midjd
Administrator
Your Money Admin
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 14:09:23 GMT -5
Posts: 17,719
|
Post by midjd on Nov 1, 2012 10:07:14 GMT -5
I don't think either of those outweigh the positives. I've never understood the mj-as-gateway-drug argument - don't most teens try cigarettes and alcohol first? Why aren't cigarettes considered a gateway drug?
You could also argue that the drug dealers who sell mj are the ones getting people to try the harder drugs (since that's where the profit is). I'm betting that someone who buys his or her smokes from the store isn't going to dial up a dealer just for the hell of it.
As far as getting access at younger ages - IME right now it's easier for younger kids to get access to the illegal drugs than it is to get alcohol. It used to be pretty easy to get cigarettes if you were <18, but they've cracked down on that quite a bit in the 10 years since I was in high school.
|
|
movingforward
Junior Associate
Joined: Sept 15, 2011 12:48:31 GMT -5
Posts: 8,358
|
Post by movingforward on Nov 1, 2012 10:29:07 GMT -5
and Sudafed rocked - that new shit sucks! You can't buy Sudafed? We still have it here but have to go to the pharmacy counter to get it. You have to show your license and they run it through the computer - I guess to make sure you haven' t bought a shitload of it in the last few days or something.
|
|
movingforward
Junior Associate
Joined: Sept 15, 2011 12:48:31 GMT -5
Posts: 8,358
|
Post by movingforward on Nov 1, 2012 10:31:52 GMT -5
there are positives and negatives in legalizing it positives tax it (income for feds and states) sorely needed less people incarerated (less expense to states) less cases for prosecution (we can concentrate on more heinous crimes) police and da offices drug business has less items to sell (maybe fewer of them) negatives how many people that try marijuana go on to harder and different drugs (5, 10, 15%) this is my most worrisome item how much of this now legal drug works its way into our schools at lower levels ( do we want stoners in elementary and junior high) the worries are few....but they are issues.....and maybe they outweigh the positives My feeling though is that those who move on to harder stuff would do so anyway - doesn't really matter if marijuana is legal or not. I think those who don't use drugs just have no desire to do so and I am not so sure that it being legal has any bearing on their choice
|
|
The Captain
Junior Associate
Hugs are good...
Joined: Jan 4, 2011 16:21:23 GMT -5
Posts: 8,717
Location: State of confusion
Favorite Drink: Whinnnne
|
Post by The Captain on Nov 1, 2012 11:50:06 GMT -5
I'm all for individual freedom. However, the issue I have is that individuals think they should be free to impose their views on others.
Take employers for example, I can just see the law suites from potheads claiming their "rights" will be violated if an employer requires a drug screen for a (let's assume) legal drug. Never mind that the employer is trying to limit their liability in case the employee causes an incident while "impacted" and there are no currently accurate tests to tell how much substance is in someones system.
Or the employee shows up stoned to work but the employer can't legally dismiss them because the drug is legal and it's impossible to medically prove there was enough in their system to impair them.
Heck, industries now a days can't hire enough people because a significant percentage can't pass the drug test (trucking for example). What will it be like if MJ is legalized?
|
|
Abby Normal
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 12:31:49 GMT -5
Posts: 3,501
|
Post by Abby Normal on Nov 1, 2012 11:50:34 GMT -5
and Sudafed rocked - that new shit sucks! You can't buy Sudafed? We still have it here but have to go to the pharmacy counter to get it. You have to show your license and they run it through the computer - I guess to make sure you haven' t bought a shitload of it in the last few days or something. No, you can no longer buy over the counter sudafed (the good stuff) in any qty. You have to have a prescription from the doctor. I had to travel a couple weeks ago for work. You can be your a$$ I bought some and brought it home. But there is a ballot here to legalize weed.
|
|
midjd
Administrator
Your Money Admin
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 14:09:23 GMT -5
Posts: 17,719
|
Post by midjd on Nov 1, 2012 11:57:59 GMT -5
The inability to tell if someone smoked today vs. 3 weeks ago is a problem. But it seems the rest of these job-related concerns are still present, currently, with other "legal" drugs - e.g. prescription painkillers.
