swamp
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Looting
Oct 31, 2012 13:04:20 GMT -5
Post by swamp on Oct 31, 2012 13:04:20 GMT -5
necessary doens't include someone just coming on your property,. or taking your tv. How about your generator? you probably shouldn't shoot them. a warning shot is probably sufficient.
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swamp
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Oct 31, 2012 13:05:59 GMT -5
Post by swamp on Oct 31, 2012 13:05:59 GMT -5
Someone did get shot being in someone's driveway. I'd warn them to leave, they'd probably take a look at me and start laughing but I'd have the last laugh. would you be laughing after you got arrested?
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Deleted
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Looting
Oct 31, 2012 13:06:45 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2012 13:06:45 GMT -5
Someone did get shot being in someone's driveway. I'd warn them to leave, they'd probably take a look at me and start laughing but I'd have the last laugh. would you be laughing after you got arrested? Only if she knew her mug shot would be in a mug shot magazine.
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milee
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Oct 31, 2012 13:08:39 GMT -5
Post by milee on Oct 31, 2012 13:08:39 GMT -5
would you be laughing after you got arrested? I'd rather be sitting in a 6x6 cell than 6 feet under. Most of us would. But again, we're not talking about life threats, we're talking about simply protecting property. Property, not your life.
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swamp
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Oct 31, 2012 13:09:43 GMT -5
Post by swamp on Oct 31, 2012 13:09:43 GMT -5
would you be laughing after you got arrested? I'd rather be sitting in a 6x6 cell than 6 feet under. me too, but i'm not about to start picking off people who walk up my driveway. I also have a gun and know how to use it, but I'm not all excited about the prospect of shooting people, like some posters seem to be.
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Looting
Oct 31, 2012 13:11:00 GMT -5
Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Oct 31, 2012 13:11:00 GMT -5
I'd rather be sitting in a 6x6 cell than 6 feet under. Most of us would. But again, we're not talking about life threats, we're talking about simply protecting property. Property, not your life. But in my situation (or my folk's), property IS life. The generator was the only thing that kept them from hypothermia, as the temperature in their house WITH the fireplace going was a whopping 40 degrees.
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Looting
Oct 31, 2012 13:15:03 GMT -5
Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Oct 31, 2012 13:15:03 GMT -5
I'd rather be sitting in a 6x6 cell than 6 feet under. me too, but i'm not about to start picking off people who walk up my driveway. I also have a gun and know how to use it, but I'm not all excited about the prospect of shooting people, like some posters seem to be. Who is excited about shooting people. Like I said, what happened with my dad was a VERY real situation. Would you have allowed someone to walk away with your generator? What if the warning shot didn't work? At this point, they had been without power for nearly 2 weeks - and there was no estimate as to when they would get it back. The National Guard had been called out as the local police force was out of their depth and 911 was a joke. What would you do, Swamp.....if someone was interested in taking the generator that was keeping your family warm?
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swamp
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Oct 31, 2012 13:15:18 GMT -5
Post by swamp on Oct 31, 2012 13:15:18 GMT -5
Completely understandable if your folks did shoot the guy, but under NY law, it wouldn't be justified. Sorry. But I would have done the same thing. What's they guy gonna do, complain to the police he was out traveling around in violation of the travel ban on some backwoods road and no reason to be there and some dude pointed a gun at him?
The fear of death must be an immediate threat, not "we're gonna die in a few days from hypothermia"
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Looting
Oct 31, 2012 13:15:22 GMT -5
Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 31, 2012 13:15:22 GMT -5
But your dad didn't blow the guy's head off the moment he stopped the truck because he assumed the guy was going to steal the generator.
Your dad waited, got the gun and the guy ran off as soon as he saw it pointed at him.
I know you said your dad would have shot him if he had proceeded to make off with it, but I doubt your dad was as excited at the prospect of possibly have to kill someone as some posters here seem to be.
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swamp
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Oct 31, 2012 13:16:06 GMT -5
Post by swamp on Oct 31, 2012 13:16:06 GMT -5
me too, but i'm not about to start picking off people who walk up my driveway. I also have a gun and know how to use it, but I'm not all excited about the prospect of shooting people, like some posters seem to be. Who is excited about shooting people. Like I said, what happened with my dad was a VERY real situation. Would you have allowed someone to walk away with your generator? What if the warning shot didn't work? At this point, they had been without power for nearly 2 weeks - and there was no estimate as to when they would get it back. The National Guard had been called out as the local police force was out of their depth and 911 was a joke. What would you do, Swamp.....if someone was interested in taking the generator that was keeping your family warm? I don't know what I'd do, but I know that NY law would not give me a self defense justification. Shoot his tires out? BTW, I lived through the ice storm too. DH';s family had a dairy farm and had to milk with a generator for 3 weeks. There was lots of pointing guns at people scoping out generators, and I'm OK with it. But nobody got shot. I was working in the DA's office at the time, so I would have known who got shot and why.
