Unwed moms

[Phoenix84]

"I agree with everything you said. I also think with some topics, people let their personal emotions color how they read other people's posts and start reading between the lines, inserting their own narrative."

I agree with this. I was thinking about this at dinner, and realized that I'm not contradicting myself, it's I don't fit into the preconceived notions about what other people think I believe.

Okay, Chiver, quote one post where you think I said one thing, and then quote another where I said something different. Maybe that will help clarify things for you.

[Deleted]

IMHO, imparting your thoughts on a teen girl doesn't always work.
Hormones and teen boys most often rule.

I think, we as young women (resulting in pregnancy or not) were so immature/insecure/needy or irresponsible in our thinking, may of thought.. If we say no, once, to the young man's intense needs, (or ours) or no, one time too many we might lose our young man to the other female over there somewhere who was waiting and willing..

I believe there are absolute right and wrongs concerning sex and with whom. I am not here to argue my stand. They are what they are. I've probably broken 99 out of 100 of those absolute rights. I also believe good can eventually come from every negative scenario named on this thread whether children were born and raised in bad/broken marriages or out of wedlock, be it teenage or adult.. A stable home is always best for children, and adults too for that matter. Throw your dog and/or cat in there too. Even domestic animals are affected by unstable homes..

I was one of those (stupid, someone said) pregnant teenagers who had it very tough during and after the birth of my daughter and was severely shunned. If I had to do teenage years again, I would prefer not to have done so, pregnant, for many unnamed reasons. The consequences were horrendous..

[chiver78]

Sept 14, 2012 21:49:03 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

Okay, Chiver, quote one post where you think I said one thing, and then quote another where I said something different. Maybe that will help clarify things for you.

I'm looking for the one that bugs me, and can't find the original. what I have is what weltz quoted, which I recognized immediately as your post when I first saw it. when I find the original, I'll update this post. your comment is above the -------------- line. okay, first quote:

Sept 14, 2012 16:02:19 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

I know people like to scoff at premairital sex as antiquated, but really the world wuld be a lot better off if people would wait until they're ready to have kids. Sex has consequences and just because you have the equipment doesn't mean you can have sex responsibly.
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Lol! So, sex should be only for procreation? You're adorable.

and the quote where you pushed back on weltz:

Sept 14, 2012 16:49:50 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

"Lol! So, sex should be only for procreation? You're adorable."

I'm not sure where you got that idea. You seem to be putting words in my mouth. I was making the point there are a lot of unfit parents in the world, and a lot of abused and neglected children in society. Children also have the highest poverty rate of any group. If parents were responsible and used protection or kept it in their pants more we wouldn't have so many needy kids. I never claimed that people should only have sex for procreation, I am advocating people use protection or don't have sex to prevent undesirable consequences.

Don't you think the world would be better off if every child born was wanted and could be cared for by loving parents who was able to provide for them? Or is people having wild sex without respect for the consequences of who they hurt a good thing (either themselves or their kids) a good thing?

sorry, I haven't posted myself yet in-thread, but these jumped out at me as being quite contradictory. which is your real opinion, and please stick to it. is it that you want people to completely abstain until they are actually ready to conceive and carry to live birth - which isn't what your second post sounds like......or is it that you want people to be responsible about their sexual relations that aren't at all intended for procreation - which is absolutely not what your first post sounds like? I apologize for my confusion, but you're posting out of both sides of your mouth here. from the posts in this thread, I know I'm not the only one confused.

[chiver78]

Sept 14, 2012 22:04:08 GMT -5 @heart2heart said:

I was one of those (stupid, someone said) pregnant teenagers who had it very tough during and after the birth of my daughter and was severely shunned. If I had to do teenage years again, I would prefer not to have done so, pregnant, for many unnamed reasons. The consequences were horrendous..

hugs, luv. it sounds like you made it through, in spite of your surroundings.

[Deleted]

Thanks for the hugs..

[Deleted]

Things kids should know

1) Abstinence/Chastity should be taught.
2) Sex ed (including protection & birth control) also needs to be taught.
3) Teach kids that sex =/= love and not to pressure / give in to pressure for sex.
4) Just because you're old enough to have sex, it doesn't mean you're ready to to have sex.
5) Pregnancy is not the only worry - need to be wary of STDs, you're not just having worry about that person, but also every person they had sex with too.
6) Best case scenario - Wait until you're in a committed relationship where you and your partner are ready both emotionally and financially to get married/be a parent if pregnancy occurs.

Various parts of the list would be taught as age appropriate at different age/grade levels.

[Firebird]

foodiedad, what do you mean by chastity? Honestly curious.

[quince]

I never understood the "Worry about every person your partner has had sex with" idea.

