zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 26, 2012 13:05:02 GMT -5
Head Start has been around for years and its free. Unfortunately, it isn't required.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Oct 26, 2012 13:09:37 GMT -5
I would guess much of it is because they don't put much value on education. They were probably raised with a similar attitude & the is what led them to being poor in the first place. Also, they probably don't see the opportunities out there to teach their children to look for them. Then you figure some probably work too much & don't have enough time to be an involved parent. Then you figure some are just crappy parents, druggies or whatever & don't give a crap. When your parents raise you to think only rich kids can go to college & become an accountant (or whatever), how far do you really think you will get in life? If you are lucky you might find a mentor or someone that pushes you, but most probably just never do. See I don't buy into that. My dad never made it past fifth grade (his dad was a farmer and pulled him out of school to work the farm), had to work his ass off to support his family and told me an education was the key to success without having to break your back. I think too many people count on the safety net being there and figure an education is not essential (by education I don't mean only college BTW). Well I disagree. Not saying people like you Dad don't exist, they certainly do. But, I think many get stuck in poverty because of a victim mentality, which is hard to break free from & easy to pass on to your children. I've seen it in a lot of poor people I know. They think I'm lucky, they don't see that I've worked hard & they could do it to. They don't see a path to sucess in their future because the world is against them. They don't see opportunities are out there for them.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Oct 26, 2012 13:09:40 GMT -5
with regards to the whole income vs test scores debate. It's my understanding that years of data supports the statement that the higher the percentage of free or reduced lunch the lower the standardized test scores are for that school. I believe the reasoning they give is that "typically" people from higher incomes brackets place a stronger emphasis on education than those in lower income brackets.
When my son was little I had my choice of pre-schools I could send him to. How many days a week, how many hours, did I want swimming lessons included etc. When he got to Kindergarten they had a program called "K Plus" that I enrolled him in. He did regular morning kindergarten, lunch and then an afternoon program that "reinforced and expanded on" what they had learned that morning. At the time Kindergarten was only half day. They ended the program after a couple of years because it gave what they called the "wealthy kids" an advantage because you had to pay $150 a month for the K Plus option. Now Kindergarten is all day.
He was in speech therapy through the school distract but thanks to our insurance and paying additional out of pocket we were able to hire a speech pathologist at the hospital to work with DS 2 hours a week to supplement his school speech therapy.
We place a very high value on education and spend hundreds if not thousands every year on supplemental educational opportunities for DS. He attends engineering camps at the local college during the summer, does Youth in Government, Knowledge Bowl, etc. A kid from a lower income bracket wouldn't be able to participate in those activities unless their parents could afford it. This sets DS ahead of classmates that don't have those opportunities and virtually guarantees him high test scores and placement in the advance classes at his high school.
Kids from lower income brackets (and we are solidly middle class) could have those opportunities but it's a lot of hoops to jump through to get the scholarship for that program and difficult for some hourly workers to take time off to run their kid to those activities during the day.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Oct 26, 2012 13:16:57 GMT -5
I am looking into where DS should go to kindergarten next year. Open enrollment starts next week for the district I think I want him in. The school I wanted to send him to - one with huge parental involvement, nice area, great test scores, etc. Well, he can't go there because it is one of the few schools in the area that has absolutely no before/after school care options. The area is affluent & so many are single income with a SAHP or have nannies/grandparents/whatever that the school actually has no need for after school care.
