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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2012 13:31:40 GMT -5
Hoops, we're entering the territory where this agnostic generally feels the an overwhelming need to cross herself. I just hope you never have to know what one of hose parents feels like...
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kent
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Post by kent on Dec 14, 2012 13:31:53 GMT -5
Received this in an e-mail the other day. While it's about "accidental" deaths, and supposed to be more of a joke than something serious, I suspect the stats are still pretty close when you include the nutcases that run around purposefully killing others.
Doctors
(A) The number of physicians in the U.S. is 700,000.
(B) Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year are 120,000.
(C) Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171
Statistics courtesy of U.S. Dept of Health and Human Services.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Now think about this:
Guns
(A) The number of gun owners in the U.S. is 80,000,000. (Yes, that's 80 million)
(B) The number of accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups, is 1,500.
(C) The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is .0000188
Statistics courtesy of FBI
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
So,statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Dec 14, 2012 13:37:01 GMT -5
All the straw man arguments and apples-to-oranges comparisons are starting to overwhelm me. Those poor, poor children and their families.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2012 13:37:03 GMT -5
Apparently 27 are dead and there are children unaccounted for. It is an epidemic because every time one of these shootings happens it inspires some other disturbed individual to do the same.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using proboards
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2012 13:39:25 GMT -5
You may think that, but its not true, murdered is at least 30x the number of accidental and in several states gun deaths are now higher than car deaths I believe. www.vpc.org/studies/gunsvscars.pdf
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Dec 14, 2012 13:39:31 GMT -5
I'm not sure tightening gun laws will fix this issue. We may have to rexamine the treatment of the mentally ill, however.
But I'll refrain from full comment until the full facts are out there.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2012 13:42:51 GMT -5
Mentally I'll treatment is an issue, but those states with lowest gun casualties have fewer hand guns and stricter laws. Those with higher casualties have more handguns and looser laws.
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Poptart
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Post by Poptart on Dec 14, 2012 13:43:09 GMT -5
I think it's time we all have a conversation on gun control. When you have a men shooting up a mall, a movie theater and a school we can't continue to put our heads in the sand nor can we allow ourselves to hide behind the second amendment. I know that people will argue that "guns don't kill people, people kill people" but it makes it harder for Joe Crazy to kill 26+ people if he has no gun, of course if someone is hellbent on killing people he/she will find a way but damn why make it easier for them by allowing them access to a weapon that can take it a dozen people in minutes?
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Dec 14, 2012 13:47:13 GMT -5
we keep having conversations about it, but whenever we do, the NRA and gun nuts immediately shried that we want to gut the 2nd amendment.
I don't know what the answer is..............but my heart breaks for those kids.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2012 13:49:09 GMT -5
These tragedies hit me so much harder now that I'm a parent.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2012 13:49:24 GMT -5
in my opinion, it isnt the regular guns
it is the semi/auto weapons
if someone goes off the deep end, and wants to do damage....i dont think we can stop that
but that person being able to fire what 200 rounds a minute....that is crazy
i have zero issue with shotguns, rifles, and regular pistols....if you want to own one for self preservation, by all means
but why do we allow 20, 30, 50 guns for one owner? and why allow automatic weapons, or weapons that can be easily converted to automatic?
those are things i cannot fathom....
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Dec 14, 2012 13:50:05 GMT -5
Mentally I'll treatment is an issue, but those states with lowest gun casualties have fewer hand guns and stricter laws. Those with higher casualties have more handguns and looser laws. Actually, not quite the case.... www.statemaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-death-rate-per-100-000The states with some of the most stringent gun laws are NY, CA and IL. Only NY is at the bottom of this list. Actually, KY has much stricter gun laws than WA, yet KY is #17 on the list and WA is #35. Looking at this list, I would imagine that fatality has much more to do with hunting.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Dec 14, 2012 13:50:35 GMT -5
in my opinion, it isnt the regular guns it is the semi/auto weapons if someone goes off the deep end, and wants to do damage....i dont think we can stop that but that person being able to fire what 200 rounds a minute....that is crazy i have zero issue with shotguns, rifles, and regular pistols....if you want to own one for self preservation, by all means but why do we allow 20, 30, 50 guns for one owner? and why allow automatic weapons, or weapons that can be easily converted to automatic? those are things i cannot fathom.... I think we should be able to ask those questions and have an honest debate without being accused of being anti-gun, wanting to ignore the second amendment, or being a "wimpy liberal"
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Dec 14, 2012 13:51:54 GMT -5
but why do we allow 20, 30, 50 guns for one owner?