They have tests. For STDs. So you really just have to worry about your partner- being honest about their testing status and abstinent during the incubation periods...

Now if there's a scenario with someone having multiple sex partners in parallel- yeah, worry about more than one person's bedroom habits.

And I'm all for abstinence being taught. Other than homosexual intercourse, oral sex, manual stimulation, and clothed frottage, it's the only 100% way to be sure of not conceiving! It's a really quick class, too.

You can also choose not to have sex.

The end.

[Deleted]

Sept 14, 2012 23:28:48 GMT -5 Firebird said:

foodiedad, what do you mean by chastity? Honestly curious.

I would use it interchangeably with abstinence, depending on the target age/demographic of the audience.

Sept 14, 2012 23:31:12 GMT -5 quince said:

I never understood the "Worry about every person your partner has had sex with" idea.

They have tests. For STDs. So you really just have to worry about your partner- being honest about their testing status and abstinent during the incubation periods...

I agree - but how many young adults are going to run to the doctor for a test?

Besides, the test is not accurate if you have been exposed to something within the 'incubation window' which could range from six months to a year (or more) - what are the odds of someone who has been sexually active waiting a year (or more) between sexual encounters?

[quince]

...I waited 8 years.

My husband waited 5.

Small sample, I know. Greater than 0% chance, at least. Low libidos? Once every decade does it for us?

They have a test for HIV that has an incubation window of 9-11 days. Wow, things have changed since high school.

I do agree that young adults and teens cultivate an "It can't happen to me." attitude when they aren't cautious nerdly types. That's why thorough education is important, and I think removing the stigma from STI testing is a good thing.

I don't think abstaining from sex is bad, and I do think it should be pointed out early on, and reinforced as a good choice- without delivering the message that everyone who chooses not to abstain is making a BAD choice.

[Phoenix84]

Okay Chiver,

This is probably my more "clear" statement of what I think,

"I'm not sure where you got that idea. You seem to be putting words in my mouth. I was making the point there are a lot of unfit parents in the world, and a lot of abused and neglected children in society. Children also have the highest poverty rate of any group. If parents were responsible and used protection or kept it in their pants more we wouldn't have so many needy kids. I never claimed that people should only have sex for procreation, I am advocating people use protection or don't have sex to prevent undesirable consequences.

Don't you think the world would be better off if every child born was wanted and could be cared for by loving parents who was able to provide for them? Or is people having wild sex without respect for the consequences of who they hurt a good thing (either themselves or their kids) a good thing?"

However, I don't think they contradict, because you're misunderstanding me when I say this.

"I know people like to scoff at premairital sex as antiquated, but really the world wuld be a lot better off if people would wait until they're ready to have kids. Sex has consequences and just because you have the equipment doesn't mean you can have sex responsibly."

I wasn't specifically saying that premarrital sex (or lack thereof) was a philosophy everyone had to follow. However, abstinance (until you're ready) is ONE way in which you can choose to have sex responsibly. I was using no premarrital sex AS AN EXAMPLE but by no means the ONLY WAY one can achive safe sex. When I was writing "don't have kids until you're ready" I was refering in a more general sense. I realize that most people probably will choose to have sex before marriage, and if they do I hope they use protection.

So I was starting off with an example of (in mind) responsible sex, and then moving on in the second sentance with a more broad statement.

I had actually considered clarifying that statement after I wrote it to include BC, but I thought I didn't need to. Apparantly i did. But this whole discussion about birth control or abstinance or what's best.... I do think you're focusing too much on the specifics instead of the general philosophy of safe sex.

[Phoenix84]

"1) Abstinence/Chastity should be taught.
2) Sex ed (including protection & birth control) also needs to be taught.
3) Teach kids that sex =/= love and not to pressure / give in to pressure for sex.
4) Just because you're old enough to have sex, it doesn't mean you're ready to to have sex.
5) Pregnancy is not the only worry - need to be wary of STDs, you're not just having worry about that person, but also every person they had sex with too.
6) Best case scenario - Wait until you're in a committed relationship where you and your partner are ready both emotionally and financially to get married/be a parent if pregnancy occurs."

i'm not sure if I would use the term chastity, but beyond that I agree with everything you stated.

I know some people hate the idea of teaching absintance, but I think it's good as long it's presented alongside other methods of birth control and the idea that you don't have to have sex if you don't want to.

And yes, pregnancy is by far not the only thing you need to think about when having sex either.

[Loopdilou]

Hahahaha.. because getting married is like some sort of pre-sex hazing ritual that automatically means you're responsible enough to have kids.

As if.

[Deleted]

People hate abstinence ONLY education. I don't know anyone who says you shouldn't add a plug for abstinence in there... As someone mentioned, short class really... But don't expect it to be effective for a majority of kids, don't make it the only thing you teach. ONLY is the problem, not abstinence.

