Is Sex-ed for Kindergartners Appropriate?!

[Phoenix84]

Mar 1, 2013 16:49:59 GMT -5 Chocolate Lover said:

Careful there Phoenix, you're starting to sound a bit homophobic.  


ETA:  FACT is, some guys do like guys and girls do like girls. They should hear that is something that happens at some point.

Homophobic?  Nah, trust me if I "hated" gays you'd know it.  Hating something takes work and effort, too much for me . 

I'm fine with a message at an age appropriate time that sometimes people are attracted to others of the same sex.  I just wouldn't like public schools to wade into the morass of morality and sex.  Just as you wouldn't want someone imposing on your kids that homosexuality is immoral, other parents wouldn't want someone teaching their kids it is moral.  So it's best to avoid the topic of morality alltogether. 

[Phoenix84]

Mar 1, 2013 16:49:59 GMT -5 Chocolate Lover said:

Deleted, double post. 

[muttleynfelix]

I'm fine with a message at an age appropriate time that sometimes people are attracted to others of the same sex. I just wouldn't like public schools to wade into the morass of morality and sex. Just as you wouldn't want someone imposing on your kids that homosexuality is immoral, other parents wouldn't want someone teaching their kids it is moral. So it's best to avoid the topic of morality alltogether

You can teach tolerance without preaching morality.

[Chocolate Lover]

I don't think the word OKAY implies that it's the best thing in the world, just not something you (kids you) should worry about if it doesn't apply to you and if it does that it isn't the end of the world. But we can leave the word OKAY out of the whole thing if it makes you feel better. 

[Phoenix84]

"You can teach tolerance without preaching morality."

Interesting point.  You are correct that there's a difference between tolorance and acceptance.  How do you "teach" tolorance though?  This discussion was brought up in the context of preventing bullying.  That somehow "understanding" it will make kids mature enough not to bully.

Kids will always bully and make fun of others different from them.  You can try to change kids, but making kids not pick on each other is like trying to fight the wind. 

But, that's a good way to put it.  I'm tolerant of gays, but that doesn't mean I have to accept the behavior as moral. 

[Angel!]

Mar 1, 2013 16:36:09 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

Well, I'd have a hard time accepting a prebucent kid was gay or transgendered.  At that age you don't have the life experience, or even the hormons, to know those kinds of things.  And just because a kind is a Tomboy or vice versa doesn't make them transgendered.  Hell, I read the babysitter club books and ocassionally played barbies with my sister, I turned out straight. 

Yeah, that is where I have difficulty. I want kids to be able to be who they are, but it seems like we are becoming so tolerant that perhaps we are pushing kids to accept something they aren't.

There is a big issue here because there is a boy at an elementary school who dresses like a girl & was using the girl's bathroom, but now they are telling him he can't. Apparently the boy has been dressing like that since 2 or 3, so the parents started treating him like a girl & doing his hair like a girls. I really question whether a 2 yr old who likes girls clothes is really transgendered. At that age they haven't even fully learned that dresses are for girls & pants for boys, etc. So, did the parents do the right thing being supportive at such a young age, or basically completely screw up their kid because he happened to be more interested in barbie than trucks & therefore must be transgendered?

[Chocolate Lover]

Thank you Muttley, I couldn't come up with the right phrasing to save my life, must be late on a Friday

[Chocolate Lover]

Mar 1, 2013 17:12:16 GMT -5 Angel! said:

Mar 1, 2013 16:36:09 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

Well, I'd have a hard time accepting a prebucent kid was gay or transgendered.  At that age you don't have the life experience, or even the hormons, to know those kinds of things.  And just because a kind is a Tomboy or vice versa doesn't make them transgendered.  Hell, I read the babysitter club books and ocassionally played barbies with my sister, I turned out straight. 

Yeah, that is where I have difficulty. I want kids to be able to be who they are, but it seems like we are becoming so tolerant that perhaps we are pushing kids to accept something they aren't.

There is a big issue here because there is a boy at an elementary school who dresses like a girl & was using the girl's bathroom, but now they are telling him he can't. Apparently the boy has been dressing like that since 2 or 3, so the parents started treating him like a girl & doing his hair like a girls. I really question whether a 2 yr old who likes girls clothes is really transgendered. At that age they haven't even fully learned that dresses are for girls & pants for boys, etc. So, did the parents do the right thing being supportive at such a young age, or basically completely screw up their kid because he happened to be more interested in barbie than trucks & therefore must be transgendered?