Those people who are collectors or who like shooting off a variety of weapons are NOT those who are causing problems.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2012 13:52:42 GMT -5
Hunting = accident. Murders are around 30x in number as accidents.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Dec 14, 2012 13:53:38 GMT -5
but why do we allow 20, 30, 50 guns for one owner?Those people who are collectors or who like shooting off a variety of weapons are NOT those who are causing problems. People suffering from mental illnesses like schizophrenia are the problem. I realize that most mentally ill people are not violent. The question is, how do we know who is going to pop off?
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Poptart
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Post by Poptart on Dec 14, 2012 13:53:52 GMT -5
I think Swamp is right, anytime anyone brings up gun control people start freaking the hell out, but my guess is that none of those people have had their five year old killed in a class room, or a movie theater or the mall by some crazy with a gun.
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kgb18
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Post by kgb18 on Dec 14, 2012 13:54:23 GMT -5
The conversations that are had are just lip service. Nothing has been honestly discussed. Our legislators, our community leaders are not having serious conversation about how to stop these kinds of things.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2012 13:55:33 GMT -5
Mentally I'll treatment is an issue, but those states with lowest gun casualties have fewer hand guns and stricter laws. Those with higher casualties have more handguns and looser laws. Actually, not quite the case.... www.statemaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-death-rate-per-100-000The states with some of the most stringent gun laws are NY, CA and IL. Only NY is at the bottom of this list. Actually, KY has much stricter gun laws than WA, yet KY is #17 on the list and WA is #35. Looking at this list, I would imagine that fatality has much more to do with hunting. www.vpc.org/press/1204death.htmI think we need to get to the nonspun data...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2012 13:55:58 GMT -5
in my opinion, it isnt the regular guns it is the semi/auto weapons if someone goes off the deep end, and wants to do damage....i dont think we can stop that but that person being able to fire what 200 rounds a minute....that is crazy i have zero issue with shotguns, rifles, and regular pistols....if you want to own one for self preservation, by all means but why do we allow 20, 30, 50 guns for one owner? and why allow automatic weapons, or weapons that can be easily converted to automatic? those are things i cannot fathom.... I think we should be able to ask those questions and have an honest debate without being accused of being anti-gun, wanting to ignore the second amendment, or being a "wimpy liberal" i have never been called liberal.....and i want "basic" gun rights upheld i just think the NRA and their lobbyists have gone way too far and the more of these stories i keep hearing, the more i think we need those gun laws changed....NOW
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Dec 14, 2012 14:01:15 GMT -5
I would think responsible gun owners would be all in favor of gun control. I know gun owners are not bad people, or even violent people, and most are very law-abiding. But these psychos who start indiscriminately opening fire in public areas make all gun owners look bad. Why WOULDN'T responsible gun owners want to restrict their access?
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on Dec 14, 2012 14:12:53 GMT -5
I would think responsible gun owners would be all in favor of gun control. I know gun owners are not bad people, or even violent people, and most are very law-abiding. But these psychos who start indiscriminately opening fire in public areas make all gun owners look bad. Why WOULDN'T responsible gun owners want to restrict their access? Law abiding people should jump through more hoops because of a small population? Guns are not the problem. Mentally ill people who think it is ok to shoot up a school, mall, movie theater, etc are. They will find some way to inflict damage if they are bent on it. Maryland has tough gun laws and yet Baltimore is one of the most violent cities in America with a lot of that being gun crime. The Baltimore city cops have no problem with the current court case to open concealed carry to more people. The problems they have with guns are from people who broke the law to get them, either because they cannot legally possess one or they bought it off the street. Criminals and the mentally ill don't give a damn about laws. Identifying these people before they snap and getting them treatment will help. Sane people don't think it is ok to blow up a daycare or shoot up a classroom full of five year olds.
