kdamron
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Post by kdamron on Nov 30, 2012 11:14:10 GMT -5
I am in the camp that says don't do it. No matter how good your intentions are, she is still their mother and they are still under her guardianship till they are minors. As DramaQ said, once the girls grow up they will be able to decide for themselves what they want to do. But for now, their mother's wishes need to be respected, no matter how ridiculous they are. If it were for me I would be terribly pissed if my XH's widow decided to to have a clandestine meeting with my daughter with the help of my daughter's friend's father! Firstly, that Dad has no business arranging such a meeting behind my back. Secondly, my daughter must follow my rules till she is under my roof. I understand she is being utterly ridiculous. I also understand you are doing it out of goodness of your heart. I truly do. But its still wrong becasue you are going behind the mother's back. Okay, I get that. And for the record, I don't care if Hoops posts or anyone else who disagrees with me. I come here to ask because I don't have all the answers and of course my friends will side with me just like EX's friends would side with her. I need feedback that isn't related. Thank you all.
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swasat
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Post by swasat on Nov 30, 2012 11:15:50 GMT -5
We get that kdamron. We are all here for you. Feel free to vent or ask for advice whenever you feel like it. Thats the beauty of the board...Anonymity
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Nov 30, 2012 11:17:15 GMT -5
::Okay, I get it, no meeting. I only emailed her when I was asked by DSD (who called me) to do it.::
When you do bring up the next meeting, make sure you approach it as "I really miss the girls and I'd like to see them if I could" as opposed to "Your kids really want to see me".
::And for the record, I sincerely doubt the girls want to see me more than their mom, they just probably need to see me too for the normalcy. I'm not going to kid myself. She is their mother. I get that. ::
The phrasing that you'd told us about how you broached the subject with the bio mom doesn't make that clear though. It's not enough for you to understand it, you might need to make it clear to HER that you understand it.
Do you still have anything of DH's that the kids would potentially want to have? Some reason to invite her and the kids over to pick out some things of his to remember him? Clearly the ashes thing has left a sour taste in her mouth, even if it should't have (or at least she wasn't too happy with it). This might present a way to get things back on the right track.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Nov 30, 2012 11:18:19 GMT -5
I would tell the dad friend that you appreciate his offer but to please stay out of it. You don't need any more drama lllamas coming out of the woodwork. It needs to be between you and bio mom. You don't want to chance that mom will decide to cut off their friends too because she doesn't trust the parents to do stuff behind her back.
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kdamron
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Post by kdamron on Nov 30, 2012 11:20:38 GMT -5
::Okay, I get it, no meeting. I only emailed her when I was asked by DSD (who called me) to do it.:: When you do bring up the next meeting, make sure you approach it as "I really miss the girls and I'd like to see them if I could" as opposed to "Your kids really want to see me". ::And for the record, I sincerely doubt the girls want to see me more than their mom, they just probably need to see me too for the normalcy. I'm not going to kid myself. She is their mother. I get that. :: The phrasing that you'd told us about how you broached the subject with the bio mom doesn't make that clear though. It's not enough for you to understand it, you might need to make it clear to HER that you understand it. Do you still have anything of DH's that the kids would potentially want to have? Some reason to invite her and the kids over to pick out some things of his to remember him? Clearly the ashes thing has left a sour taste in her mouth, even if it should't have (or at least she wasn't too happy with it). This might present a way to get things back on the right track. It's probably a good idea to let everything die down for a month and then approach her to see if she's willing to talk about the future. That was my plan but DSD is probably making me emotional. I have all of his things and expressed to both her and the girls last time they were over that whenever they are ready I would like the 3 of us to sit down (well 4 if his oldest is in town) and we all go through and pick out what we want. They both already picked out a couple of shirts, and one got his favorite visor and both his pillows so she could sleep on them. And yes, I'm in counseling.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Nov 30, 2012 11:28:13 GMT -5
::I have all of his things and expressed to both her and the girls last time they were over that whenever they are ready I would like the 3 of us to sit down (well 4 if his oldest is in town) and we all go through and pick out what we want.::
Does 4 include you, mom, and 2 kids? Or you and 3 kids (thrown off by "oldest" thing). One thing I might consider in hopes that it makes her more likely to agree is to invite her. Maybe pick out what you want, put it aside, then let them pick out anything else of his they might want. I mean nothing should be in the things that you're willing to have a kid say "I'd like this" that you're then going to turn around and say "I want it too". Make things easy. Let bio mom be the one to solve disagreements between the girls over who gets what. Take yourself out of it almost completely. Use the time to just be around them and make it clear you understand the new dynamic...she's the mom, they're her kids, you're essentially an adult who loves them. You might think of your new role as more a loving aunt than a parental figure (you won't be seeing them all the time, you won't be making decisions on their behalf, you are essentially seeing them when mom says it's ok).