Most of the other schools in the district do provide it, so I am looking into my other options.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2012 16:48:53 GMT -5
See I don't buy into that. My dad never made it past fifth grade (his dad was a farmer and pulled him out of school to work the farm), had to work his ass off to support his family and told me an education was the key to success without having to break your back. I think too many people count on the safety net being there and figure an education is not essential (by education I don't mean only college BTW). Well I disagree. Not saying people like you Dad don't exist, they certainly do. But, I think many get stuck in poverty because of a victim mentality, which is hard to break free from & easy to pass on to your children. I've seen it in a lot of poor people I know. They think I'm lucky, they don't see that I've worked hard & they could do it to. They don't see a path to sucess in their future because the world is against them. They don't see opportunities are out there for them. But it could also be the sense of entitlement that is (for lack of a better term) bred into some people. They see that by sitting back on the dole for welfare and having multiple kids, the government will give them money that they don't have to do anything to receive it but sit back and do nothing. They don't aspire to do more or be more and they pass that attitude on to their children.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Oct 26, 2012 17:53:28 GMT -5
Well I disagree. Not saying people like you Dad don't exist, they certainly do. But, I think many get stuck in poverty because of a victim mentality, which is hard to break free from & easy to pass on to your children. I've seen it in a lot of poor people I know. They think I'm lucky, they don't see that I've worked hard & they could do it to. They don't see a path to sucess in their future because the world is against them. They don't see opportunities are out there for them. But it could also be the sense of entitlement that is (for lack of a better term) bred into some people. They see that by sitting back on the dole for welfare and having multiple kids, the government will give them money that they don't have to do anything to receive it but sit back and do nothing. They don't aspire to do more or be more and they pass that attitude on to their children. Maybe, but based on my experience that isn't the case. Economically the idea you are portraying is that the free stuff is such a good deal, there is no point in working. If that was really the case why would anyone work? Yet most of our population does indeed work & not live off welfare. It isn't because we feel less entitled. Someone wants to pay me the equivalent of my salary & benefits & I don't have to work, not a deal I would likely pass up & I think most agree. No, the reason I work vs. getting welfare is that welfare doesn't provide nearly the equivalent salary/benefits. So there is an incentive to work for most people. Living on welfare does not produce an ideal lifestyle for them. I don't consider choosing welfare over working when welfare provides higher salary/benefits to be entitled, I consider that human nature. We are disincentivizing work in that scenario. Now that doesn't mean I think we should get of welfare as some suggest. I think it provides a important safety net. I think the program needs to be reworked to provide more incentives for working. Right now the programs for the most part provide such a low standard of living that most people do better working, which is why most aren't on welfare. But there are a few that between lack of education & victim mentality can't do better. If you want to get these people off welfare, you need to do it through education & opportunities. Create a way for them to have a better lifestyle than they can get on welfare & most will gladly take it. Do you really think most people would really prefer to live in poverty rather than work and be able to afford a nice car, to buy a house, vacations? Most (not all) would take the work. The problem is they don't know how to get to that point, their own mentality & the system is working against them. They really need to rework the program so there is no point at which making additional money causes a net loss & more will be able to get off welfare.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Oct 26, 2012 18:07:31 GMT -5
mid, If your statement is true, how the government comes up with money without the taxpayer. They are either borrowing from China, either printing. LOL! I was just getting to ask this same thing!!!! You beat me to it. What mid was saying is that most of us take more than we recieve through taxes. Most of us do not pay our full share for usage of roads, fire, police, national security, military, etc. Given that the top 20% pay almost 70% of the taxes, then the bottom 80% aren't paying close to their fair share. Then consider 1/3 of govt spending is borrowed from China & the situation is even worse. So unless you fall into the top 20%, you aren't paying for your share of govt usage.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Oct 26, 2012 18:26:53 GMT -5
Source, please.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Oct 26, 2012 18:28:39 GMT -5
Dude, 80% of us are "non-producers." We're being carried by the millionaires and billionaires of this country.
