My ex-Landlord Sux! UPDATE!

[Deleted]

Thought you all would appreciate what it's like to deal with getting your deposit back from a Landlord in Germany.

We left on 29 June with our contract ending on 30 June. All rent was paid on a timely basis and in Germany, the typical deposit is 3 MONTHS of rent. Therefore in our case we are talking about Eu 6,000 or around $6,900. The landlord must open a separate bank account for the deposit and it is interest bearing. The deposit cannot be released without both tenants and LL's signature.

In addition to rent, a tenant is responsible for most pass throughs, i.e. gutter and chimney cleaning (required by law), property taxes, insurance and small repairs up to Eu 150. An annual reconcilation is done and any shortages or refunds must be paid to the other party.

On June 28 we did the final walk-through (die Protokol). We were told by the realty agents that the Protokol is the final determiner of any deposit deductions. We got a clean bill of health with no objections.

Last week we were FINALLY contacted by the LL who tried to deduct another month's worth of rent, the cost of their rep to do the walk through (for some unknown reason they pay their architect to do the walk throughs) and a water bill for the period of 7/1/12-7/14/12 when the new tenants' lease started. And the great surprise, a bill for garden waste of Eu 470!

I pushed back successfully on the rent, their rep's cost and the water bill but we have spent the weekend arguing over the garden bill. This is a bill for garden waste that was on the property BEFORE we moved in! Although I pointed it out to the husband early in our tenancy, it was not noted in our move in Protokol. The husband, an attorney, is remaining silent. He gifted the house to wife, so she is the legal owner. I want to give her the benefit of the doubt that she didn't know but I think he's a total Asshat for not fessing up.

At first I was really upset that she would think that we would leave such a mess. We tried really hard to be the tenants we would like to have. But it's become clear they just want to do another $500 deduction from our deposit. And as you know from another one of my threads, we were dream tenants compared to what I had to deal with from my two sets of tenants this summer.

I think we're probably legally correct by staying with the move-out Protokol but they are already coming up with other costs.

My ex-Landlord sux!

[Works4me]

So they expect you to keep paying for their costs AFTER the lease ended? Sounds to me like she has not accounted for the fact that there are costs to being a LL. WOW!

By chance have any pictures from around the time you moved in?

ETA - Good thing she is in Europe - I have some cheap freezer space down here on the Central Coast!

[tskeeter]

Yeah, I think the mentality of many lawyers (demonstrate that mine are bigger than yours and negotiate everything) makes them challenging to do business with. We had an attorney make an offer when we sold one of our houses. I refused to make a counter-offer. I told our agent that I wasn't going to sell to an attorney because three months after closing we'd still be negotiating the terms of the sale.

[Deleted]

Sarahjese,

Yeah, the way residential leases work in Germany are kind of like the way commercial leases work in the U.S. with the CAM (common area costs) being passed along to the tenant. Also there are schedules for repainting(e.g. after 3 years you must paint the kitchen and bathrooms if the property was newly painted before you moved in and prorations if you stay less 3 years. There are annual limits but as my husband's English boss said, isn't a German landlord responsible for anything?

And yes, my husband did take pictures before he moved in (I followed about a month later) but unfortunately we were burglarized (twice!) and both our cameras and laptops were stolen within weeks of me arriving in Germany. Any move-in pictures we had were stored on the stolen devices.

Tskeeter,

Yes, my husband said that had he known before the original lease negotiations that the husband was a lawyer and the wife Chinese that he would not have rented the property! I hate national stereotyping and have called my husband out on it but until I saw our friend, Singaporean born of Chinese parents start talking about how she was dealing with the deposit from her tenant of their house (in England) this spring I didn't want to believe it. She is otherwise, the nicest and most gentle person but when it comes to money she is an entirely unreasonable person. My husband says it's not a racial thing but a cultural thing; they are trained to be very aggressive about money.

Our ex-landlords are quite the pair. He's a charming, gregarious 70+ old man and I guess she's about 40. She is the beautiful ice princess. She is his first wife and they have 3 young children. I think part of the problem is that the house was his long before he met her. He still does the day to day stuff; we actually didn't meet her during our three year tenancy until the week before we moved out. I don't think she's been that involved other than collecting the rent and paying the bills (and she has his secretary do that) and he's been pushing her to be more involved. He titled the property in her name because its much easier to handle the inheritance of property. This is why I think the green-waste issue may have truly been a surprise to her. He probably didn't want to hear her bitch at him for letting the mess get so big and expensive to deal with. Much easier to blame us!

Fortunately not getting all our deposit isn't financially devastating to us but as a LL myself I just hate the greedy landlord who plays games with their tenants. It makes all of us look bad.

And I wanted to add; I'm trying to do all of this in German which is really difficult. I get the gist of stuff but not the nuances which can make a difference. They both speak excellent English and he used to respond to me about lease matters in English. But she is the only one who will now respond to me and only in German. It's possible that she's not comfortable writing in English but it just seems like more head games at this point.

[Deleted]

I'm sorry - they do suck. If it was just an argument over the garden bill it and the wife was ignorant it would be understandable but it seems pretty clear that she's trying to scam you for every dollar she can. Is there any agency you can file a complaint with so that future renters have some warning?

Hopefully you can get some peace and quiet soon!

[Deleted]

Thanks Anne. Your posts are always kind and supportive and I appreciate it.

There is some kind of German Landlord Blacklist roughly translated it's called Shit Landlords. I don't think posting their name there is going to be helpful to my cause, LOL. But we are in touch with the new tenants and have let them know what's going on. They are very nice people. She's from Brazil and he's German. They both spent their formative years in the US and English is really their preferred language. It's kind of funny; I understand that he writes to the landlord in English!

