Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Dec 17, 2012 14:08:45 GMT -5
::Maybe the murder rate is staying the same or declining but I don't remember these types of shootings when I was a child. We didin't have security at my school and worrying about some psycho busting in and shooting us was never considered. :: When you were a child, there wasn't the internet with a 24 hours news cycle. I'm not sure that means it didn't happen or just didn't get reported. By the same token, people looking to be famous for doing something like this probably didn't have the same expectation of fame due to the lack of coverage. I may depend on when (what type of media was available), where (big city, suburb, rural), and what types of 'media' your parents consumed (TV, Newspaper, Radio) and how much the parents shelter their kids from it... I have absolutely no memory of the Cuban Missle crisis - and yet a friend who lived 2 blocks away (she didn't become a friend til HS - we went to different gradeschools and churches in opposite directions of each other) has very vivid memories of her mom's response (fear) and the never ending TV coverage (they had many TVs and they were always on). Her mom was a cronic worrier/martyr type (in retrospect she may have had some borderline mental health issues). My friend remembers being a kid and being afraid - very very afraid that her house was gonna get bombed. There was only one TV in our house and newspapers. My parents would discuss stuff 'the kids shouldn't hear' in their second language... which we kids didn't know. When I was older I was aware of more 'current events' type things happening... but most stuff seemed to be 'in passing' and no one spent days dissecting what had happened. Heck, it's only been the last few years that my beloved 'train deaths' occassionally make actual news... I've been riding the train for 20 plus years and there are 4 to 6 'deaths' on my train line alone each and every year. In the early years of my commute - they were barely published/acknowledged unless it involved a car or could be 100% verified to have been an accident - and even then it only got published days after it occurred and might merely show up as part of the Obit for the person "died in tragic train accident". The suicides were rarely mentioned. ADDED: feel free to think about the state of my mental health - since I find these things interesting... and noteworthy. Now, I know about 'train deaths' on any train line in a matter of moments - the commuter train line puts out an electronic train delay due to 'a crossing accident' or 'pedestrian accident' or some other wording. it pops up on the local newspaper site, and if it's gruesome enough or involved a kid or car or multiple people it shows up on the news multiple times. Train deaths haven't increased (which is interesting in itself considering the population has gone up) they've stayed the same - the coverage of them has expanded and now people talk more about them (well, amongst the commuters and whoever watches alot of news). ADDED: I have to admit I find 'train deaths' alittle less interesting - because they are no longer the 'elephant in the room' - it's not the death part or the icky ness of getting hit by a train that I find interesting (I'm often saddened and hope the person/people involved have found peace and that their families/loved ones will also find succor and peace as well). It's the fact that these tragedies were something that shouldn't be acknowledged - something that causes people 'to look the other way' towards the person who died and maybe even their family. Like maybe it didn't happen or that the person 'just died' no need to know how or why.
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Dec 17, 2012 14:13:43 GMT -5
I usually sit down with my two while they have their after school snack before they start their homework. I ask them to tell me one thing they learned today, one thing that made them laugh, what happened in their "special" that day (music, art, gym), what they had for lunch....something they have to give me an answer to. I am hoping it helps keep the communication lines open for when they're older. Yep - this is exactly what I do and all I get is "I don't remember." I'll even start off with easy questions like what they had for lunch (I pack their lunch every day) to grease the wheels and still I get nothing. But then one day in the car one of them will tell me about how they got their feelings hurt at recess several weeks prior. I end up trying to gauge how their lives are at school by how happy they are leaving/arriving every day. I figure they are doing OK if they are excited to get on the bus and full of enthusiasm when they get home. But I sure wish I could get details.
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Dec 17, 2012 14:18:11 GMT -5
This is a great point. I remember back in Oct when everyone was laughing over the viral video of the kid sobbing over the stress of all the political ads. All I could think was why the hell were her parents exposing her to all those ads? There was absolutely no upside for her to see even one ad. People don't know how to disengage from media.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Dec 17, 2012 14:20:53 GMT -5
I asked my mom to explain Watergate to me. She said "I don't know - I was too busy with two toddlers to even watch the news. Sorry you will have to read a book."
