HELP! I think my sister maybe an alcoholic

[perhaps]

I know many of you have been down this road with a family member, just looking for some advice and direction.

I have been getting a lot of drunk calls and texts from my sister lately. I have suspected for the past few years that she might be drinking too much. There has never been any regularity too it and not something I have tracked. But it has increased the last month with my niece, her only daughter off to college. I am stepping up and getting involved now b/c DN has brought it to my attention. DS has been texting and calling DN while she is at school and starting arguments with her. The next day she has no recollection of the events. And then tries to make it DN's fault when it is brought up. DN does not need to be dealing with this now and really a 17 yr old shouldn't have to.

So, my question. How do I handle this? DN reaching out to me is not something I take lightly. I have a feeling she may have been covering for DS for sometime now and is sick of it. I don't have a ton a specifics from DN yet. I plan on having a long conversation with her this week before talking to DS this week-end.

I appreciate any insight and advice any of you can provide. DS is not by any means a fall down drunk. She runs her own business and is very successful at it. I think she has turned to drinking over the years as a coping mechanism for failed relationships and the ups and downs of life. And now that DN is of too school I fear it will only get worse.

Thanks in advance.

[Nazgul Girl]

I would tell DN that she shouldn't talk to her mother when mom is drunk/intoxicated, and I would show her the drunken texts that she is sending you. If you cna be there for DN as a somewhat substitute mother, by all means do it. If DN is sober, and her mother drinks too much, she will eventually become estranged from her mother. I would also honestly tell your seister that " no one likes to be around a drunk. " I guess that's harsh, but it's reality, too.

[happyhoix]

I agree you should try to help DN. Is there a local support group for relatives for alcoholics DN could attend? She could learn how to deal with her mom's behavior without it impacting her own mental health.

It would be good if your DN knew she could come visit you on school breaks, rather than be forced to go home to her mom (if she doesn't want to).

As for your DS, sounds like she's a functional drunk. Unfortunately she most likely does not think she has a problem, and she probably won't listen to anything you or DN says about her drinking.

[Nazgul Girl]

My ex is a highly functioning alcoholic, with some "teautiful" excuses, such as " I need to drink in order to loosen up " and that sort of thing. He can operate on your dog in the morning, drink some stuff in the afternoon, and spay your kitty after four or five beers with ( ususally ) no mishaps. Wash, rinse, repeat the next day. In our 23 years of marriage, he went from 2 beers a day to 4 or 5, plus a couple of shots of whatever here and there. He was not one to call up people sloppy drunk, but he was certainly nasty and unpleasant. I can't remember a day when he didn't have some form of alcohol during our marriage, once the first few months had passed. His exactly-modulated drinking at least kept him even during the day, because if he was "off" his alcohol dosages, he got nastier and more and more introverted and moody. It was just "wonderful." I think it eventually contributed to his delusions of grandeur and his adoption of the stance that he was a mage. I feel sorry for the OP and her DN, but her sister is on the pathway to hell and possibly losing her business and her duaghter if she doesn't cut it out.

[milee]

Sept 17, 2012 7:50:10 GMT -5 Nazgul Girl said:

My ex is a highly functioning alcoholic, with some "teautiful" excuses, such as " I need to drink in order to loosen up " and that sort of thing. He can operate on your dog in the morning, drink some stuff in the afternoon, and spay your kitty after four or five beers with ( ususally ) no mishaps. Wash, rinse, repeat the next day. In our 23 years of marriage, he went from 2 beers a day to 4 or 5, plus a couple of shots of whatever here and there. He was not one to call up people sloppy drunk, but he was certainly nasty and unpleasant. I can't remember a day when he didn't have some form of alcohol during our marriage, once the first few months had passed. His exactly-modulated drinking at least kept him even during the day, because if he was "off" his alcohol dosages, he got nastier and more and more introverted and moody.

Ouch. I'm sorry both you and your DH's patients had to experience that.

We're irregular drinkers. Although there will be weeks where we'll have a glass of wine with dinner 3-4 nights and I usually do have a couple of drinks after sailing races, there are other weeks where we'll go without alcohol just because nobody thought to pull any out. On the plus side, if you don't drink often, it doesn't take much to give you a little buzz.