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Nov 30, 2012 11:28:31 GMT -5
It's understandable and DSD probably doesn't really get all the politics that are going on in the background, she just wants to see you. The sucky thing is that you as an adult have to do what is best for everyone in the long term and it's not easy to explain that to a kid.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Nov 30, 2012 11:29:54 GMT -5
I agree that the ex is also grieving, and is prone to emotions as well. I'm sure in her mind, she has some reason that makes sense to her, on why her daughters seeing their step-mom is a problem. On the surface, I disagree with her decision - but I also agree with anyone who says that sneaking around with the 10 year old is going to cause problems.
If I were you, I would text the ex and say that you have been invited to meet with the girl at church on Sunday, and you are planning on going to see her for 5 minutes or so. That way, you have been upfront, and if she wants to stop you, she will need to contact her.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Nov 30, 2012 11:37:27 GMT -5
::If I were you, I would text the ex and say that you have been invited to meet with the girl at church on Sunday, and you are planning on going to see her for 5 minutes or so. That way, you have been upfront, and if she wants to stop you, she will need to contact her. ::
I coudln't disagree more both with the action and the phrasing.
The invitation was from the girl's friend's parent, who shouldn't be involved in the first place.
You're putting the girl in the middle of it, because if mom doesn't want her to see KD, she's just going to stop her from going over to her friend's house for the weekend.
And I'm not sure "I'm going to see your child" even when it's clear you don't have permission to do so, is going to make anything better. When you're doing something you shoudl be asking permission for, and instead saying "I'm doing this", I just don't see it being a good reaction. Again, put yourself in mom's shoes. If you'd made it clear you didn't want your child seeing someone, and they sent you a text saying "I'm going to see your child on this day", you "might" take it as a flagrant flaunting your rules. In some ways, she might see that as even worse than sneaking around to do it.
Essentially, I'm not sure it's enough to simply "be upfront" about undermining her authority as opposed to sneaking around to do it. You ask parents permission when it comes to their children, you don't put them on notice.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Nov 30, 2012 11:40:19 GMT -5
::And I completely disagree with those that say you are just a step-parent & have no future role in these girls lives.:: Did someone say this? You basically did. If that isn't how you intended it, it sure as hell is how it sounded. Kd - do you actually have no legal rights to see/visit the girls? Is that what came out of the lawyers meeting? Honestly this would make me never want to be a step-parent if this is true. You spend years forming a bond with a child only to have them ripped away. I just assumed there would be some sort of rights there, I mean grandparents have rights, why not step-parents?
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kdamron
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Post by kdamron on Nov 30, 2012 11:40:50 GMT -5
::I have all of his things and expressed to both her and the girls last time they were over that whenever they are ready I would like the 3 of us to sit down (well 4 if his oldest is in town) and we all go through and pick out what we want.:: Does 4 include you, mom, and 2 kids? Or you and 3 kids (thrown off by "oldest" thing). One thing I might consider in hopes that it makes her more likely to agree is to invite her. Maybe pick out what you want, put it aside, then let them pick out anything else of his they might want. I mean nothing should be in the things that you're willing to have a kid say "I'd like this" that you're then going to turn around and say "I want it too". Make things easy. Let bio mom be the one to solve disagreements between the girls over who gets what. Take yourself out of it almost completely. Use the time to just be around them and make it clear you understand the new dynamic...she's the mom, they're her kids, you're essentially an adult who loves them. You might think of your new role as more a loving aunt than a parental figure (you won't be seeing them all the time, you won't be making decisions on their behalf, you are essentially seeing them when mom says it's ok). I guess what I meant is that me and the girls will go through his things for what we want, of course I would expect her to be there with them, I just guess I wouldn't want her to participate in picking things out. Maybe I'm touchy on that subject. I have already pulled out the couple of things that I really want to have. I wanted one particular hoodie but so did DSD2 and it seemed churlish to tell a child no. The only thing I really want (and already have) is a bracelet that we bought in St. John, we had them matching and it's an island style thing that they do. We both always wore them but for some reason some of the wire on his came undone about two days before we left and he didn't have time to take it to the jeweler so he took it off and left it in the truck. None of the jewelry he was wearing was in his bag of effects. I'm not sure why and I was too in shock to even look through it at the hospital.
