy.

[constanz22]

Mar 12, 2013 16:25:58 GMT -5 jupe36 said:

I was told that the idea behind limiting what you could purchase with food stamps had a duel purpose. It was partly to make sure people got the best nutritional value for their dollar, but also to encourage people to try to find work so that they could purchase the extra treats like soda and candy.

But, that's the problem.  There IS NO limit on what foods can be bought with food stamps.  There does not have to be ANY nutritional value in what they buy.  Food Stamps and WIC are completely different programs.

[Peace77]

If they expect people to find work, they should allow soap, shampoo, toothbrush and toothpaste.  I would not mind if toilet paper was allowed too.

[resolution]

I don't think the food desert would be a problem if they limited food stamps to regular foods and cut out the junk. If you go into any convenience store and look carefully, they will have a few types of dairy, meat, bread and some sad looking fruits tucked away in odd locations. Its because the FNS won't license them to receive food stamps if they don't carry the stuff.  If the requirements to carry healthy food were raised, they would have to comply to keep the money rolling in.

www.fns.usda.gov/snap/retailers/store-eligibility.htm

To be eligible as a store in the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP), your store(s) must sell food for home preparation and consumption and meet one of the criteria below:

(A)	Offer for sale, on a continuous basis, at least three varieties of qualifying foods in each of the following four staple food groups, with perishable foods in at least two of the categories:
		meat, poultry or fish
		bread or cereal
		vegetables or fruits
		dairy products

[Deleted]

One thing I miss about Michigan is the CSA Organic farm I got my stuff from.  It was a small family owned farm.  I bought all my veggies and eggs there.  I also got ground beef (man did it taste better than the stuff from the store), chicken, and at Thanksgiving, a small turkey. 

Here in Italy I try to shop as much as I can from local markets and butchers.  I do sometimes take the bus to do shoppoing at different markets because I like to people watch.  I see many people on the bus with small bags of groceries.  I am not saying that everyone in the states can do it that easily, but I do see a lot of people do it here and I have done it here.  I also will ride my bike to a market.  I have access to a car, but I don't always use it.

I honestly have never seen a "food desert" so I don't know how hard it is to do it in an area like that.  In the Detroit area I did see areas that stores that I was used to were not anywhere to be found, but there were several ethnic grocery stores.  I don't know if they takeFS or not, but that is where I would have shopped if I lived there instead of the local 7-11.

[zibazinski]

Amen.. Those stores have neat food and great deals. I drink green tea.  If I get it at Costco, good deal for large amount, that's fine. If I get it at oriental/ethnic store, more for the money, better tasting, and advice along with it. Who knew so many kinds of green tea?

[Deleted]

Mar 12, 2013 16:16:27 GMT -5 jupe36 said:

I was behind a woman at the store the other day-I guess it was WIC checks she was using. She had multiple items that the cashier rang up and then on the last item the cashier told her it was the wrong brand. Her son ran back to get the correct one, but came back saying they were out. So now the lady had to return everything, because they can't buy just some of the things on the list, everything had to come from the same store. She also mentioned this was the only store within walking distance and she would have to wait till the next afternoon to get someone to take her to a different store that might have everything on the list in the correct size. I don't understand the purpose of that; if it's to complicated to set up electronically, let the cashier cross off the items purchased and the person could use the rest of the check/card at a different store at a different time. It also seems wasteful to have to get everything at the same time-perhaps she didn't need those fresh vegetables today, but could use them at the end of the week.

I was on WIC for a year.  It isn't that complicated once you get used to it and there's only a few things on a voucher, not a long list.  She could have got all the items on her list that she had and just not got whatever they were out of that week and gone without.  They don't MAKE you get everything on the voucher.  You just can't use a voucher more than once. 

I used to skip the baby food meats all the time.  They were disgusting and I would never feed them to my kid, so why get them just because they were free?  I got the fruits and veggies though.

[The Captain]

Mar 12, 2013 15:43:20 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

Dole is one of the big monopolies on fruits/vegetables

Carghill is a big player in wheat/corn/soybean production

Tyson and Farmland are huge meat lobbyists.

Even if you think you are buying an independent brand take a closer look sometime. DH showed me how to read packages of bacon, they have to put on the package where that product came from.

Out of all the brands on the shelf when you look closely they almost all come from one of four companies: Hormel, Farmland, Oscar Meyer or Tyson.

Those same companies own the farms that the meat comes from.

It's been really disturbing to think about how much control just a few companies have over our food supply.

Drama - I thought I'd heard the above also and was going to mention it is a prior post.  However I usually try to fact check and make sure I can support what my recollection is before I state something.  I was able to find articles about the consolidation in the egg and dairy industry but could not find anything in the produce or meat industries.  I'm not challenging you (I've heard the same thing) but was wondering if you have any sources I could check?