[milee]

Sept 17, 2012 7:53:22 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

Unfortunately she most likely does not think she has a problem, and she probably won't listen to anything you or DN says about her drinking.

I so totally agree. What would motivate her to stop drinking at this point in her life? Her relationships have failed and she apparently is choosing the alcohol over her family relationships.
I think we are going to be seeing more like your sister as our Me, Me, Me generation ages.

Not sure about the idea that this is a conscious choice of alcohol over family. From what I've seen of alcoholics around us, most kind of slip into it. It starts with self-medicating or overindulging too often in social situations, then moves into regular drinking where they're not necessarily drinking to get drunk it's just that their body is so used to a drink that they now need it to function. Seems like many of them didn't really make a conscious choice other than to avoid feeling bad and it all went downhill from there.

[raeoflyte]

There have always been drunks, and I'm sure always will be. As part of the "me" generation I don't see many people doing things that much differently than there parents did. In general don't we all end up just like our mom's or dad's? I'm just always curious about the talk about how times are so much worse now since it seems like every generation thinks the youngsters are going to run everything to hell and a hand basket.

OP--good luck. If possible I think it would be great for you and dn to get in with an al-anon group. It is admirable for your to talk to your sister and I do think that you should, and show her the texts (maybe let her calls go to voice mail so you have those as well). But be prepared for her not to listen to you, or to listen to you, show regret and want to change, only to call you drunk the same night.

Being there for your neice will be incredibly important to all of you--including your sister when she is in a better frame of mind.

[midjd]

Others have given some great advice. It's good that your DN feels she can come to you for support - keep those lines open. You might also want to give her a copy of the book Boundaries. It's really unfortunate that she has to deal with this at a young age, with so many other changes going on, but that book may at least help her put up healthy walls to protect herself. (Maybe also Codependent No More, if you suspect she's been covering up for your DS for some time...)

[Deleted]

Find a phone book or search online for your local Al-Anon group and get yourself there. There are also groups for children of alcoholics.

There is nothing, and I repeat NOTHING you can do to help this person, you can only help yourself. If you persist on thinking you can help, let me tell you this: The games that alcoholics play are sinister and sneaky. You can not EVER win. If and until your family member has hit bottom and becomes willing to do anything to change their life, you will remain helpless. Don't enable, don't make excuses for this person. Just take care of yourself by attending Al-Anon.

[chiver78]

I'm sorry you and your niece are dealing with this.

I don't know if you're aware, but there is a very helpful thread over on the Healthy Living sub-board for alcohol and drug addiction recovery. roy's a recovering addict and he posts articles and tips pretty regularly about how to pull yourself through it, and how to support a loved one that is addicted. he also tries to answer questions as best he can. he's been clean for over 10 years and now sponsors people himself.

you might find some information helpful to your situation, good luck.

notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=mentalhealth&action=display&thread=14065

[Nazgul Girl]

Sept 17, 2012 7:54:16 GMT -5 milee said:

Sept 17, 2012 7:50:10 GMT -5 Nazgul Girl said:

My ex is a highly functioning alcoholic, with some "teautiful" excuses, such as " I need to drink in order to loosen up " and that sort of thing. He can operate on your dog in the morning, drink some stuff in the afternoon, and spay your kitty after four or five beers with ( ususally ) no mishaps. Wash, rinse, repeat the next day. In our 23 years of marriage, he went from 2 beers a day to 4 or 5, plus a couple of shots of whatever here and there. He was not one to call up people sloppy drunk, but he was certainly nasty and unpleasant. I can't remember a day when he didn't have some form of alcohol during our marriage, once the first few months had passed. His exactly-modulated drinking at least kept him even during the day, because if he was "off" his alcohol dosages, he got nastier and more and more introverted and moody.

Ouch. I'm sorry both you and your DH's patients had to experience that.