I suppose it also depends on whether you're classifying mj as medical (in which case it would fall into the prescription drug category) or recreational (like alcohol). If the latter, I wouldn't think it would be a problem to ban it from the workplace completely - and if the former, there are still restrictions that can be imposed.
In this day and age, I can't believe the medical/scientific communities can't come up with SOME test that measures the recency of use.
|
|
Angel!
Senior Associate
Politics Admin
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 11:44:08 GMT -5
Posts: 10,722
|
Post by Angel! on Nov 1, 2012 12:14:06 GMT -5
In my state they have specifically said that if the law passes it will not impact an employers ability to drug test or have a drug free workplace.
I believe a blood test can accurately determine if a person is actually high & what level is in their system. A few years back they were looking at this for testing for DUIs. I'm guessing this will come up in any state that passes the law.
I know some are concerned about federal ramifications of making this legal. Will this cause the feds to reconsider their policy or will they take a hard line stance & look for opportunities to punish the state?
|
|
The Captain
Junior Associate
Hugs are good...
Joined: Jan 4, 2011 16:21:23 GMT -5
Posts: 8,717
Location: State of confusion
Favorite Drink: Whinnnne
|
Post by The Captain on Nov 1, 2012 13:44:47 GMT -5
Found the below interestering... www.middletownjournal.com/news/news/local/report-failed-drug-tests-leave-jobs-open-1/nNYjW/"Five percent to 10 percent of the hundreds of applicants are now failing their drug tests, Oakes said. Before, at least 25 percent failed, she said. “I feel it’s due to the fact it’s so hard to find a job. I think they know that so they’re trying to clean their act up, where before, I think they used to think, ‘Oh, I’ll fail today, but I’ll get a job tomorrow,’” Oakes said. “It ain’t that way anymore.”" Those are some pretty significant percentages. If you are TRULY trying to find work and fail a drug test because you can't go without your hit for a month, then isn't there a bigger problem? I know correlation does not imply causation but there seems to be a pretty significant link between drug use and unemployment. Another article on the same topic: beta.fool.com/latimerburned/2012/05/25/employment-problems/4935/"Like Alcoa, Rex is growing rapidly but they struggle to hire because of drug issues and it is becoming the number one issue in developing our workforce. I cannot tell you how many conferences and meetings I’ve attended with community leaders or businesses trying to hire that are spitting out 50%, 60% or 80% of candidates because they cannot pass a simple screening process. " But hey, go ahead and toke up. Just don't be surprised when you can't find a job.
|
|
The Captain
Junior Associate
Hugs are good...
Joined: Jan 4, 2011 16:21:23 GMT -5
Posts: 8,717
Location: State of confusion
Favorite Drink: Whinnnne
|
Post by The Captain on Nov 1, 2012 13:47:31 GMT -5
The inability to tell if someone smoked today vs. 3 weeks ago is a problem. But it seems the rest of these job-related concerns are still present, currently, with other "legal" drugs - e.g. prescription painkillers. I suppose it also depends on whether you're classifying mj as medical (in which case it would fall into the prescription drug category) or recreational (like alcohol). If the latter, I wouldn't think it would be a problem to ban it from the workplace completely - and if the former, there are still restrictions that can be imposed. In this day and age, I can't believe the medical/scientific communities can't come up with SOME test that measures the recency of use. I agree with you that the problems exist with prescription drugs as well, but at least in those cases if they test and the substance is present then they can request your doctor affirm the prescription. I suppose they could further request the doctor affirm that the prescribed level will not impact work safety performance.
|
|
Sum Dum Gai
Senior Associate
Joined: Aug 15, 2011 15:39:24 GMT -5
Posts: 19,892
|
Post by Sum Dum Gai on Nov 1, 2012 13:55:11 GMT -5
Exactly. I was on an unnecessarily large dose of morphine after my last surgery. Nobody is worried about me showing up to work all screwed up from that since it's legal. God forbid I toke up on the weekends and work though. It would be anarchy! Please. Americans these days are doing more drugs than at any point in our history. Just because it's a pill you get from your doctor doesn't mean it won't impair you. Somehow the business community seems to be managing just fine.
|
|
The Captain
Junior Associate
Hugs are good...