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kdamron
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Post by kdamron on Nov 30, 2012 11:43:03 GMT -5
It's so hard to deal with all of this on top of just the emotions and the grieving and trying to work and put a life back together.
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kdamron
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Post by kdamron on Nov 30, 2012 11:45:40 GMT -5
::And I completely disagree with those that say you are just a step-parent & have no future role in these girls lives.:: Did someone say this? You basically did. If that isn't how you intended it, it sure as hell is how it sounded. Kd - do you actually have no legal rights to see/visit the girls? Is that what came out of the lawyers meeting? Honestly this would make me never want to be a step-parent if this is true. You spend years forming a bond with a child only to have them ripped away. I just assumed there would be some sort of rights there, I mean grandparents have rights, why not step-parents? The lawyers are still communicating.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Nov 30, 2012 11:48:14 GMT -5
Maybe her lawyer has suggested that she eliminate visits with you, and it is upsetting to her also.
Maybe her lawyer has suggested that she does not communicate with you, as she may something that you could later hold against her.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Nov 30, 2012 11:52:11 GMT -5
::You basically did. If that isn't how you intended it, it sure as hell is how it sounded.::
I thinkt here's a difference between "you have no future role" and "you have no rights to a future role". I woudl absolutely mean the 2nd. Her future role is almost entirely dependent on bio mom agreeing to it for the next 8-12 years.
::I guess what I meant is that me and the girls will go through his things for what we want, of course I would expect her to be there with them, I just guess I wouldn't want her to participate in picking things out. Maybe I'm touchy on that subject.::
You shouldn't participate in picking things out either IMO. You make this about the children and their father...not the children, their father, and you. Have his things set out, let the kids go through them and pick things out. I understand why you'd be touchy on her participating...but get it into your mind that anything that's "out" is fair game...because you'll have already picked out the things you really want. These are just things, and in this case they might be tools to getting more involved in the lives of the kids. If she says "Oh DS3, wouldn't you love to have XXXX", that's being a good mother. She's trying to help her children. You need to step out of the "parent" role as much as possible, even if it hurts in the moment.
Would it be a really nice time for you and the girls to go through his stuff together? Absolutely. Resolve that at this time it's probably not going to happen. Get it into your mind that this time is about the children getting some things to remember their father by, not a time for you to bond with them over their father.
::I wanted one particular hoodie but so did DSD2 and it seemed churlish to tell a child no. ::
Exactly, we all know you're not going to do it, so then there's really no point in you being involved in picking out things other than as a bonding time. It's not something that you have to be involved in to make it work correctly.
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kdamron
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Post by kdamron on Nov 30, 2012 11:59:35 GMT -5
My biggest touchiness on her participation is regarding his watch collection and some sports things. I want the girls to get what they want, I don't want her guiding them to something that is more expensive. Uncharitable of me I know, but there has been a financial side to all of this and I don't want her steering them towards things that could be sold as opposed to kept for memories. Flame away - I'm sure I deserve it for that
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kdamron
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Post by kdamron on Nov 30, 2012 12:01:04 GMT -5
Oh, and in regards to all of that, at the point it is sold I intend to put the proceeds into an account opened by his friends intended to help pay for their first cars.