We're irregular drinkers. Although there will be weeks where we'll have a glass of wine with dinner 3-4 nights and I usually do have a couple of drinks after sailing races, there are other weeks where we'll go without alcohol just because nobody thought to pull any out. On the plus side, if you don't drink often, it doesn't take much to give you a little buzz.

Thanks, Miliee. I felt for DH's clients, because they had no idea that he was/is a drinker. I do know he had a certain number of surgery cases that would die, but he specializes in highly-risky surgeries such as neoplasms and and hit-by-car trauma cases, so it stands to reason that he would have a somewhat higher-than-ususal mortality rate. He works for several practices doing surgeries they don't want to touch, and he developed a more humane way of surgery to declaw a cat. It was interesting. He's actually quite a good surgeon, except when something goes seriously wrong, or as my DD put it, " Dad's having a bad day." I think that he has a serious personity disorder, which he treats via the alcohol, and may possibly have more than one, from what I've been told by counselors. Who knows.

I think casual drinking ( as long as not driving ) is just fine. I am mildly teetotler to drink having a couple of drinks once in awhile. My brother doesn't drink at all, and my sister has a glass or two of wine nearly every night. My sister doesn't depend on the alcohol as far as I can tell.

I think, based on the years I spent with my ex, that casual nightly drinking can creep up on one, and it can gradually morph into someone becoming an alcoholic. I know that when I was cautioning a certain person who was a professional about his drinking ( based on what he wrote ), it wasn't taken well, but I lived so many years with a high-functioning alcoholic professional that it's sad to see the pattern possibly being repeated. There's nothing more fun then living with a spouse who has alcoholic rages.....

[perhaps]

Thanks for the advice so far.

My intention is to talk to DS and hopefully open her eyes a bit to the situation. She was seeing a therapist a while ago and seemed to be doing better with life issues. Unfortunately, she retired and DS quit on the idea of finding someone new. I think this is when she turned back to alcohol.

And I totally agree that she is lonely. Myself and her BFF are very close. We have both been keeping an eye on her and trying to involve her with plans and such. But there is only so much we can do. DS needs to manage her own down time.

I was planning on talking to DN about alanon. I know there are local meetings in her college town. I am just not sure if her schedule has time for it. But I suppose she will have to make the time.

[perhaps]

Chiver

thanks for the link. i will check it out.

[Tennesseer]

Sept 17, 2012 8:08:07 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

There have always been drunks, and I'm sure always will be. As part of the "me" generation I don't see many people doing things that much differently than there parents did. In general don't we all end up just like our mom's or dad's? I'm just always curious about the talk about how times are so much worse now since it seems like every generation thinks the youngsters are going to run everything to hell and a hand basket.

OP--good luck. If possible I think it would be great for you and dn to get in with an al-anon group. It is admirable for your to talk to your sister and I do think that you should, and show her the texts (maybe let her calls go to voice mail so you have those as well). But be prepared for her not to listen to you, or to listen to you, show regret and want to change, only to call you drunk the same night.

Being there for your neice will be incredibly important to all of you--including your sister when she is in a better frame of mind.

You get a karma because you know there have always been drunks whether it's the "Me, Me, Me generation", the 'Greatest Generation' or the Baby Boom' generation. After all, AA wasn't created just yesterday but back in 1935. And there were plenty of drunks prior to 1935.

'Perhaps'-get some professional advice before you wade into this and confront your sister. With your best of intentions, your sister will take your attempts to help her as a personal attack. You will need to have the tools to correctly deal with her. Drunks are crafty folks who have all sorts of excuses and defenses.

Her drinking will never stop though until she is ready to stop. This may take some time. For some, the drinking never stops until it's too late. You and your niece must accept this. Both of you need to get the right coping tools from the pros. Good luck.

[giramomma]

Besides the 12 step groups for your niece, she should also see if her college has a counseling center for students. Mine did, and I used them for a while to deal with my situation. Now, granted these are usually students who are the counselors, but it can't hurt as a resource. (And, I found in my case, if a student counselor wasn't prepared/qualified to really help me, they looked around until they could find someone who could.)