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damnotagain
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Post by damnotagain on Dec 14, 2012 14:12:57 GMT -5
The conversations that are had are just lip service. Nothing has been honestly discussed. Our legislators, our community leaders are not having serious conversation about how to stop these kinds of things. I am all for life. There is no way to stop it though . Guns have built this country . I heard the other day 150,000 CC permits were recently applied for in Florida in one day. Look at the weapon stocks go Up , while life is becoming less valuable everyday.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Dec 14, 2012 14:13:24 GMT -5
You may think that, but its not true, murdered is at least 30x the number of accidental and in several states gun deaths are now higher than car deaths I believe. www.vpc.org/studies/gunsvscars.pdfIt's absolutely true, because people aren't arguing about "gun deaths", someone was arguing that 44 deaths in a few months is an "epidemic". There's arguing "gun deaths" and there's arguing "these types of mass killings".
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Dec 14, 2012 14:14:38 GMT -5
And it's a hell of a lot easier to inflict damage when you can fire off 200 rounds without having to stop and reload.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Dec 14, 2012 14:15:56 GMT -5
::but why do we allow 20, 30, 50 guns for one owner? ::
Why not? I mean it's not like you can use all 50 at once. If you want to own 2000 guns who cares? I think it's a lot more about the type of guns than the number. If I want to own a collection of 2,000 pistols is that somehow more dangerous than a guy who owns 1 assault rifle?
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on Dec 14, 2012 14:16:38 GMT -5
The conversations that are had are just lip service. Nothing has been honestly discussed. Our legislators, our community leaders are not having serious conversation about how to stop these kinds of things. I am all for life. There is no way to stop it though . Guns have built this country . I heard the other day 150,000 CC permits were recently applied for in Florida in one day. Look at the weapon stocks go Up , while life is becoming less valuable everyday. That number is probably heavily skewed because of Florida's setup. You can be a resident of another state, say one that is tough on concealed carry, and apply for a nonresident permit in Florida. Now a lot of states that allow concealed carry will not honor a non resident permit from Florida but some will.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Dec 14, 2012 14:19:05 GMT -5
Hoops, we're entering the territory where this agnostic generally feels the an overwhelming need to cross herself. I just hope you never have to know what one of hose parents feels like... Why? Because I said it was a tragedy whenever it happens, but that tragedy doesn't equate to "epidemic"? Frankly, I'm not going to freak out even if the government decides to ban all guns, i don't really care. But I do care about the sensationalizing of these events by the media to make them appear bigger than they really are in the grand scheme of things. Same with 9/11, Katrina, and Sandy. They make the news because they're a story, not because the loss of life was so large.
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on Dec 14, 2012 14:19:58 GMT -5
And it's a hell of a lot easier to inflict damage when you can fire off 200 rounds without having to stop and reload. If you know what you are doing and are strapped down with loaded magazines I promise that you can inflict a ton of damage. Swapping a magazine does not take me long. And if guns should be further controlled, what exactly should people do while the theoretical shooter is reloading? Tackle them or something? Pray the police have arrived?
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Dec 14, 2012 14:20:30 GMT -5
Problem is I might be perfectly sane when I purchase the gun, but not 5-10-15 years down the road. I believe it was the V-tech killer that they said passed all the requirements to obtain a weapon, but he still went and shot up the place. Everything was above board according to the law. So I don't see how making them stircter would help.
The really bonkers people already get screened out. It's the ones that are silent and can pass the screening that you have to worry about. You're not going to catch them.
Personally I think that what needs to be done is quit giving these f-ers their 15 minutes of fame. We interview their familes, their friends, their neighbors, their psychologists. WEEKS were spent on the V-tech killer.
You are sending these people the message that this is a way to get attention, this is a way to get your 15 minutes of fame. You're name will be remembered forever if you do this.
I agree 100% with a psychologist on GMA after V-tech. Say the kid's name, if he is dead or alive and that is IT. The person ceases to exist after that. Focus on the victims and their families.
Quit with the unlimited coverage of the killer. You're making it look glamorous to the other kooks out there. You're making it obvious to people who feel the same way that they too will finally get the attention they want from others.
If they know the only thing their going ot get out of it is "good riddance you bastard" they aren't going to see much appeal in it.
You're probably still going to have someone do it, you can't prevent all the crazy in the world, but it'd probably go a long way to stop the copy cats.
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