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Looting
Oct 31, 2012 13:23:46 GMT -5
Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Oct 31, 2012 13:23:46 GMT -5
But your dad didn't blow the guy's head off the moment he stopped the truck because he assumed the guy was going to steal the generator. Your dad waited, got the gun and the guy ran off as soon as he saw it pointed at him. I know you said your dad would have shot him if he had proceeded to make off with it, but I doubt your dad was as excited at the prospect of possibly have to kill someone as some posters here seem to be. Undoubtedly. Massad Ayoob writes a book that is considered the legal bible for self defense. It's called In the Gravest Extreme, The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection. In the book, he interviews those who are in prison for crimes against people and in every case, those criminals would NOT have acted had they found themselves in danger - in other words, had their victim had more defenses than they had. This is exactly what happened with my dad. The potential criminals knew that he had a weapon and knew how to use it, so went off for easier picking.
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zibazinski
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Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
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Looting
Oct 31, 2012 13:28:35 GMT -5
Post by zibazinski on Oct 31, 2012 13:28:35 GMT -5
No one is excited about killing. I'm also not excited about being victimized either
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imawino
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Oct 31, 2012 13:35:34 GMT -5
Post by imawino on Oct 31, 2012 13:35:34 GMT -5
Who is excited about shooting people. Like I said, what happened with my dad was a VERY real situation. Would you have allowed someone to walk away with your generator? What if the warning shot didn't work? This wasn't directed at me, but I'll answer anyway: yes, I would let someone walk away with my generator rather than actually kill them. Oh, I'd probably point a gun at them and hope that scared them off, but actually kill someone over a material posession? No. Theft is not, and should not (in my super-humble opinion) ever become, a death-penalty crime.
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Deleted
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Looting
Oct 31, 2012 13:47:36 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2012 13:47:36 GMT -5
In the circumstances it wasn't a material possession, it was a means of survival.
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Looting
Oct 31, 2012 13:50:57 GMT -5
Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Oct 31, 2012 13:50:57 GMT -5
In the circumstances it wasn't a material possession, it was a means of survival. Exactly. No ice storm? Take the freaking generator or TV. But as I said, that ice storm was the ONLY thing that was keeping 2 elderly couples alive. They had already been without power over a week and were out of fireplace wood. They didn't get their power back on for another 2+ weeks after that.
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imawino
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Looting
Oct 31, 2012 13:54:18 GMT -5
Post by imawino on Oct 31, 2012 13:54:18 GMT -5
In the circumstances it wasn't a material possession, it was a means of survival. To an extent. But I don't agree to teh extent some people seem to be interpreting it. They were not in danger of imminent death. No one was going to freeze to death the minute the thing was unplugged. And granted, I've only skimmed the thread, but was there factually absolutely no other place they could have gone to stay alive? What if they had just run out of gas for the generator, would they have found a place to stay? What about people who may not have had a generator in the first place, or it stopped working? You are telling me there was no relative, friend, acquaintance, kind-hearted stranger who would take them in if they were bordering on death? No local shelter, Red Cross? Literally nothing? So everyone without a functioning generator just died?
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Deleted
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Looting
Oct 31, 2012 13:54:35 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2012 13:54:35 GMT -5
My grandparents survived that storm by staying in their galley kitchen (roughly 6 feet by 2 feet of walkable space) and boiling water on their gas stove. They steamed all of the wall paper off the walls. If someone tried to take their boiling water I bet my grandfather would have killed them.
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imawino
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Oct 31, 2012 13:57:35 GMT -5
Post by imawino on Oct 31, 2012 13:57:35 GMT -5
My grandparents survived that storm by staying in their galley kitchen (roughly 6 feet by 2 feet of walkable space) and boiling water on their gas stove. They steamed all of the wall paper off the walls. If someone tried to take their boiling water I bet my grandfather would have killed them. If he was smart, he would have boiled them up for supper.
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Deleted
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Looting
Oct 31, 2012 13:57:43 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2012 13:57:43 GMT -5
In the circumstances it wasn't a material possession, it was a means of survival. To an extent. But I don't agree to teh extent some people seem to be interpreting it. They were not in danger of imminent death. No one was going to freeze to death the minute the thing was unplugged. And granted, I've only skimmed the thread, but was there factually absolutely no other place they could have gone to stay alive? What if they had just run out of gas for the generator, would they have found a place to stay? What about people who may not have had a generator in the first place, or it stopped working? You are telling me there was no relative, friend, acquaintance, kind-hearted stranger who would take them in if they were bordering on death? No local shelter, Red Cross? Literally nothing? So everyone without a functioning generator just died? I'm not willing to put myself through that for a thief. They can do the running around. I probably wouldn't shoot to kill if I didn't think they had a gun or would shoot me, but they aren't taking my generator.