You may also consider buying a copy of "Boundaries" by Cloud and Townsend for your niece. I've found that it can be hard to have strong boundaries with your mom at 17. (For me, it was much easier to have boundaries with my mom when I was in my 20's and 30's. For a variety of reasons.) I also really like "The Language of Letting Go" by Beattie.

You also may want to think through some things yourself, OP. If things go down between DN and your sister, are you prepared to deal with the fallout? How far are you going to try to intervene? Can you have one "talk" with your sister, and be prepared to walk away yourself? Can you avoid getting "sucked in" (for lack of a better term)? How close are you all to the rest of your family? It's great that you are concerned for your sister, but, you also need to think of yourself.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

'Perhaps'-get some professional advice before you wade into this and confront your sister. With your best of intentions, your sister will take your attempts to help her as a personal attack. You will need to have the tools to correctly deal with her



Your sister also needs to get herself back into therapy which you can encourage but you can't make her go. It's not enough that she just stop drinking and it isn't enough that you try to "include" her.

All addicts have their own triggers, no two addicts abuse for the same reasons. Your sister has to identify her triggers and learn to recognize the path that eventually leads to drinking.

That's relapse counseling which your sister needs just as much as she needs to get sober. You can't prevent a relapse until you know WHY you relapse and can step off the path before you end up at the bottom of a bottle again.

Going to Al-anon is the best best for you and DN. Keep the channels open between you and your DN so she has someone stable to talk to and count on.

Keep the channels open for your sister as well but I recommend that you keep a firm distance as well. Addicts are very good at manipulating people and you don't want to end up getting sucked into her vortex.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. You and DN need counseling just as much as your sister does to make sure you don't end up enabling instead of helping.

[giramomma]

Sept 17, 2012 8:40:45 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

And I totally agree that she is lonely. Myself and her BFF are very close. We have both been keeping an eye on her and trying to involve her with plans and such. But there is only so much we can do. DS needs to manage her own down time.

I think we all need a reason, outside of ourselves, to exist and keep going. Without it, I too would seek the pain relief of alcohol or drugs.
Rather than friends, maybe your sis needs to be needed.

Yes, but needing to be needed taken to the extreme, can be just as unhealthy as addiction.

You keep going because you need to. Not because of others. If the OPs sister had a life outside of her daughter, then she wouldn't need to self-medicate when the daughter left. Sure, I think she can be sad, but self-medication indicates something isn't right.

I love my kids to death and would lay down my life for them. But, I will not set up a relationship with my kids such that neither one of us can cope without self-medication when we are separated. I've BTDT with my own mom. That's simply too much crap to pile on a kid trying to make their way through the world

[Tennesseer]

My father used to fall face first into his dinner plate after too much pre-meal drinking. My mother made all sorts of excuses for him. This went on for years.

I finally had to tell the two of them their behavior was harming me and my siblings and I could no longer see them if their drinking continued. I was 42 at the time I told them. Their drinking stopped that day and they never had another drop.

Whether or not they were no longer 'themselves' after they stopped drinking didn't matter to me. After all they were strangers and my enemies when they were drunk. Anything was better than dealing with them when they were drunk.

[Loopdilou]

I'm going to reiterate Al-Anon here. Not for your sister YET, but for you and your niece. Get the tools you need to deal with this before proceeding with your sister.

I should do the same thing for my sister.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

If you can't be separate from family without hitting the bottle or another vice that is an unfair burden to put on someone. People cannot be your personal savior. We are human and nobody can carry that kind of burden successfully.

An addict has to learn to deal with their own problems and learn coping skills that don't involve turning to their addiction.

To say that the sister and DN must allow themselves to be "needed" by DS otherwise she will fall off the wagon is a co-dependent relationship.

This is something al-anon will teach the OP and DN how to deal with. They will have to learn how to set boundaries with DS. They can still love her and want to be there for her, but it is extremely easy to fall into a co-depedent death spiral with an addict if you don't have the tools to deal with them.

[swamp]

Sept 17, 2012 9:33:38 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

Sept 17, 2012 9:28:30 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

If you can't be separate from family without hitting the bottle or another vice that is an unfair burden to put on someone. People cannot be your personal savior. We are human and nobody can carry that kind of burden successfully.