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Dec 17, 2012 14:57:34 GMT -5
Actually, I think it's exactly the opposite. Not allowing kids to express their anger is causing bullying and more violence. If you expel a kid from school bc he got into a fight, next time he might not get into a fight, but start sending FB messages, bc he can't get expelled for that - and the bullying starts. Kids have gotten into fights from the beginning of time. They hash it out and move on. Yes, you address it, yes, you try to explain to them that there are other ways to handle it, but at least, by then they don't have that strong anger inside, bc they got it out of their system and IMHO are much better targets for listening. Not allowing them to fight sends only one message - YOU can't fight, but WE can do whatever we want with you anyway. Controlling your emotions takes time and certain development readiness. Simply forbidding it doesn't work
Lena
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Dec 17, 2012 15:05:24 GMT -5
so Lena- you are perfectly ok with your son being the punching bag for a classmate if that classmate is having a bad day? I am not ok with my kid getting beat up because some other kid was "angry" or "frustrated"
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Taxman10
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Post by Taxman10 on Dec 17, 2012 15:10:25 GMT -5
My husband keeps watching it and crying. That is why we had this conversation. I don't know why he is doing this to himself. Mine does too. We have kids the age of the kids that were killed. I have no idea what he's thinking.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Dec 17, 2012 15:13:13 GMT -5
Well, I know this is not popular now days, but I teach my boys to never hit anyone first, BUT never be a punching bag for anyone either. Someone puts their hands on you - you hit them back. I guess I just don't see anything wrong with two boys getting into a fight. This now very popular idea of "let's say no to violence" and "let's never put our hands on each other", etc etc hasn't worked very well, has it? We keep reading about all those suicides of kids who were bullied. People shoot each other.... I guess to me a fist fight pales in comparison.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Dec 17, 2012 15:27:06 GMT -5
I don't think bullying is about anger... I think it has more to do with achieving/keeping 'social status' and the emotional components that surround that. The kid/person being bullied undoubtedly feels anger at some point.
I always thought that 'sports' and various other 'competitions' was for kids to 'let off steam' without hurting each other as well as teaching them how to cope with 'conflict' and difficult emotional states - ie failing or winning. Kids need to learn ways to deal with their anger (and other turbulent emotions). "Where the Wild Things Are".... anyone know that book? I only read it as an adult - but my inner 4 year old recognized what it was about...
Besides "Might makes Right" isn't a very good way to resolve problems/conflicts - especially among peers.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Dec 17, 2012 15:30:56 GMT -5
Well, I know this is not popular now days, but I teach my boys to never hit anyone first, BUT never be a punching bag for anyone either. Someone puts their hands on you - you hit them back. I guess I just don't see anything wrong with two boys getting into a fight. It's all fun and games until one of the boys bashes the other one in a head with a big rock or brick causing the kid to irrepairable brain damage OR pulls a knife and guts the other kid (who then bleeds to death). Ah, the good old days.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Dec 17, 2012 15:33:27 GMT -5
My problem is that there are a lot of instances where violence escalates over time. Talk to an abused spouse- it doesn't start with them in the ER it starts smaller and escalates over time. When they talk about serial killers they always mention them killing small animals first. There are many cases over years where things escalate and I think teaching a kid that violence is the best way to vent his anger and frustration at a young age is not something they are always going to outgrow.
Will some kids get in one fist fight in the third grade and then never again? Sure absolutely possible. But will some kid start beating up on kids in the third grade and hitting people when he's frustrated grow up to hit his wife? his co-workers, etc? Sure absolutely possible.
You and I have disagreed nearly entirely on all matters of parenting styles and other topics and I think that this is another case in which we will probably never see eye to eye. I do tell my kid to say no to violence and to not put his hands on other people. Sorry that's just me. I also teach him to treat people with respect and to have to confidence to stand up for himself with his words and actions (those actions not being to hit other people)
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Dec 17, 2012 15:42:49 GMT -5
FWIW - I don't Lena is advocating combat between kids... Kids do need to know how to respond (and judge what to do) when threatened. I don't think a kid should just 'take' whatever abuse gets dished out to him becuase 'he's not suppose to 'hit back'' - in theory, the kid should have some 'game plan' where his first action is not "Total and Complete Nuclear Distruction" of the kid who's getting aggressive.
Learning how to manipulate people is part of growing up -- as is not crossing over to the 'dark side' when you get good at it.
Besides, some people are like dogs - if you don't manipulate (and I don't mean hit or beat) them into 'submission' they will get more and more agressive. The Bitch Manager from Hell was like this... if she felt you were being 'weak' she was on you like a fly on shit... and the more you backed down the more aggressive she became. But if you took a stand and stood up to her she'd snarl and bark but would back down as long as you staid 'in charge'.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Dec 17, 2012 15:45:53 GMT -5
I am not sure where you are getting the idea that I think violence is the best way to do anything. I am simply saying that expecting boys not to fight is unrealistic and punishing them with kicking them out of school serves no purpose.
You might tell your kid to say "no" and he listens, but there are 100 other kids who either don't listen or really haven't learn to control themselves yet. And it really doesn't mean that they are all going to grow up mass murderers or wife abusers.
Also, I would think that when you are 10-12-14 there are times when standing up with words might not work. I don't have 10-12-14 yr old boys yet, so I could be wrong, I've been wrong before.
Anyway, I really don't know what your parenting style is, I don't keep track of poster's parenting styles, but if you say we disagree, OK, let's just leave it at that.
