English requirement in immigration reform...

[The Captain]

English requirement in immigration reform will test underfunded ESL system
news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/english-requirement-immigration-reform-test-underfunded-esl-system-171501009--election.html
I remember growing up my Grandfather telling me about how his grandparents (who came over from Germany) learned English.  They used to go to Church and get together afterward with other German speaking immigrants and practice their english on each other with a few immigrants who knew decent english leading the group.  My Great Great Grandmother (my mom remembered her) did not allow english to be used in the house ("We are in America, you speak American!!!) and would yell at my great great Grandad when he would slip back into German.  My grandfather never learned German (he was raised by his grandparents) since only english was used in the house.
On my mom's side my great aunt told me of her slavic parents who came to the US and did not speak English.  There were no ESL classes for Macedonian speakers and they managed to figure it out somehow.
Did enlgish change in the past 100 or so years and become harder to learn?  I know it is a difficult language to become fluent in, but really - why does it seem so much harder these days?  

 

[weltschmerz]

 I know it is a difficult language to become fluent in, but really - why does it seem so much harder these days? 
----------------
English is an exceptionally difficult language to become fluent in. The only people who disagree are native-born English speakers. Unless you're exposed to it at a very young age, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. It's all memorizarion. Even languages with two or three genders are easier because they follow a pattern. English has no such patterns.
In any case, I agree. If you come to a country, you have to try to speak the language.

[formerroomate99]

Some people want to learn, some do not.  Some are willing to embrace the culture of the country they chose to live in, while others want to stick to their own kind.  It's as simple as that. 

[happyhoix]

I lived in a foreign country for about ten years where French was one of the dominant languages. I had a few French classes at school but most of what I picked up I learned from shopping, watching TV, etc.

I never got fluent, I was passible in 'pigeon' French and tourist French.  You don't pick up all the grammer and vocabulary you need to become fluent when you just try to sponge it up from the world around you, unless you're a small child. Children have a better ability to grasp new languages, but you lose that innate ability when you hit about middle school.  

Since my company got bought out by a French company I've started a DVD course in French, and my old knowledge is fitting into position like pieces in a jigsaw. The course explains the grammer and the quirks (don't get me started on the French words for seventy, eighty and ninety) and the whole thing makes way more sense now that I have someone explaining the rules and exceptions and providing the definitions for new vocabulary words. When you have this kind of tutoring you get fluent faster and you learn the language accurately.  

I agree all Americans should be fluent in English. I think the ESL programs are necessary to help people get there faster. Maybe we buy one less fighter jet and use the money to pay for ESL programs for all our newest citizens.

[billisonboard]

Feb 26, 2013 13:50:44 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

 I know it is a difficult language to become fluent in, but really - why does it seem so much harder these days? 
----------------
English is an exceptionally difficult language to become fluent in. The only people who disagree are native-born English speakers. Unless you're exposed to it at a very young age, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. ...

A good experience is to work with native-born English speakers who have learning disabilities. Attempting to explain English to them is a challenge.

[thyme4change]

I went to the Greek neighborhood in Chicago, and there were several families that I met that only spoke broken english, and kept speaking Greek in the home.  I was surprised as I had been assured that past immigrants from European countries came here and immediately assimilated and embraced everything about America and shunned all their past traditions.  And it is only the very recent, hispanic immigrants that refuse to conform. 

[Tennesseer]

Just a thought-100, 50, even 20 years ago, once immigrants, legal and illegal, left home, they had little to no contact with family and former friends back in the old home country. With technology today, new immigrants can keep in touch with the home country via computers and emails, Skype and landline/cell phones. These services are pretty low cost or even free. With such easy ways to keep in touch today, it may seem to these folks that, for the most part, they are still back home.

The children of these immigrants will become proficient in English as they assimilate into U.S. society.

I'm sure there are a number of other reasons why and I'm offering but one.

[thyme4change]

Little Italy in New York.  Chinatown in San Francisco.  So, we have little Mexico.  It is good to know where to get the best taco.

[Tennesseer]

Feb 26, 2013 15:17:37 GMT -5 deminmaine said:

Even when I was growing up if one went to a nearby mill town one would hear French spoken on the street.  The French that came here from Canada to work in the mills settled into neighborhoods often called "Little Canada"s, and kept their language and traditions going for generations.  This is not something new with Hispanic immigrants!