Yes, it is a problem. But it's not just limited to welfare recipients.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Oct 26, 2012 18:37:23 GMT -5
What mid was saying is that most of us take more than we recieve through taxes. Most of us do not pay our full share for usage of roads, fire, police, national security, military, etc. Given that the top 20% pay almost 70% of the taxes, then the bottom 80% aren't paying close to their fair share. Then consider 1/3 of govt spending is borrowed from China & the situation is even worse. So unless you fall into the top 20%, you aren't paying for your share of govt usage. And what taxes are those who are earning nothing, while sitting on welfare, paying? Well seeing as how their incomes are barely enough to survive, some pay nothing. But, yeah let's attack this with the "getting blood from a stone angle", that will work. How about we focus on reworking the programs & education & getting these people decent jobs so that they can pay taxes, rather than just expecting people in poverty to pay more in taxes with money they don't have.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Oct 26, 2012 18:41:56 GMT -5
My point is that unless you fall into that income category and are paying enough to cover the resources you consume, it's a little hypocritical to attack others for doing the same thing.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2012 18:42:08 GMT -5
I was listening to a show that was talking about a study in pre-schools & their importance. Years ago they did a study on some very, very poor kids (I'm thinking it was in inner-city Chicago, but could be wrong). A random selection of toddlers were provided free pre-school for a few hours, a few days/week for I think 2 years. They followed these kids & then those that weren't offered the pre-school for the next few decades. I don't recall the exact results, but basically it showed that these kids were able to learn soft-skills that made a difference in the rest of their lives. These kids were less likely to be in trouble as a teen, like half as likely to end up in jail as an adult, they had fewer stints of unemployment & better jobs. <snip>I don't know, but I found it interesting. I do think stuff like this is a good example why headstart & WIC & medicaid are important programs. Early in life not getting the right education, nutrition, or healthcare can make a significant impact on the rest of your life. I heard the same material in a podcast. If it was the same one, I found the detail about kindergarteners who didn't know what to do with a book because they'd never held one before absolutely heartbreaking. This was a pretty extreme case- the best possible preschool for the kids most at risk. I do not translate that into "let's fund public preschool for everybody". Head Start hasn't been proven to have any long-lasting implications and even with WIC and Medicaid you need parents who know how to buy and fix nutritious food and care enough to get their kids to the doctor. Will someone who's never read a book to his/her kid do that? We need to address the cultural problems underlying these issues and I don't know how.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2012 18:45:18 GMT -5
And that is why you need the scourge of YM, social workers, to make those evaluations on a case-by-case basis. Not blanket statements about whether people on welfare care about their children. (Contrary to what Zib says, social workers are not motivated to "keep people on the dole." I think Constanz and others can attest to that). The problem is, you don't actually have a social worker if you are on Medicaid, FS, etc... at least not in my county. They are "workers" who's job it is to simply follow a chart and approve or deny you based upon the information that you give them. No one actually "helps" you in any way other than to process the paperwork - if you get a decent "worker." The other problem is that assistance is completely tied into our current employment situation. Large employers pay low wages knowing it allows their employees to be on FS and Medicaid.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Oct 26, 2012 19:23:37 GMT -5
CBO report. The top 20% of households pay 94% of all personal income tax revenue. The top 1% pays about 40% of the total collected.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2012 11:14:06 GMT -5
Is lead paint still an issue, I haven't read everything and this might have already been talked about, but there was a study done in Detroit to find out why so many of the students did so poorly and needed special services. The study found that a high percentage of the students had very high levels of lead. I am not sure if I can find a link to the study or not.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2012 11:28:12 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2012 11:29:57 GMT -5
Thanks Shasta! I am trying to get ready for my dinner date with our Italian friends...and keep up with some of the threads. It isn't working very well!
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p8nt
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Post by p8nt on Oct 27, 2012 16:18:22 GMT -5
If you have not seen the documentary "Droupout Nation" I highly recommend you watch it. It was about a High School that focused exclusively on high risk students. Enormous resources went into providing as much assistance as possible to get the kids to graduate (the school was partialy supported by private donations). Time after time you saw how these kids' home situation practically guaranteed they would either fail or dropout. Obviously in none of those cases did the parent say, my kid staying with me is not in their best interest. This is an excellent documentary, you can see it on pbs.org
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 27, 2012 20:31:16 GMT -5
Barely enough to survive? Seriously? They are fed, sheltered, and are provided a middle class lifestyle without working for it. I've seen how people on welfare live and they live nicer than my grandparents lived who worked their whole lives.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2012 22:11:40 GMT -5
There was an article in the NY Times today about a lawsuit complaining too many asian kids are getting into public high schools that require testing for entry. It talks about how some of these asian kids came from absolute poverty but studied hard. The city began offering a free test-prep program several years ago for black and Hispanic students, but after a legal challenge, other ethnic groups were granted the same access to the course. Today, 43 percent of the students in the program are Asian. Three years ago, Ting Shi was one of them. You have to have a culture that values education and parental involvement or all the free programs in the world aren't going to fix the problem. www.nytimes.com/2012/10/27/education/a-grueling-admissions-test-highlights-a-racial-divide.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2012 7:40:28 GMT -5
anne, You have to have a culture that values education and parental involvement or all the free programs in the world aren't going to fix the problem. for you. ;D
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2012 8:59:06 GMT -5
Indeed but don't say that too loud... Some folks believe it is up to the school to educate and shape their kids.