[Deleted]

Mar 12, 2013 15:43:20 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

Dole is one of the big monopolies on fruits/vegetables

Carghill is a big player in wheat/corn/soybean production

Tyson and Farmland are huge meat lobbyists.

Even if you think you are buying an independent brand take a closer look sometime. DH showed me how to read packages of bacon, they have to put on the package where that product came from.

Out of all the brands on the shelf when you look closely they almost all come from one of four companies: Hormel, Farmland, Oscar Meyer or Tyson.

Those same companies own the farms that the meat comes from.

It's been really disturbing to think about how much control just a few companies have over our food supply.

We live by Hormel and they buy all their pork from independent farmers.  They don't own the hog operations.

We also live near Gold N Plump.  And that's a different story.  They do own the farms...at least the buildings.  They went through here and built huge chicken/turkey facilities for farmers with agreements that they provide all their birds for x number of years in exchange.

[milee]

Mar 13, 2013 7:50:56 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Amen.. Those stores have neat food and great deals. I drink green tea.  If I get it at Costco, good deal for large amount, that's fine. If I get it at oriental/ethnic store, more for the money, better tasting, and advice along with it. Who knew so many kinds of green tea?

There's a funny little hole-in-the-wall Asian food store near me that is fantastic!  Great selection, friendly owner and family and the prices are very low.  On the weekends, they even cook homemade specialties and sell them in $3 boxes; the line is out the door.

I call the owner my Asian grandmother.

In Phoenix, there were a few ethnic stores I liked that had good selection and prices, but weren't as friendly.  Even so, it's worth seeing if you can find one in your area.

[Sam_2.0]

I love the little mexican stores around here. My favorite is the tortillaria and butcher shop that sells tacos on the weekends. We go every Sunday after church and have to wait 20-30 minutes but it is well worth it. I've browsed through their store and they have decent prices on their items.

Now I want tacos for lunch.

[973beachbum]

Mar 13, 2013 8:24:00 GMT -5 deminmaine said:

Actually, Farmland is one of many brands owned by Smithfield Foods, Inc.

www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=smithfield%20meat%20company&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDIQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.smithfieldfoods.com%2F&ei=i31AUcrpCe7j4AO95YEY&usg=AFQjCNFCvnlgeEtHq9uif7bOxw4gYccfYA&bvm=bv.43287494,d.dmg

Which just helps make your point.  There are a few giant companies that control a huge chunk of the market.

Oscar Mayer is owned by Kraft Foods.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Take a look at how many brands are own by ConAgra. I've been doing research since I am interested in possibly working there. Holy smokes.

Campbell's also controls a huge chunk of the market. That's what I get for thinking they only made soup!

I'm not going to out which company DH works for. It looks like they don't own the farms, but they do own and produce the feed that the farmer's feed their animals.

Reading between the lines A LOT of farmer's all over the world count on this company's feed.

So they produce and sell the feed, contract the farm, process the meat, distribute the meat and sell the meat. That doesn't sound like a lot of independence to me.

[mrsdutt]

Mar 7, 2013 18:41:23 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

 if you've got $100.00 to buy food for the next week, are you going to spend it on 20 lbs of fresh vegetables (total calories = 800), or on a $50 bulk box of Kraft dinner and $50 tub of cookie dough (combined total calories = 25,000). There are 2 orders of magnitude in the number of calories these foods provide, and you need 2,200 calories a day just to function.

What veggies and fruits do you buy at $5/lb?  $100 in fresh veggies can get you potatoes, onions and bananas (at 0.69 when I bought them last week).  Carrots, broccoli, apples and celery was 0.89/lb.  Green beans $1.29/lb.  I've got a 3 lb (boneless....dammit) turkey breast that I am going to cook this evening that was $6 total.  

$100 for food for a week is not difficult to do.  You can feed 3-4 on that with a far better diet than cookie dough and Kraft dinners.

Sometimes I think people forget raw carrots, celery, potatoes and onions are fresh veggies. Like you said - apples, banans and orages can go a long way. Dried beans and peanut butter are good sources for protien.

How about a week's groceries include: (for 4)
bag of apples
bag of oranges
celery, cut and store in cold water for snacks
carrots, see above
potatoes
peanut butter
tuna
noodles
2 store brand wheat bread
2 whole chickens ( dinners and lunches
grape jam
2 gallons milk
dry milk
eggs
beef for stew, roast and left over lunches
pizza dough and makings (dinner and left over snacks, etc)
oatmeal
2 store brand cookies
It's assumed the basics for cooking do not need to be purchased. (flour, salt, etc)
These items cost 84.00 (rounded up) No sale prices.
BUT  I think some people live in hotel rooms and can't cook.