Joined: Jan 4, 2011 16:21:23 GMT -5
Posts: 8,717
Location: State of confusion
Favorite Drink: Whinnnne
|
Post by The Captain on Nov 1, 2012 13:59:22 GMT -5
Dark - do you operate heavy machinery? If so, would you have shown up to work "all screwed up"?
Doesn't that fact that folks can't even hold off for 30 days to get a clean test bother you at all?
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 3, 2024 18:19:12 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2012 14:01:43 GMT -5
I don't think either of those outweigh the positives. I've never understood the mj-as-gateway-drug argument - don't most teens try cigarettes and alcohol first? Why aren't cigarettes considered a gateway drug? You could also argue that the drug dealers who sell mj are the ones getting people to try the harder drugs (since that's where the profit is). I'm betting that someone who buys his or her smokes from the store isn't going to dial up a dealer just for the hell of it. As far as getting access at younger ages - IME right now it's easier for younger kids to get access to the illegal drugs than it is to get alcohol. It used to be pretty easy to get cigarettes if you were <18, but they've cracked down on that quite a bit in the 10 years since I was in high school. cigarettes dont give you a buzz alcohol i agree with...but it has been legal since prohibition was repealed and most kids i know steal the alcohol from their parents.....or get someone stupid to buy it for them hard to do when mom & pop dont smoke mj and when the buzz isnt enough to dull their senses is when most go on to harder drugs.....and mj is definitely a stepping stone there
|
|
Sum Dum Gai
Senior Associate
Joined: Aug 15, 2011 15:39:24 GMT -5
Posts: 19,892
|
Post by Sum Dum Gai on Nov 1, 2012 14:04:19 GMT -5
Not at work, but I have to commute in here. With the amount of morphine they put me on, there was no way I could drive here or back while taking it. I would have ended up wrapped around a tree on the side of the road, or in a ditch somewhere.
Yes and no. If somebody really can't go 30 days without toking up, they're an addict and need to get help. However, since marijuana is pretty comparable to alcohol, in my opinion, why does it matter whether they indulge in their off time? Companies don't insist people go 30 days without a single beer in order to get a job do they?
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 3, 2024 18:19:12 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2012 14:04:57 GMT -5
there are positives and negatives in legalizing it positives tax it (income for feds and states) sorely needed less people incarerated (less expense to states) less cases for prosecution (we can concentrate on more heinous crimes) police and da offices drug business has less items to sell (maybe fewer of them) negatives how many people that try marijuana go on to harder and different drugs (5, 10, 15%) this is my most worrisome item how much of this now legal drug works its way into our schools at lower levels ( do we want stoners in elementary and junior high) the worries are few....but they are issues.....and maybe they outweigh the positives Where does personal freedom fit in your list of pros and cons? it doesnt at this point because of the illegality you still have freedom to choose to partake....but if you do, you have to accept the consequences of your actions, just as if you were committing any crime if it is made legal.....as long as you dont endanger me or someone else with your actions, i could care less....but if you drive while under the influence, i say throw the book at you
|
|
midjd
Administrator
Your Money Admin
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 14:09:23 GMT -5
Posts: 17,719
|
Post by midjd on Nov 1, 2012 14:08:00 GMT -5
My only experience with this is secondhand, through DH, at his old job (steel mill). They had pre-employment drug testing, random drug testing, and "post-incident" drug testing (if you had to go to the hospital, for any reason, you were getting a drug test.) Over the course of the almost-two-years he worked there, probably half a dozen people were fired for testing positive for THC. Meanwhile, a small group of his coworkers were in the habit of crushing and snorting Oxy during their shifts. They all had prescriptions for it (although they were all taking waaaaaaaay in excess of the prescribed amount, and you're not supposed to crush it regardless.) Someone would be involved in an accident and would go off for their drug test. They would test positive for opiates, show their Rx, and go back to finish their shift. While the employer claimed these drug tests were to limit their liability - a totally valid reason given the nature of the work - it seemed pretty shortsighted to allow people under the influence of heavy narcotics to operate machinery simply because they had a valid prescription, while firing anyone who had THC in their system. I don't know what my point is, except that I am not a huge fan of prescription painkillers I do think employers' treatment of these vs. employers' treatment of marijuana (in states where it is legal) is somewhat of a double standard.