An addict has to learn to deal with their own problems and learn coping skills that don't involve turning to their addiction.

To say that the sister and DN must allow themselves to be "needed" by DS otherwise she will fall off the wagon is a co-dependent relationship.

This is something al-anon will teach the OP and DN how to deal with. They will have to learn how to set boundaries with DS. They can still love her and want to be there for her, but it is extremely easy to fall into a co-depedent death spiral with an addict if you don't have the tools to deal with them.

But don't we all, deep down inside, have a basic need to be needed?
Why exist at all, why deal with any of it, if no one needs you?

It's really unhealthy for one person to say to another "you are my sole reason for living, I need you, and if you don't need me, I'm going to start drinking my life away."

Being needed is nice. Being needed to keep the other person from cracking is just wrong.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Sure, but it's not the same thing when it comes to addiction. All that would be doing is replacing the bottle with the OP and DN and that is an awful burden to put on people.

An addict has to learn to deal with their own addiction and how to manage it. That's part of becoming sober and (hopefully) preventing relapse. They have to learn healthy coping skills that don't involve dependence on something.

I love DH and I need him in my life but I am not his personal savior. I support him 100% but it is up to him to recognize his triggers and avoid a relapse. I can't be his crutch, I can't be his wagon. He has to be able to stand on his own two feet without assistance from someone or something.

If you depend on people to be your coping mechanism then you will never succeed because people are imperfect and they aren't around forever.

Doesn't mean you don't need the support and help of others, but the desire to be sober and REMAIN sober has to come from within. It can't come from other people.

[swamp]

Sept 17, 2012 9:37:32 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

Being needed is nice. Being needed to keep the other person from cracking is just wrong.

You're right. But maybe there would have been no cracks if that person had been feeling needed all along.

Um, no. YOu really need to read up on chemical dependency addictions.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

But maybe there would have been no cracks if that person had been feeling needed all along

And we're back to co-dependence.

Addicts become addicts for all sorts of reasons. Sometimes it can stem from feeling like you aren't wanted/needed.

BUT once again you can't expect other people to become your wagon for you. People are imperfect they will always let you down eventually and you'll be right back to the bottle.

You have to learn how to deal with your trigger in a way that doesn't involve hitting the bottle or having to lean on other people to keep you from your vice.

Otherwise you will never become a recovering addict. No matter how many people try to fill up your void for you, it isn't going to matter.

An addict has to learn and accept that their addiction is their own and how to manage it on their own. Other people can't do it for them.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

So you're an addiction expert then? You have experience in treating addicts/recovering addicts?

Just because you think you see and know a pattern doesn't mean you have the first clue about why someone starts down the road of addiction and continues to remain on it.

But there comes a time when there seems to be no point in even trying.

And that is their choice. DH is the sole person responsible for his decision to pick up a pill bottle. He is also the sole person responsible for if he continues to actively use.

Only DH can decide if it is worth recovering or not. He also has to be the one, for the rest of his life, to contine to make the effort to stay sober.

I can't be his savior. I could never take a pill or have a pill in the house for the rest of my life but if DH REALLY wants to head down that road again, he will find a way to do it.

To say that I am responsible for that is an unfair burden to put on the around an addict. An addict's choice is an addict's own.

If they can't accept that, then they will never make it to being a recovering addict.

[Tennesseer]

While not related to alcoholism, there is one of those "Help I've fallen down and can't get up" commercials where the fallen woman states she didn't want to die and "I couldn't imagine my children and grandchildren going on without me."

Get over it lady. Your children and grandchildren can and will go on without you when the time comes.

[swamp]

Sept 17, 2012 9:46:40 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

Sept 17, 2012 9:40:05 GMT -5 swamp said:

Um, no. YOu really need to read up on chemical dependency addictions.

I have read about them. We have alcoholics in our family and with everyone of them I am seeing the same patterns to the start of their addictions.