I probably would've stuck with neutral clothes and hair style until he was older to see if it was a phase or something that would last. I'd be worried, like you said, about pushing something he wasn't on him because I *thought* I saw a clue in his behavior.

[giramomma]

Mar 1, 2013 16:36:09 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

Mar 1, 2013 16:03:56 GMT -5 Angel! said:

Well, I'd have a hard time accepting a prebucent kid was gay or transgendered.  At that age you don't have the life experience, or even the hormons, to know those kinds of things.  And just because a kind is a Tomboy or vice versa doesn't make them transgendered.  Hell, I read the babysitter club books and ocassionally played barbies with my sister, I turned out straight. 

How well do you know gay folks? I've lived with several of them for a while. After a while, one begins to chat about these things.

One of my gay friends knew he was different at like age 7.

Knowing you are different from a young age is much different than playing with barbies.  Like most things that affect smaller segments of the population (addiction, mental illness, etc) I think that nature is pretty darn important.

[muttleynfelix]

How do you "teach" tolorance though? This discussion was brought up in the context of preventing bullying. That somehow "understanding" it will make kids mature enough not to bully.

Kids will always bully and make fun of others different from them. You can try to change kids, but making kids not pick on each other is like trying to fight the wind. 

I think it comes down to treating people how you want to be treated. As far as the context of teaching tolerance. Yeah, that is a little oversimplified. But there are also things that should be explained that it isn't acceptable to pick on other kids about.  In my very white school, we knew it wasn't kosher to pick on the few minorities for things like skin color or hispanic heritage (although we did pick on the jewish kid, but he usually started making fun of being jewish first ).  I think sexual orientation needs to fall into that category as well. THat from a young age kids know that is something that is off limits to pick on someone about. 

As far as Bullying, there is a difference between being picked on and bullying. Bullying takes it to the extreme.

[sheilaincali]

Phoenix- I used to live in Palm Springs and as a result have many gay friends (and a few gay family members).  Without a doubt all of them said that they knew they were different at a young age.  By refusing to acknowledge that some people are gay, transgendered, etc is to basically tell that kid who feels different that he is all alone in the world and shouldn't talk about what he or she is feeling.  That's not right. 

My son understood at a young age that all people were unique and different.  He would routinely stand up to bullies on the playground for calling kids the "F" word or saying "That's so gay".  Seriously- at like age 7 or 8 he would get in their faces and tell them not to call people that. 

I once invite a co-worker over for dinner.  I told him "Angela and her girlfriend Erica are coming over for dinner tonight"  He asked me "are they lesbians?"  I said "Yes".  His response was "Cool, I don't have any lesbian friends yet".  

As a parent I take great offense to your statement that "Kids will always bully and make fun of others who are different from them".  Maybe that's how you were raised but I can tell you without a doubt that my son has never bullied another kid and would never bully another child.  He would never mock a child for being different or treat them poorly.  We raised him better than that. 

[Phoenix84]

"Yeah, that is where I have difficulty. I want kids to be able to be who they are, but it seems like we are becoming so tolerant that perhaps we are pushing kids to accept something they aren't.

There is a big issue here because there is a boy at an elementary school who dresses like a girl & was using the girl's bathroom, but now they are telling him he can't. Apparently the boy has been dressing like that since 2 or 3, so the parents started treating him like a girl & doing his hair like a girls. I really question whether a 2 yr old who likes girls clothes is really transgendered. At that age they haven't even fully learned that dresses are for girls & pants for boys, etc. So, did the parents do the right thing being supportive at such a young age, or basically completely screw up their kid because he happened to be more interested in barbie than trucks & therefore must be transgendered?"

Precisely.  I'm worried you can be "too" tolerant because kids don't have the life experience know themselves that well.  So you can't really know if the kid is just going through a phase.  And if you start getting on your soapbox and teaching 4th graders about how being transgendered is "normal" then it might confuse some kids and then make them wonder if they really are transgendered or gay or not.  And how would they know when they aren't even in puberty yet?  Hence, why I don't think the topic should be covered until 9th grade or so.

If my parents had fallen over themselves trying to approve me reading babysitter books and playing barbies with my sister, I would likely do more and more of it.  Not because I was particularly interested in those things, but because I was trying to earn parental approval.  So then I might feel confused and aprehensive if I wanted to stop that behavior. 