|
|
midjd
Administrator
Your Money Admin
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 14:09:23 GMT -5
Posts: 17,719
|
Post by midjd on Nov 1, 2012 14:09:54 GMT -5
They sure do when you start! I have only ever been a very casual/social smoker (til my employer started charging out the wazoo for health insurance if you don't sign the anti-smoking pledge) and it always gave me a buzz.
|
|
The Captain
Junior Associate
Hugs are good...
Joined: Jan 4, 2011 16:21:23 GMT -5
Posts: 8,717
Location: State of confusion
Favorite Drink: Whinnnne
|
Post by The Captain on Nov 1, 2012 14:10:55 GMT -5
Not at work, but I have to commute in here. With the amount of morphine they put me on, there was no way I could drive here or back while taking it. I would have ended up wrapped around a tree on the side of the road, or in a ditch somewhere. Yes and no. If somebody really can't go 30 days without toking up, they're an addict and need to get help. However, since marijuana is pretty comparable to alcohol, in my opinion, why does it matter whether they indulge in their off time? Companies don't insist people go 30 days without a single beer in order to get a job do they? I agree with you in theory. I honestly don't care about what people do in their free time. My concern comes from the fact that (based on what others have posted) there is no current test which accurately measures the LEVEL of substance in someones bloodsteam (such as exists with alcohol). If there is an incident at work how can an employer protect themselves? BTW this is not limited to manufacturing type jobs. Incidents can happen in cubeville as well.
|
|
Sum Dum Gai
Senior Associate
Joined: Aug 15, 2011 15:39:24 GMT -5
Posts: 19,892
|
Post by Sum Dum Gai on Nov 1, 2012 14:11:22 GMT -5
Bullshit. Alcohol gives you a buzz. When that buzz isn't enough to dull their senses do they go on to smoking crack?
Friggin caffeine gives you a buzz. Is coffee/soda the gateway drug? Maybe it's starts even earlier than that. We feed our kids sugary cereal which gives them a little buzz. When that stops being enough to dull the pain of their kindergarten existence, they move on to soda, then coffee, then crack. By high school, or the time they should be in high school if they hadn't dropped out, they're giving truckers blow jobs to feed their addiction, and all because we fed them Count Chocula when they were 4. Or, and I know this is pretty radical, there is no gateway drug. The people earnestly trying to smoke/snort/pill pop their brains away are doing so because of massive psychological damage and not because they tried sugar/coffee/tobacco/alcohol/marijuana/etc as a teen or young adult.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 3, 2024 18:19:12 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2012 14:14:48 GMT -5
They sure do when you start! I have only ever been a very casual/social smoker (til my employer started charging out the wazoo for health insurance if you don't sign the anti-smoking pledge) and it always gave me a buzz. i smoked for nearly 25 years never got a buzz i am sure we have other smokers on here...past or present did you ever get a buzz from a cigarette?
|
|
The Captain
Junior Associate
Hugs are good...