Make a visit to the Ironbound section of Newark, New Jersey. It's a large neighborhood of immigrant, first, second and third generation residents originating from Spain and Portugal. Spanish and Portuguese still spoken there by all. Some great restaurants there too.

[weltschmerz]

Feb 26, 2013 15:12:02 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

I went to the Greek neighborhood in Chicago, and there were several families that I met that only spoke broken english, and kept speaking Greek in the home.  I was surprised as I had been assured that past immigrants from European countries came here and immediately assimilated and embraced everything about America and shunned all their past traditions.  And it is only the very recent, hispanic immigrants that refuse to conform. 

The immigrants who come here do learn English (Or French), but they don't abandon their culture. I think it's great, from the ethnic festivals to the music and cuisine. Their kids grow up to be trilingual, which is never a bad thing.

[formerroomate99]

Feb 26, 2013 15:17:37 GMT -5 deminmaine said:

Even when I was growing up if one went to a nearby mill town one would hear French spoken on the street.  The French that came here from Canada to work in the mills settled into neighborhoods often called "Little Canada"s, and kept their language and traditions going for generations.  This is not something new with Hispanic immigrants!

Ok, but did these Canadian immigrants actually support their families or did they spend their entire lives getting some kind of government benefits because their flat out refusal to learn English doomed them to minimum wage jobs, and not having to learn English was more important to them than providing for their families? 

Back when my immigrant ancestors came here, nobody really cared if they learned English because there were good jobs that didn't require education or many language skills, and the English speaking taxpayers didn't have their wallets raided if these new immigrants couldn't hold down gainful employment.  This isn't the case anymore. 

[bean29]

Feb 26, 2013 16:23:15 GMT -5 formerroomate99 said:

Feb 26, 2013 15:17:37 GMT -5 deminmaine said:

Even when I was growing up if one went to a nearby mill town one would hear French spoken on the street.  The French that came here from Canada to work in the mills settled into neighborhoods often called "Little Canada"s, and kept their language and traditions going for generations.  This is not something new with Hispanic immigrants!

Ok, but did these Canadian immigrants actually support their families or did they spend their entire lives getting some kind of government benefits because their flat out refusal to learn English doomed them to minimum wage jobs, and not having to learn English was more important to them than providing for their families? 

Back when my immigrant ancestors came here, nobody really cared if they learned English because there were good jobs that didn't require education or many language skills, and the English speaking taxpayers didn't have their wallets raided if these new immigrants couldn't hold down gainful employment.  This isn't the case anymore. 

Back when we were discussing possibly raising the minimum wage here, I asked DH about it and he said that all his customers who were illegal were hard working construction and factory workers and they make way more than even theincreased proposed minimum wage. 

DH needs help in his office.  Must speak spanish must be able to use a pc/windows environment.  Marginal english skills workable.  I don't speak fluent spainish.  I have a very difficult time answereing the phone.  DD speaks pretty good spanish but even she says the customers talk too fast for her. 

Only in America do we want people to speak only one language.  You can learn two languages at once.  It is recommended that one parent speak one language and the other the second language.  My BIL's grandmother spoke polish to them.  My neighbors are bilingual Polish/English.  Dh has a Mexican friend married to a Polish woman - both are fluent in English.  Our HS has craptastic foreign language teachers.  

I don't really know of immigrants on welfare.  I know a lot of them are working.  I know just as many white people who get Title 19 health insurance as minority people.  I am not one to think people should turn down benefits they are entitled too either. 

[deziloooooo]

Feb 26, 2013 15:31:48 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Feb 26, 2013 15:12:02 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

I went to the Greek neighborhood in Chicago, and there were several families that I met that only spoke broken english, and kept speaking Greek in the home.  I was surprised as I had been assured that past immigrants from European countries came here and immediately assimilated and embraced everything about America and shunned all their past traditions.  And it is only the very recent, hispanic immigrants that refuse to conform. 

The immigrants who come here do learn English (Or French), but they don't abandon their culture. I think it's great, from the ethnic festivals to the music and cuisine. Their kids grow up to be trilingual, which is never a bad thing.