If you've read, you realize that their addictions start for a myriad of reasons, that there is a physical component to the dependency, and an addict will also tell you whatever they want to hear so you will continue to provide them with whatever you are currently providing them with so it can feed their addiction?

[giramomma]

Sept 17, 2012 9:00:37 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

But why the need to feel we must separate from our kids?
DH and I thrive on our kids and grand kids needing us to stay in their lives. Without that, we would have little reason to keep going.
It gets to a point where existing simply to exist becomes pointless and that's when the pain sets in.

My mom "needed" me. By the time I was 8, I was her best friend, her confidant, and emotionally supported her like a husband.

I was f'ing 8.

When I moved out to college, my parents didn't speak to each other for 2-3 months at a time. They'd go through this cycle at least a few times a year. Because they let their marriage go over 18 years. My mom needed me. Once again, I filled the role of best friend/confidant/supposed to support her like a husband. Should a young adult really have to fill this role for a parent? I should have been worried about school, dating, and the whole college scene. I shouldn't have had to be worried about being responsible for my mom's happiness. I should not have been worried about my parent's marriage and be put in the position to help fix it because I was gone.

Of course I want to help my kids/grandkids if they need it. But I also have a life. I have hobbies I have given up because now is the season in my life to be an involved parent. I am frankly, embarrassed that I am no longer as well read as I used to be. I don't attend as many cultural activities as I used to. We don't go hiking as much as we used to.

I think I will have failed as a parent if my kids continue to need me as they do now-relying on me (and my husband) to provide food, clothing, shelter, washing their clothes, buying their clothes, emotional support, guidance, etc. etc for the rest of their lives. Cripes, what if I die when my kids are in their late teens? Then what? They have no choice but to be independent. I don't want them to call me up every time my kids need to make a decision. Big ones, sure. But, not every freaking thing they have to decide.

I will have had 20+ years to to be the primary focus of my kid's life. At some point, I will be extended family to my kids. And I'm going to welcome that shift in roles with welcome arms. I'm not going to expect that my kids put me before their spouse, their own kids, their jobs, etc.

Again, I've BTDT, got the huge therapy bills for being my parents end all and be all. And, from this kid's perspective-sometimes it really sucked monkey balls.

[swamp]

Sept 17, 2012 9:57:07 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

Sept 17, 2012 9:50:02 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

So you're an addiction expert then? You have experience in treating addicts/recovering addicts?

No, but from what you've written it appears that you think you are.
Go forward and enlighten us all.

Lone, I actually do have training in drug/alcohol addiction, the causes, the manifestation, and the treatment of it. I serve on the County's Drug Court Team.

It is so much more complicated than "being needed" or lacking love or support. I work with people on the team who have been doing this for 20 years. They still don't know why Johnny becomes and addict but Susie doesn't, or why Sally keeps relapsing but Tommy doesn't.

The training sessions were run by guys with 40 years experience and they still don't have all the answers.

But they all agree that throwing more "love" down a giant abyss of neediness doesn't fix the addiction.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

No, but from what you've written it appears that you think you are.

I'm not an expert but I am married to one and I'll be married to a recovering addict for the rest of our lives since it is constant work to keep DH from taking pills.

I spent a huge amount of time blaming myself for it and thinking of all the ways I should have handled it different to prevent him from relapsing.

The big thing our therapist told me (who is an addiction specialist by the way) is that it is DH's choice to take the pills. At any point before he took them he could have stopped himself and put the pills down. He didn't. DH's actions are his own and he has to own up to them.

I did some things that enabling him and for the rest of my life I have to pay attention to my behavior to make sure I don't make it easy for him to fall off the wagon again.

But it is HIS choice to fall off the wagon. It's his choice to decide to turn to chemical dependency rather than use other coping mechanicams and/or get help.

I can't make him not use. No matter how much I am "there" for him I can't make him never use again a day in his life. He has to actively choose to not to seek out pills and deal with his demons in other ways.

That is the difference between an active user and a recovering user. Most addicts never make it to the recovering part because they don't have that epihany.

Also many people around them don't get help and have the epiphany that they are enablers and will continue to assist with the self destructive behavior.