Joined: Jan 4, 2011 16:21:23 GMT -5
Posts: 8,717
Location: State of confusion
Favorite Drink: Whinnnne
|
Post by The Captain on Nov 1, 2012 14:15:38 GMT -5
If caffenine gives us a buzz then why does the: guy look so tired? Just saying...
|
|
NomoreDramaQ1015
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:26:32 GMT -5
Posts: 47,267
Member is Online
|
Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Nov 1, 2012 14:16:14 GMT -5
Is coffee/soda the gateway drug? Maybe it's starts even earlier than that. We feed our kids sugary cereal which gives them a little buzz. When that stops being enough to dull the pain of their kindergarten existence, they move on to soda, then coffee, then crack. By high school, or the time they should be in high school if they hadn't dropped out, they're giving truckers blow jobs to feed their addiction, and all because we fed them Count Chocula when they were 4
|
|
Sum Dum Gai
Senior Associate
Joined: Aug 15, 2011 15:39:24 GMT -5
Posts: 19,892
|
Post by Sum Dum Gai on Nov 1, 2012 14:17:29 GMT -5
Heck yeah. I've smoked for years. When I quit cold turkey for a little bit, say at least several days, when I fall off the wagon that first smoke always gives me a little head rush.
It's not really impairing like alcohol. Just a full body tingling kind of thing, and occasionally a touch of vertigo.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 3, 2024 18:19:12 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2012 14:18:47 GMT -5
Bullshit. Alcohol gives you a buzz. When that buzz isn't enough to dull their senses do they go on to smoking crack? Friggin caffeine gives you a buzz. Is coffee/soda the gateway drug? Maybe it's starts even earlier than that. We feed our kids sugary cereal which gives them a little buzz. When that stops being enough to dull the pain of their kindergarten existence, they move on to soda, then coffee, then crack. By high school, or the time they should be in high school if they hadn't dropped out, they're giving truckers blow jobs to feed their addiction, and all because we fed them Count Chocula when they were 4. Or, and I know this is pretty radical, there is no gateway drug. The people earnestly trying to smoke/snort/pill pop their brains away are doing so because of massive psychological damage and not because they tried sugar/coffee/tobacco/alcohol/marijuana/etc as a teen or young adult. you are comparing a SUGAR high with a pot high??? i said it CAN be stepping stone for a small % of people 5, 10, 15% there are countless studies on both sides.... again...to me it is an issue.....and i would not legalize pot because of it....imho of course
|
|
Phoenix84
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 17, 2011 21:42:35 GMT -5
Posts: 10,056
|
Post by Phoenix84 on Nov 1, 2012 14:23:04 GMT -5
I haven't read all the responses, and it looked like you've touched on this topic.
I have mixed feelings about this. Frankly, I don't think our country needs more potheads, we need the opposite. I realize in many ways it's comperable to alcohol, but still, any substance that causes mental degredation isn't good for the individual or society.
But it is true people are using it and some good could come of legalizing it. Tax revenue and regulation. It might lead to fewer younger users, as some have pointed out it is easier to get pot than cigeretts or alcohol because of regulations. However, it's also pretty easy to grow your own, so I'm not sure if that argument applies.
But the drug cartels do cause a lot of harm in Mexico and Central America, and perhaps legalizing it will put those cartels out of business and stop some of the violance.
Overall, I guess I could get behind legalized pot under certain conditions.
1. An employer should be able to maintain a drug policy that prevents their employees from smoking pot. If someone can't stop smoking to get a or keep a job, then they're an addict and not someone an employer should be forced to hire or keep on. We certainly don't want potheads operating heavy machinery or flying airplanes. I know some people don't think this is fair, but I don't think it's fair to make employers employ people who might damage the business or endanger the public because of their recreational drug use. So I think leaving drug tests for hiring and retaining employees should be up to the employer.
2. Pot should be illegal for anyone under 21, self explanatory.
|
|
Sum Dum Gai
Senior Associate
Joined: Aug 15, 2011 15:39:24 GMT -5
Posts: 19,892
|
Post by Sum Dum Gai on Nov 1, 2012 14:23:09 GMT -5
Have you ever eaten two cups of raw sugar?
The whole marijuana as a gateway drug movement started in the 80s during the war on drugs. It was basically a propaganda piece. They went to a prison and interviewed a bunch of people that were there on drug convictions. One of the questions they asked was what was the first drug that they had tried. Something like 90% said marijuana. They used that as proof that marijuana was a gateway drug and if you smoked it you would go on to harder drugs. The whole thing is a perfect example of faulty research and not understanding the difference between correlation and causation.