[Deleted]

Thanks Bonn, for your kind words!

My mom is Korean and despite over two decades living in the U.S. I'm surprised at what she thinks is acceptable, money-wise. One time I had to talk her out of bribing the local cops. Her siblings are similar in their financial transactions. They own businesses of their own but seem ignorant, or dismissive, of the actual law. It's seems odd because she is such a push over in every other aspect of her life but when it comes to money she can be aggressive and unreasonable.

I wish you the best with your landlord, and for the new tenants! Hopefully word will get around.

[Deleted]

Anne,

That is a funny story about your mom trying to bribe the police (although I'm sure it was mortifying at the time!).

How is she doing? Was she able to find permanent housing?

[Deleted]

She's doing better. Found permanent housing after I put down three or four months of rent. Unfortunately it seems clear that she will continue to decline mentally and emotionally, which is pretty typical with untreated mental illness. So I'm just focusing on the good times.

[lurkyloo]

Bonn: if you'd like a second opinion on any of the language feel free to PM me. (I also have a friend who practices landlord-tenant law in Germany, although I'd feel a little funny contacting him for the first time in a year to ask a favor.) I hope you get everything straightened out to your liking.

[Deleted]

Hi Lurky,

That's a really kind offer. I didn't know that you were fluent in German. Would love to hear your story (and you can PM me if you prefer). Are you familiar with the www.toytown.com German website for English speakers? It's been a great resource for me. I posted my situation there and have been contacted by an American woman who's been a paralegal in Germany for 20 years and I've also been in contact with a German attorney who posts there.

At this point I've drafted a nice letter in English (both wife and atty husband speak excellent English) offering to pay Eu 150 as a "spirit of compromise" and am waiting for my internet friends to review and comment on it.

Right now legally my landlord can't be doing what they are trying to do but the issue is what's it going to cost me to be "right'. I don't know if Germany has a small claims kind of system and even if they do whether it would be worth it for me to pursue.

I may just need to suck it up but if I do, I'm going to let the new tenant and both real estate agents know what jerks they are for taking advantage of the situation. Based on the posts I've read on the forum, there's a certain kind of landlord who seems to prey on foreigners...

I have such a different philosophy that it's hard for me to wrap my head around people like this.

Thanks again for your help and I'll post my progress.

[lurkyloo]

Oh, I just took it in school for years and then lived there for a year after undergraduate. I'm fluent enough that when I was there for work a couple of years ago I conducted a couple of customer visits in German, and I enjoy getting the chance to use it Sounds like you've got advisors helping that are much better equipped in legal matters, though; good for you.

I just hate dealing with really aggressive people...I think your offer is a good idea. 150e would be worth it to me to not have to deal with the headache. Will look forward to updates

[wvugurl26]

I hope you get it straightened out. It sounds like they are trying to take advantage of the situation. Karma is a wonderful thing.

[Works4me]

Bonn - sometimes I think it is hard for landlords to remember that the money they giving to the tenant is a refund of their initial deposit and that that money never really belonged to them. Add in the fact that she was given the property by her DH and is agressive with money (LOVE that term) and I can understand her behavior.

At times like this in my life I have been known to become condescendingly instructive. Usually helps in the long run and makes me feel better short term.

ETA - don't want to be a landlord, don't want to rent and don't want to be a property owner! lol

[Deleted]

"don't want to be a landlord, don't want to rent and don't want to be a property owner!"

LOL, I have days like that too!

[Works4me]

Being homeless has even less appeal so I pick the lesser of the evils and go with ownership ... at least for now!

Hope the remodel is going well and that your former LL comes to reality soon.

BFF is a Realtor and I recently saw a commercial freezer for sale on Craigslist which gave us some ideas and then a good laugh. Will let you know if we have any leftover space.

[Deleted]

Or I could just cook 'em up.

That's a new twist on letting someone "stew in their own juices".

[8 Bit WWBG]

All of a sudden my "video-record EVERYTHING so nobody can bury the truth" sounds a little less creepy.

[Deleted]

WWBG,

The Protokoll (Walk-through) in Germany is the final say. The landlord is not allowed to legally deduct anything once everyone signs off on it. But because we are in the States and Germany has no small claims court, they figure we won't spend the money to hire an attorney to get our EU 500 back. And they are right. So a video wouldn't do us any good if we're not willing to pursue the matter in court.

It's a total scam.

[Deleted]

UPDATE:

Got an e-mail this morning. My persistance paid off.

They are now returning the full deposit minus a small agreed upon deduction.



I may be older but I still have Redhead power! ;D

[Deleted]

[taz157]

[t-dog]

yeah!

[raeoflyte]

Oct 17, 2012 12:03:51 GMT -5 taz157 said:

[Works4me]

Don't mess with the redhead!

[Nazgul Girl]

Good for you, Boooey Bonny. That's very good news.

[8 Bit WWBG]

...:::"So a video wouldn't do us any good if we're not willing to pursue the matter in court.":::...

Fair point: evidence is meaningless if action will not be pursued. I'm just saying that I'd rather know I could back up my claims if I ever needed to make them, rather than relying on people being honest about what really happened.

ETA: I re-read the part about how the garden waste was there before you moved in, and the attorney husband has "neglected to mention that detail". Thats the kind of stuff I'm talking about when I say I intend to keep good detailed records.

I know you did fine, and it sounds like it worked out well. Congratulations, that is a huge weight off your shoulders. Its frustrating when they try to play these games.

[❤ mollymouser ❤]

Oct 17, 2012 9:59:52 GMT -5 @bonnap said:

UPDATE:

Got an e-mail this morning. My persistance paid off.

They are now returning the full deposit minus a small agreed upon deduction.



I may be older but I still have Redhead power! ;D

YAY!