[weltschmerz]

Well, I'd have a hard time accepting a prebucent kid was gay or transgendered.  At that age you don't have the life experience, or even the hormons, to know those kinds of things.
---------------------
My son's best friend's dad was transgendered. Mark and my kid would hand him his makeup while he taught them about jet engines. We also always had same-sex couples at our Thanksgiving table. When he was really young, it didn't matter about life experience or hormones...it was just a fact of life; that some people are different. It didn't even need any explanation. It just WAS. When he was old enough to be curious and ask questions, I answered in all honesty. It was never a big deal.
(And he never caught "the gay")

[Phoenix84]

Mar 1, 2013 17:17:57 GMT -5 @missmargarita said:

I don't get the "morality" issue you're having phoenix.  I don't think addressing homosexuality in sex-ed is "advocating" it, anymore than they are advocating premarital sex or promiscuous behavior in heterosexuals by discussing it. (which some people find immoral as well)... so should sex ed be removed altogether from school becasue some people are uncomfortable with some of the ways people can have sex? 

People are going to have sex whether they learn about it in school or not... if more kids can be informed as to the potential risks, etc. and make more informed choices, then that is a good thing as far as I'm concerned.. whether it's boy/girl, boy/boy or girl/girl...

No, I never advocated for dropping sex ed.

But some previous poster mentioned how they teach teach that behavior is not "crazy" or "disgusting."  That's what I have an issue with.  I'm fine if same sex relationships are included in age approrpiate time covering topics of safe sex and biology. 

So yes, I agree with you the purpose of sex ed to teach about human biology, the dangers of sex, and how to protect yourself.  Morality shouldn't enter into the equation. 

[sbcalimom]

When we had to take DD1 (3.5) to the ER back in December they ended up doing a full exam and the doctor needed to check for any external signs of a urinary tract infections.  When DD hesitated a bit, he mentioned that it was ok because he was a doctor and Mama was in the room but if anyone every tried to touch her in her bathing suit area she needed to tell another grown up right away.  The way he said it was very age appropriate and not scary.  That was the first mention of it by a doctor though DH and I have talked to her a bit about it.

I think as long as it was tailored to the age I wouldn't be adverse to it in kind.

[weltschmerz]

 And if you start getting on your soapbox and teaching 4th graders about how being transgendered is "normal" then it might confuse some kids and then make them wonder if they really are transgendered or gay or not.  And how would they know when they aren't even in puberty yet? 
--------------------
Before you hit puberty, did you self-identify as a boy? That's all it means. It has nothing to do with sex or puberty, but self-identification.

[Angel!]

Mar 1, 2013 17:30:52 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

But some previous poster mentioned how they teach teach that behavior is not "crazy" or "disgusting."  That's what I have an issue with.  I'm fine if same sex relationships are included in age approrpiate time covering topics of safe sex and biology. 

I get where you are coming from, but totally disagree. I think it can be done in a way that says "everyone is different, but you shouldn't bully those that are different from you".

Since most kids seem to know from a fairly young age who they are attracted to, I don't think telling kids that some boys like boys at around 10 is a big deal. That is a fact & might help kids understand their feelings & be more understanding of others.

I don't think acknowledging the facts will turn a bunch of kids gay because otherwise they would have never realized they had options.

[Sum Dum Gai]

I wouldn't call it sex ed, but kindergarten might be the right age for the don't share drinks or become blood brothers talk.  I served with a guy that got oral herpes in the second grade from sharing a drink with a kid at school.  Poor bastard got an STD before he even hit puberty.  It's never too early to tell kids to keep their bodily fluids to themselves.

Now, at that age it shouldn't be sexual at all though.

[Tennesseer]

Mar 1, 2013 17:30:52 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

Mar 1, 2013 17:17:57 GMT -5 @missmargarita said:

I don't get the "morality" issue you're having phoenix.  I don't think addressing homosexuality in sex-ed is "advocating" it, anymore than they are advocating premarital sex or promiscuous behavior in heterosexuals by discussing it. (which some people find immoral as well)... so should sex ed be removed altogether from school becasue some people are uncomfortable with some of the ways people can have sex? 

People are going to have sex whether they learn about it in school or not... if more kids can be informed as to the potential risks, etc. and make more informed choices, then that is a good thing as far as I'm concerned.. whether it's boy/girl, boy/boy or girl/girl...

No, I never advocated for dropping sex ed.

But some previous poster mentioned how they teach teach that behavior is not "crazy" or "disgusting."  That's what I have an issue with.  I'm fine if same sex relationships are included in age approrpiate time covering topics of safe sex and biology. 

So yes, I agree with you the purpose of sex ed to teach about human biology, the dangers of sex, and how to protect yourself.  Morality shouldn't enter into the equation. 