If they had asked those same drug offenders whether or not they were breast fed they would have found that 90% of them were. Is breast milk a gateway drug?
|
|
Angel!
Senior Associate
Politics Admin
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 11:44:08 GMT -5
Posts: 10,722
|
Post by Angel! on Nov 1, 2012 14:24:31 GMT -5
I agree with you in theory. I honestly don't care about what people do in their free time. My concern comes from the fact that (based on what others have posted) there is no current test which accurately measures the LEVEL of substance in someones bloodsteam (such as exists with alcohol). Sure there is. They can test for the levels of THC in your blood. The problem arises when defining a level at which someone is intoxicated. Much like BAC levels some people can function at very high levels while others can't. So, at least in CO they argued about the appropriate TCH level to be considered "intoxicated" & eventually killed the bill.
|
|
midjd
Administrator
Your Money Admin
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 14:09:23 GMT -5
Posts: 17,719
|
Post by midjd on Nov 1, 2012 14:24:44 GMT -5
You would not legalize pot because it can allegedly be a "stepping stone" for a small percentage of people?
Is it your view that if pot were legalized, a huge number of former non-smokers would begin smoking? If not, I don't see how legalizing it would have any effect on the stepping-stone issue.
And logically I think almost any drug or substance could be a "stepping stone" to the right person. Caffeine, Nyquil, sleeping pills, high doses of sugar... Doesn't mean they should be illegal.
|
|
Phoenix84
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 17, 2011 21:42:35 GMT -5
Posts: 10,056
|
Post by Phoenix84 on Nov 1, 2012 14:31:30 GMT -5
"Exactly. I was on an unnecessarily large dose of morphine after my last surgery. Nobody is worried about me showing up to work all screwed up from that since it's legal. God forbid I toke up on the weekends and work though. It would be anarchy! Please. Americans these days are doing more drugs than at any point in our history. Just because it's a pill you get from your doctor doesn't mean it won't impair you. Somehow the business community seems to be managing just fine. "
Are you comparing recreational drug use to drugs perscribed by a doctor for the purpose of treatment? They are not the same, not even close. A doctor would know if a drug causes any problems that would limit someone's ability to safely do their job and perscribe a course of action. Some average joe shooting up before work doesn't know (or likely even care) how his recreational drug use affects his job performace or safety. When you got a morphine injection, you did so under the care of a doctor, huge difference.
|
|
midjd
Administrator
Your Money Admin
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 14:09:23 GMT -5
Posts: 17,719
|
Post by midjd on Nov 1, 2012 14:34:53 GMT -5
Except that many employers see that you have a prescription and say "that's fine" - even if you're using WAY more than the prescribed amount.
I'm not denying that prescription painkillers and other such drugs have a legitimate purpose, but they are often used recreationally and in much greater quantities than a doctor would advise.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 3, 2024 18:19:12 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2012 14:35:42 GMT -5
You would not legalize pot because it can allegedly be a "stepping stone" for a small percentage of people? Is it your view that if pot were legalized, a huge number of former non-smokers would begin smoking? If not, I don't see how legalizing it would have any effect on the stepping-stone issue. And logically I think almost any drug or substance could be a "stepping stone" to the right person. Caffeine, Nyquil, sleeping pills, high doses of sugar... Doesn't mean they should be illegal. hey....isnt the first time my opinion is thought to be bat shit crazy on this board....and probably wont be the last If you legalize it, a % of people that never used it before can and would become regular users....some people are stickler for following the laws of the country and yes....if 10% of users do go on to harder drugs BECAUSE of mj smoking....that to me is enough to not legalize it, period. and again...the part to where if there is more around because it is legal...it will be even more accessible for the youngsters....and no....i dont think that is a good thing i know it happens now on occasion that elementary aged kids get high....but if it becomes legal, that would end up being a regular thing.....and that scares me
|
|