What I want like Hoops said will not be in the pile. Also, I'll be giving a few things to his friends.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Nov 30, 2012 12:04:58 GMT -5
You just keep making it. It has to be so hard right now.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Nov 30, 2012 12:07:58 GMT -5
::My biggest touchiness on her participation is regarding his watch collection and some sports things.::
I don't know that this is a good idea or a bad idea, but you don't have to simply say "here's all his stuff, have at it". I mean these kids aren't strangers to you, I see nothing wrong with putting together some things you KNOW they will want. Each of them gets a watch and something from the sports collection. "He would have wanted you to have this" kinda thing.
Think of the mechanics of having mom not involved? Are you going to tell her to shut her mouth? Are you going to tell the kids that after mom says "pick this thing out" that they can't have it because mom helped them pick it? You can't stop mom from being involved without starting some shit, which you probably don't want to do. There should be nothing in the pile that you wouldn't be comfortable with mom directing the kids towards. Just because she's his ex doesn't mean she might not have some good ideas about what her kids would really want in order to remember their father. If there are things that would make you cringe to have her help them select, find an alternative method of either giving those to the kids or not having them handed over to them at this point.
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kdamron
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Post by kdamron on Nov 30, 2012 12:13:56 GMT -5
::My biggest touchiness on her participation is regarding his watch collection and some sports things.:: I don't know that this is a good idea or a bad idea, but you don't have to simply say "here's all his stuff, have at it". I mean these kids aren't strangers to you, I see nothing wrong with putting together some things you KNOW they will want. Each of them gets a watch and something from the sports collection. "He would have wanted you to have this" kinda thing. Think of the mechanics of having mom not involved? Are you going to tell her to shut her mouth? Are you going to tell the kids that after mom says "pick this thing out" that they can't have it because mom helped them pick it? You can't stop mom from being involved without starting some shit, which you probably don't want to do. There should be nothing in the pile that you wouldn't be comfortable with mom directing the kids towards. Just because she's his ex doesn't mean she might not have some good ideas about what her kids would really want in order to remember their father. If there are things that would make you cringe to have her help them select, find an alternative method of either giving those to the kids or not having them handed over to them at this point. Good idea about picking things out for them of the more expensive things. I have an idea of which watches and what pictures or helmets the girls would like having. As for having her there helping them, that is the right thing to do so I will do it. I certainly will not try to contradict anything she suggests. Anything that I know he would want me to have I will already have.
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kdamron
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Post by kdamron on Nov 30, 2012 12:15:14 GMT -5
You just keep making it. It has to be so hard right now. It is hard. There's not a moment I don't have tears in my eyes and I can't feel my heart breaking.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Nov 30, 2012 12:22:27 GMT -5
::Good idea about picking things out for them of the more expensive things. I have an idea of which watches and what pictures or helmets the girls would like having.::
I can also imagine that as a child, there's something a little special about having an object(s) that I didn't just pick out, but that someone knew my father would have specifically wanted me to have. It's that little extra reminder that "dad loved you, and he would have wanted YOU, out of everyone in the world, to have this one special thing that was special to him".
I also think it's less likely that it gets sold that way. That's like a gift from dad as opposed to something I picked out because I wanted it.
::As for having her there helping them, that is the right thing to do so I will do it.::
As much as you can, forget "right". "Right" makes it easy to say "you stay out of it, this is about the girls". If you're able, think of it as having her there creates a bond between all of you. That's the bond you want in order to get contact with the girls more in the future. You having her there is your peace offering toward her. It's your way of saying "these are your girls, and you're the one in charge of them, I'm just an adult who cares about them an awful lot".
Hell, if you can stomache it, you might give bio mom one of his watches (again, if you can stomache it). "You're the mother of his children, he would have wanted all of the women in his life to have something to remember him by". I mean unless he despised her, it's probably not necessarily untrue. There are probably some things you can do in order to recognize that she's also grieving and has experienced a loss. The question is probably how much you can stomache given the way she's acted lately.
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Sam_2.0
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Post by Sam_2.0 on Nov 30, 2012 12:24:49 GMT -5
My aunt was in your position years ago, KD. My uncle was killed in a car wreck, and my aunt was the step-mom who tried to maintain a relationship with the two step kids they previously had joint custody of. The kids were even about the same ages but they were boy & girl. Mom pushed the aunt to give my uncle's gun collection to his 10yr old son. My aunt declined and said she was holding them for him until he turned 18. She knew the mom was just wanting to get the guns to sell them. My aunt actually gave everything over to my grandpa to hold for the kids until they were old enough to have it. Maybe you could do that with some things to be sure they will go to the girls when they are old enough but keep them safe until then?