Interesting this was brought up...I went out for lunch today and went Italian...while there reading the paper and eating I noticed two parties, one man and two woman..seted apart but speaking to each other ..Italian...no biggie to me..I wouldn't be surprised if they also spoke English..then again possible not..

If a person can get by and do fine by not being fluent in English , so be it...none of my concern..can still be a honest citizen , good parent..taxpayer ...don't  feel its a given , must learn the language..for their own benefit it would behoove them to learn the language to the best of their ability IMHO...

[Malarky]

Only in America do we want people to speak only one language.

Curious, and I'm too lazy to look it up...don't most countries have an "official" language?  Not that we do, even though I think we should.

[weltschmerz]

Ok, but did these Canadian immigrants actually support their families or did they spend their entire lives getting some kind of government benefits because their flat out refusal to learn English doomed them to minimum wage jobs, and not having to learn English was more important to them than providing for their families?

Back when my immigrant ancestors came here, nobody really cared if they learned English because there were good jobs that didn't require education or many language skills, and the English speaking taxpayers didn't have their wallets raided if these new immigrants couldn't hold down gainful employment. This isn't the case anymore. 
--------------------------
And whose fault is that? You should have closed those borders decades ago.

[Robert not Bobby]

Feb 26, 2013 13:39:50 GMT -5 The Captain said:

English requirement in immigration reform will test underfunded ESL system
news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/english-requirement-immigration-reform-test-underfunded-esl-system-171501009--election.html
I remember growing up my Grandfather telling me about how his grandparents (who came over from Germany) learned English.  They used to go to Church and get together afterward with other German speaking immigrants and practice their english on each other with a few immigrants who knew decent english leading the group.  My Great Great Grandmother (my mom remembered her) did not allow english to be used in the house ("We are in America, you speak American!!!) and would yell at my great great Grandad when he would slip back into German.  My grandfather never learned German (he was raised by his grandparents) since only english was used in the house.
On my mom's side my great aunt told me of her slavic parents who came to the US and did not speak English.  There were no ESL classes for Macedonian speakers and they managed to figure it out somehow.
Did enlgish change in the past 100 or so years and become harder to learn?  I know it is a difficult language to become fluent in, but really - why does it seem so much harder these days?  

 

On one side of the family it was Irish, so they lost the accent...easy...on the other side, Italian (early 1900s...they learned, no special treatment. Their daughter, my grandmother, became a librarian. That was fairly advanced for her time.)

No, English was never easy, but I think at one time people put in the effort. There was a greater sense of wanting to become 'American'.

I think now, the Mexicans think they are taking back what is rightfully theirs in a huge swath of the south west, and don't even bother to try to learn. Besides, when there is a critical mass of people speaking that language, you don't have to learn English. You can survive, day to day, in your immediate community, speaking your native tongue, as it were.

Look, don't get me wrong, the more languages you know, the more opportunities and the more cultural awareness you have. That is all positive. I wish I would have learned half decent Italian and French...but I can sense that it would not be that hard.

[thyme4change]

The Mexicans I know have a great sense of pride in becoming American.  

[The Captain]

I agree learning more than one language is a good thing (wish I knew some German, Gaelic, Italian, etc.) but the point I was trying to make was in the past the cultural circles took it upon themselves to teach each other english.  It was never considered the government's responsibility. 

Now it has somehow become the taxpayer's responsiblity to pony up for ESL (which has not been proven very effective) and the limited resources in this area are going to be used as another excuse for people who can't be motivated to learn the basics of English to get another pass on a citizenship requirement.  Note I am not speaking of any specific nationality but rather all who wish to become American citizens.

I believe we need to speak a common language to be able to speak with one voice as a nation.  Look at how fragmented we are becoming with requiring intreperters in our schools, hospitals, courts, and any governmental office.  If we cannot communciate with, and understand each other, how will we be able to stand together as a nation?

[sesfw]

' money to pay for ESL programs for all our newest citizens.'

Shouldn't they be required to attend ESL classes BEFORE becoming our newest citizens?  Citizenship classes in English, the language of their adopted country.  What a concept.

[billisonboard]

Feb 26, 2013 19:29:00 GMT -5 The Captain said:

... be able to speak with one voice as a nation. ...

I don't see this as a desirable goal.