My education started at home long before I knew what a school was and I plan to do the same for my kids.
I was raised that you make sure you take your kid 1 step further than you, that is what my grandparents did for my parents, what my parents did for me and what I hope to do for my kids.
It is no different than your money, no one else will care for your kid more than you so you need to advocate/fight and sacrifice for that kid.
Don't send them to school and blame the teacher, that teacher has another 20-30 kids to educate. Do your job as a parent.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2012 9:04:57 GMT -5
Indeed but don't say that too loud... Some folks believe it is up to the school to educate and shape their kids. My education started at home long before I knew what a school was and I plan to do the same for my kids. I was raised that you make sure you take your kid 1 step further than you, that is what my grandparents did for my parents, what my parents did for me and what I hope to do for my kids. It is no different than your money, no one else will care for your kid more than you so you need to advocate/fight and sacrifice for that kid. Don't send them to school and blame the teacher, that teacher has another 20-30 kids to educate. Do your job as a parent. ;D
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2012 9:05:43 GMT -5
Maybe this thread should have been titled, "Why is there so much want?"
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2012 12:08:16 GMT -5
Dude, 80% of us are "non-producers." We're being carried by the millionaires and billionaires of this country. That's my point!!! More people need to get off their butts and produce and stop depending on anyone, millionaires or our government, Dude. So how much more are you willing to pay in taxes?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2012 12:33:24 GMT -5
The solution to all problems is to remove the word "fair" from all languages. People with means feel it isn't fair that their tax dollars go to poor people. Poor people feel it isn't fair that they are poor. Once the word is removed from the language, people will realize that nothing in life is....oh crap, I can't remember the word to use here...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2012 13:23:24 GMT -5
The solution to all problems is to remove the word "fair" from all languages. People with means feel it isn't fair that their tax dollars go to poor people. Poor people feel it isn't fair that they are poor. Once the word is removed from the language, people will realize that nothing in life is....oh crap, I can't remember the word to use here... equal
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2012 13:47:55 GMT -5
The solution to all problems is to remove the word "fair" from all languages. People with means feel it isn't fair that their tax dollars go to poor people. Poor people feel it isn't fair that they are poor. Once the word is removed from the language, people will realize that nothing in life is....oh crap, I can't remember the word to use here... equal ;D
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Oct 28, 2012 15:02:42 GMT -5
Barely enough to survive? Seriously? They are fed, sheltered, and are provided a middle class lifestyle without working for it. I've seen how people on welfare live and they live nicer than my grandparents lived who worked their whole lives. Ha! Maybe welfare cases live differently in your area, but around here they certainly don't have a middle class lifestyle.
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Oct 28, 2012 15:03:25 GMT -5
I am looking into where DS should go to kindergarten next year. Open enrollment starts next week for the district I think I want him in. The school I wanted to send him to - one with huge parental involvement, nice area, great test scores, etc. Well, he can't go there because it is one of the few schools in the area that has absolutely no before/after school care options. The area is affluent & so many are single income with a SAHP or have nannies/grandparents/whatever that the school actually has no need for after school care. Most of the other schools in the district do provide it, so I am looking into my other options. My kids attend an academically above average school (although certainly not affluent). That said, my DD's 1st grade classroom has TEN weekly parent volunteers (including me). Basically the teacher is using us for remedial reading - about 11 of the 26 kids are behind so we pull them out every day (either am shift or pm) for extra attention. If we parents weren't there, I shudder to think what would happen to those kids as the school is strapped as it is for resources. This thread is interesting because everyone has a zillion gripes, but no one is really proposing specific, workable solutions. And if we brilliant YMers can't come up with a viable plan, how do we expect politicians to do it?
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