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Nov 30, 2012 12:40:31 GMT -5
Maybe just send an email asking if there is something special they want. If they want something that will remind them of their Dad, they should be able to identify the object from memory.
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Abby Normal
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Post by Abby Normal on Nov 30, 2012 12:50:00 GMT -5
It could also be that she fears her kids like you too much. In her mind, when you with DH- the kids HAD to spend time with you. Now, they are wanting to be with you and she might be feeling like they prefer her to you. Insecuring can do some scary things. Ok - I can get that, you guys always remind me I'm not always right. I am selfish in my grief... KD- You aren't selfish. Please don't take what I said as an admonishment of you. I was merely pointing out, as a nuetral party, what she may be feeling. It does sound like she's being unreasonable. All you can really do, is try and keep contact with the girls, through phone and email, if she won't allow contact. You shouldn't have to sever your relationship with them. Now, it feels like you've lost your DH and your family, which is devastating. The nature of your relationship will have to change, but it doesn't have to go away. It may take the mom some time to "wake up". And even if she doesn't, the kids can make their own decisions as they age.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2012 12:55:38 GMT -5
To be honest, if I found out that my children were being taken to secret meetings I would be very upset. There has to be a better way.
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skubikky
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Post by skubikky on Nov 30, 2012 12:58:27 GMT -5
Okay, I get it, no meeting. I only emailed her when I was asked by DSD (who called me) to do it. And for the record, I sincerely doubt the girls want to see me more than their mom, they just probably need to see me too for the normalcy. I'm not going to kid myself. She is their mother. I get that. Obviously the girls have a lot of affection for you. That won't change. Especially if you handle yourself with dignity. The girls need their Mom more than anything right now. They need that love that no one else can provide. If you were to meet DSD at church it would demonstrate your willingness to be dishonest with their mother. That would be giving DSD a bad example of how to conduct yourself. She knows it's wrong and by your being complicit, in the end it would hurt any respect that she has for you. I think that it's hard right now for you to think clearly and to make reasonable decisions when it comes to your DSDs. I also suspect that your husbands ex-wife isn't the devil incarnate either. Provide the girls whatever support and love you can by calls or texting. Ask them if their Mom knows that they're in contact with you. And if she doesn't I would recommend that you ask them to be honest about that. I'm sure that some of what you are expressing towards this woman is misplaced anger at your DH. It's easy to pick her as a target but realize that in the end that will hurt the girls. I commend you for how much you care about them and suspect that somehow it will work out. I hope that you keep posting here as much as you can as I would like to believe that this will be a relief and help to you.
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justme
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Post by justme on Nov 30, 2012 13:44:39 GMT -5
I just want to second the poster who said to save things from their father for later in life events. My grandmother died when I was 12 and her kids split up her diamond bracelet between the grandkids. My parents waited until my senior year and took me to the jewelry store to pick out a setting to put the diamonds in so I could wear the necklace during my high school graduation. Looking back it even means more to me now than it did back then.
Save something to give them at high school graduation, college graduation should they go, for their wedding day, one of his sports memorabilia to hang in the first home they buy. I think it'd be a great way to keep their father in their lives in a way they won't expect.
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kdamron
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Post by kdamron on Nov 30, 2012 14:27:52 GMT -5
Oh, I honestly don't think she is the devil's incarnate, I suspect that we both have people whispering in our ears bad things about the other.
When I first posted this thread it was in the first flush of emotions, now I am calm and I see different perspectives.
In the past we have gotten along fine. I know that she has to grieve and she has a right to it, she was married to him at one time.
My emotions right now are in such a state of flux. I'll be fine and then ten minutes later I'm sobbing and cussing...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2012 14:32:47 GMT -5
Also kdamron, he was the father of her children. That is a significant loss even with them being split and her being in a new relationship. And there are no guideliines for that. She is not seen as the widow so she isn't necessarily getting the support you are.
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