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Looting
Oct 31, 2012 14:02:34 GMT -5
Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Oct 31, 2012 14:02:34 GMT -5
but was there factually absolutely no other place they could have gone to stay alive? What if they had just run out of gas for the generator, would they have found a place to stay? What about people who may not have had a generator in the first place, or it stopped working? You are telling me there was no relative, friend, acquaintance, kind-hearted stranger who would take them in if they were bordering on death? No local shelter, Red Cross? Literally nothing? So everyone without a functioning generator just died?Some did. You don't seem to understand that the power was out from Montreal to just north of Albany, as far west as Watertown and into Vermont and New Hampshire. Hundred of sq miles was without power. www.nws.noaa.gov/os/assessments/pdfs/iceflood.pdfI had friends in the Syracuse area that I asked to go retrieve my parents. They got halfway to their home, but were turned around by the National Guards. Gas was pumped by generators.
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midjd
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Oct 31, 2012 14:05:33 GMT -5
Post by midjd on Oct 31, 2012 14:05:33 GMT -5
I don't know if that scenario is a good comparison to the typical looting scenario.
The OP implied that the looters were harming businesses and livelihoods, but that no lives were at stake. I don't believe lethal force is ever warranted for run of the mill looting.
If it's a life-or-death situation, it gets a little stickier, but I think Swamp is correct that the law would still not permit murder as a response to property theft - dire as the situation may be.
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imawino
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Oct 31, 2012 14:18:30 GMT -5
Post by imawino on Oct 31, 2012 14:18:30 GMT -5
To an extent. But I don't agree to teh extent some people seem to be interpreting it. They were not in danger of imminent death. No one was going to freeze to death the minute the thing was unplugged. And granted, I've only skimmed the thread, but was there factually absolutely no other place they could have gone to stay alive? What if they had just run out of gas for the generator, would they have found a place to stay? What about people who may not have had a generator in the first place, or it stopped working? You are telling me there was no relative, friend, acquaintance, kind-hearted stranger who would take them in if they were bordering on death? No local shelter, Red Cross? Literally nothing? So everyone without a functioning generator just died? I'm not willing to put myself through that for a thief. They can do the running around. I probably wouldn't shoot to kill if I didn't think they had a gun or would shoot me, but they aren't taking my generator. So what is your argument here - that they literally would have died without that generator and shooting them was a necessity to stay alive? Or that because it would be an admittedly enormous inconvenience to find someplace else to stay, that is grounds to kill someone because you "wouldn't go through that" for a thief? I think we are all on board with taking action if our lives are actually in imminent danger. But that's where reasonable people draw the line.
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Deleted
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Looting
Oct 31, 2012 14:27:09 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2012 14:27:09 GMT -5
I believe it actually is a means of survival and if they take the generator in those circumstances they are threatening my survival. I might be able to find another means of survival but I am justified in protecting this way of survival. I think reasonable people agree that I don't have to allow the theft of something that will mean I have to abandon my home.
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midjd
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Oct 31, 2012 14:31:05 GMT -5
Post by midjd on Oct 31, 2012 14:31:05 GMT -5
But there are ways to "not allow" it that don't rise to the level of shooting and possibly killing someone. The law is not going to permit you to shoot someone to avoid having to abandon your home.
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Peace Of Mind
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Looting
Oct 31, 2012 17:04:56 GMT -5
Post by Peace Of Mind on Oct 31, 2012 17:04:56 GMT -5
I would not shoot a looter for two reasons. 1. I don't own a gun and 2. I don't want a mess in my house. Take my stuff but leave the people and kitties alone. Thank you.
Zib - I'm going to frisk you next month just for fun. Or I'll ask you "Are you happy to see me or is that your gun?" ;D
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Deleted
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Looting
Oct 31, 2012 17:26:56 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2012 17:26:56 GMT -5
I yell out "¿Habla inglés?"
If they say no, I shoot.
If they say yes, I cuss them out in English and then shoot.
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zibazinski
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Oct 31, 2012 17:29:15 GMT -5
Post by zibazinski on Oct 31, 2012 17:29:15 GMT -5
;D. I'll see you the week of thanksgiving!
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Peace Of Mind
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Looting
Oct 31, 2012 21:54:05 GMT -5
Post by Peace Of Mind on Oct 31, 2012 21:54:05 GMT -5
;D. I'll see you the week of thanksgiving! I can't wait! Lone, LOL!! That sounds like a better idea.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2012 0:17:22 GMT -5
POM be careful!!! Zib is itching to pop a cap in someone's ass!
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Peace Of Mind
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[font color="#8f2520"]~ Drinks Well With Others ~[/font]
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Nov 1, 2012 0:20:12 GMT -5
POM be careful!!! Zib is itching to pop a cap in someone's ass! Angel, LMAO!!! I found it interesting that she felt the need to get her concealed weapon permit after we discussed meeting. I almost took it personally! ;D
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