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Dec 17, 2012 15:59:04 GMT -5
I don't watch and generally avoid as much news as possible. But between here and my home page where I get to pick and choose what I want to read it's still right there. My home page had pictures of some of the victims and they were just so adorable and innocent looking I lost it. I don't want to know what they all look like or how wonderful and sweet they were. It's too gut wrenching. I'd rather keep it as impersonal as possible so I can deal with the atrocities of society that are still happening no matter how civil we are getting.
I think Lena brought up a very good point actually. Boys need to get their aggressions out some how and not all are sports/athletically inclined. That's how boys (many) are and it's not their fault. It's in their DNA. I had 4 brothers who beat the shit out of each other constantly. I did not understand their need to do it but it was sure better than them killing all of us when they had all of that pent up aggression and frustration going on which one of them very well may have done. He had a lot of anger issues.
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michelyn8
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Post by michelyn8 on Dec 17, 2012 16:09:52 GMT -5
After things like the school shooting, there is always someone who says that media is too focused on this stuff, and they cause copy-cats, or plant the idea in people's heads. However, the news outlets keep covering it, because we keep watching the coverage and reading the articles. This morning my husband and I asked each other why we were watching it. We don't know anyone. We know we aren't going to get "answers" as to why this guy did this. What are we getting out of it? I had a theory that when I first heard about it, I felt bad - but I wondered if I felt "bad enough." I didn't have any outrage. I didn't immediately demand tighter security and bullet proof glass at my kids' school. I didn't cry. But, I did cry when I saw the video of the Dad talking about his daughter who had been killed. We aren't that much older than kindergarten, and I still remember so vividly how sweet that age is. So, I will read those stories periodically to make sure that I am as grief stricken as the people around me, just to make sure I don't appear like a cold, horrid monster. Why do you watch the continuing coverage of these types of things? What do you get out of it? Does it make you feel a certain way? Does it make you feel connected to people? Do you do it to find answers that will never come? Do you hope that having shared outrage will lessen your outrage? Do you just want to make sure you are informed, so you can correct people around the water cooler when the inevitably say something stupid? Because of this tragedy, I've made a conscious decision to limit just how much news I do watch the next few weeks. I'm also avoiding FB. I feel for the parents but I honestly don't want to watch the inevitable media frenzy and their interviews with people seeking their 15 minutes.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Dec 17, 2012 16:56:07 GMT -5
I don't know. My kid and all of his friends (from what he has told me) have been able to make it through school so far without getting in any fist fights on the playground. Every school he has attended has had a zero tolerance policy when it comes to bullying, violence, etc. So far they haven't had any major problems. They have suspended a few kids over the years- one kid shoved another into a port a potty and held the door closed while on a fire drill and another kid snapped a girl's bra. Both what I would consider "minor" instances but the school was pretty swift with punishment and made an announcement reminding kids the punishment for certain behaviors.
Lena- you and I have had differing views on the SAH debates, putting kids in daycare, that whole little boy wearing a pink shirt thread from a while ago,etc. I have always enjoyed reading your posts because frequently it seems like your opinion is vastly different than mine. Which is a good thing. I think it helps breed a good spirited debate on these boards.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Dec 17, 2012 17:15:03 GMT -5
I don't watch. I'll admit I didn't even read anything beyond the first post of this thread. I can't watch any of it because it will hit me too hard. I don't think I want to know anything about it.
It is weird though. I think something changed in me when I had kids or just in getting older. I can't deal with stuff that involves kids getting hurt anymore. This kind of stuff didn't use to get to me like this.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Dec 17, 2012 17:48:57 GMT -5
Oh OK, I remember pink shirt debate LOL. I really don't remember the discussions about the other two. As a matter of fact, I try (evidently not hard enough ) to stay away from those topics. I like reading your views too
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cronewitch
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Post by cronewitch on Dec 18, 2012 1:57:44 GMT -5
I don't watch much news. I did want to see why he did it but they don't know.
Angry young people need to be taught control or to stiffle themselves. My great nephew was born hot tempered. But it wasn't allowed to be openly expressed. He was in daycare and had a tantrum but stopped in the middle and went to the time out bench. He was only 1 but knew after tantrum is time out, not reward. He spend his toddler years often mad at his mother, he called her stupid mommy when she did things he didn't like. He got spanked for saying stupid daddy in front of grandpa but mom usually washed his mouth out with soap. One day she couldn't find the bar soap so used liquid so he called her stupid mommy while she was washing his mouth out. In preschool he stuck his tongue out at another child and when he told his mom and she asked him what the teacher said he said she didn't know he sneeked.
They sent him to anger management, he wasn't allowed to say bad things or act out but needed to learn some self control. Now he is 16 and still has some trouble with anger and using poor choices of words to express himself and is often suspending from playing soccer for a game or two. His anger is quick and over quick and has never been physical. Suppressing himself doesn't mean he will be a monster.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Dec 18, 2012 12:55:30 GMT -5
Ironic, because the jocks always seem to be the most angry.
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