You are right. Morality should not enter the equation. Simply explain what hetero and homosexuality is and explain same-sex marriage is legal in 20% of U.S. states and that is why Billy or Tifany may have two moms or dads.

[Angel!]

Mar 1, 2013 17:14:43 GMT -5 Chocolate Lover said:

Mar 1, 2013 17:12:16 GMT -5 Angel! said:

Yeah, that is where I have difficulty. I want kids to be able to be who they are, but it seems like we are becoming so tolerant that perhaps we are pushing kids to accept something they aren't.

There is a big issue here because there is a boy at an elementary school who dresses like a girl & was using the girl's bathroom, but now they are telling him he can't. Apparently the boy has been dressing like that since 2 or 3, so the parents started treating him like a girl & doing his hair like a girls. I really question whether a 2 yr old who likes girls clothes is really transgendered. At that age they haven't even fully learned that dresses are for girls & pants for boys, etc. So, did the parents do the right thing being supportive at such a young age, or basically completely screw up their kid because he happened to be more interested in barbie than trucks & therefore must be transgendered?

I probably would've stuck with neutral clothes and hair style until he was older to see if it was a phase or something that would last. I'd be worried, like you said, about pushing something he wasn't on him because I *thought* I saw a clue in his behavior.

This makes sense.  The parents really took him the other way.  They showed "her" on the news in a bunch of outfits girlier than 98% of DD's wardrobe.  Her passport lists her as a girl & they are effectively raising her as a girl.  That could seriously screw up a kid who went through a phase where he wanted to dress like his mom.  I mean there was a point in time where everytime I picked up DS from school he was dressed as a princess, I didn't take that as a sign he should be raised as a girl.  If he was still doing it now, I could see that starting to mean something.

It sucks because they are hitting there first roadblock now because she technically has boy parts & it sort of makes sense she shouldn't use the girls restroom, but at the same time you don't want to send someone who looks like a girl into the boys.  I feel so sorry for this kid.  Whether or not she is truly transgendered, her parents have set her up for a really rough life from the beginning.  Seems like these battles could have waited until the kid was old enough to really understand everything.

[Phoenix84]

"You are right. Morality should not enter the equation. Simply explain what hetero and homosexuality is and explain same-sex marriage is legal in 20% of U.S. states and that is why Billy or Tifany may have two moms or dads."

Works for me. 

[Tennesseer]

I am also guessing Section 3 of DOMA, along with California's Proposition 8, are going to be ruled unconstitutional and overturned by SCOTUS later this spring. That should increase the number of states where same-sex marriage (SSM) is now legal and  believe) will also give federal recognition to SSM no matter what state they currently reside (assuming they married in states where SSM is legal).

[raeoflyte]

Dh's parents did everything to make him be a girl, but amazingly it didn't work. You can't make someone transgendered.

We try for a very gender neutral household, but ds calls himself a little boy even though we typically say kiddo or something non gender specific.

[swamp]

I have a friend whose daughter may be transgendered. She identifies as a boy and has since she was about 2. She's now 6. 

They dress her in neutral clothing, kind of tomboyish, bit not over the top boyish and she has a nondescript bob haircut. They tell her she is a girl, bit buy her the toys she wants and put her in all the sports she wants. 

She has an older siste who is a girlie girl. 

The parents recognize what's up, but doesn't want to make life more difficult than it has to be. 

[973beachbum]

Mar 1, 2013 15:40:16 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

"high school is WAAAAAAY too late.  Kids experiment early."

But do most kids know they're gay by age 10 or 11?  Most of the gay guys I knew in college didn't know until they were teenagers. 

And by "high school" I was thinking freshmen, 14 year olds. 

Just so you know this when your kids get here puberty doesn't start in HS.

Beginning as early as age eight in girls—and two years later, on average, in boys—the hypothalamus signals hormonal change that stimulates the pituitary. In turn, the pituitary releases its own hormones called gonadotrophins that stimulate the gonads and adrenals. From these glands come a flood of sex hormones—androgen and testosterone in the male, estrogen and progestin in the female—that regulate the growth and function of the sex organs. It is interesting to note that the gonadotrophins are the same for males and females, but the sex hormones they induce are different.

The experience of puberty is new and unusual for both boys and girls. It is not something that happens overnight, but rather it is a process that occurs in stages and at different ages for different people. It is perfectly normal, for example, for one person to have already started developing while one's best friend of the same age has not. The age at which puberty begins can vary widely between individuals. Timing of onset is affected by genetic factors, body mass, nutritional state, and general health.

Read more: www.healthofchildren.com/P/Puberty.html#ixzz2MOfWDoEA