[raeoflyte]

Sept 15, 2012 5:45:45 GMT -5 oped said:

People hate abstinence ONLY education. I don't know anyone who says you shouldn't add a plug for abstinence in there... As someone mentioned, short class really... But don't expect it to be effective for a majority of kids, don't make it the only thing you teach. ONLY is the problem, not abstinence.

[Deleted]

I was taught abstinence only, in a very fearful way.. I taught my children abstinence, only, which also meant no babies. They proved better than myself in the latter while under my roof.

I believe abstaining until marriage is right and best. But that's just me.

Then there are choices. I chose to have sex before marriage for several reasons and somehow wasn't thinking sex could equal baby.. Talk about immature? I was.

I also believe whenever wrong choices are made, forgiveness is available.. But that is a whole other matter.

Each of us have the liberty to teach what we believe is right, knowing the choice to adhere to what is taught, is left up to the individual..

[weltschmerz]

I believe abstaining until marriage is right and best. But that's just me.
----------------
Just out of curiousity, what if the marriage falls apart or the husband passes away? Abstain until the next marriage?

[Deleted]

Sept 15, 2012 9:34:07 GMT -5 @heart2heart said:

I was taught abstinence only, in a very fearful way.. I taught my children abstinence, only, which also meant no babies. They proved better than myself in the latter while under my roof.

I believe abstaining until marriage is right and best. But that's just me.

Then there are choices. I chose to have sex before marriage for several reasons and somehow wasn't thinking sex could equal baby.. Talk about immature? I was.

I also believe whenever wrong choices are made, forgiveness is available.. But that is a whole other matter.

Each of us have the liberty to teach what we believe is right, knowing the choice to adhere to what is taught, is left up to the individual..

so you believe in abstinence before marriage but then had premarital sex?

you then taught your children that abstinence until marriage is the right way even though you didn't live up to your own standards?

color me confused?

[weltschmerz]

so you believe in abstinence before marriage but then had premarital sex?

you then taught your children that abstinence until marriage is the right way even though you didn't live up to your own standards?

color me confused?
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Well, shades of Sarah Palin!! She was promoting abstinence-only but got knocked up herself, and had to have a quickie wedding. Same for Bristol and Track.

[weltschmerz]

Proof that AO only works in theory.

[Deleted]

Just out of curiousity, what if the marriage falls apart or the husband passes away? Abstain until the next marriage?

Correct, weltz. Waiting is the right thing to do according to my belief system.

so you believe in abstinence before marriage but then had premarital sex?

you then taught your children that abstinence until marriage is the right way even though you didn't live up to your own standards?

color me confused?

Correct, Single.

It's like this. I knew right from wrong, but chose to do the wrong. My misbehaving did not prevent me from teaching my children what I considered and still consider absolute truths.. -To abstain from premarital sex.

I am certain, well almost certain, that most of us teach our children to abstain from many other things in life, such as lying, stealing, gossip, some of us pornography, and a host of other moral goods.. I would dare say, since our teaching these moral goods to our children, we've found ourselves guilty of some of those same things we've taught..

Yes or no?

No need to answer. I am just putting this out there for thought. I am a fallible person like everyone else and critically consider myself before pointing out others shortcomings in a proud manner.. Considering my own potential fallibility cause me to approach others who've failed life miserably, accordingly..

By the way.. I am never proud when I've broken my own standards..

[thyme4change]

People hate abstinence ONLY education. I don't know anyone who says you shouldn't add a plug for abstinence in there... As someone mentioned, short class really

LOL - Reminds me of the scene from Mean Girls - Health class: "Don't have sex. Cause you will get pregnant and die. Don't have sex in the missionary position. Don't have sex standing up. Just don't do it. Promise? Okay, everyone take some rubbers."

[The Captain]

Sept 14, 2012 23:31:12 GMT -5 quince said:

I never understood the "Worry about every person your partner has had sex with" idea.

They have tests. For STDs. So you really just have to worry about your partner- being honest about their testing status and abstinent during the incubation periods...

Now if there's a scenario with someone having multiple sex partners in parallel- yeah, worry about more than one person's bedroom habits.

And I'm all for abstinence being taught. Other than homosexual intercourse, oral sex, manual stimulation, and clothed frottage, it's the only 100% way to be sure of not conceiving! It's a really quick class, too.

You can also choose not to have sex.

The end.

Quince - kinda the point - how many teenagers do you think insist on having their partners tested before jumping in the sack?

[Firebird]

I think it's funny when people talk about teens not being responsible with sex. Until you give them the ownership of their bodies and sexuality, they don't have the tools to be responsible. You can't be responsible over what you don't own.

Karma. This is about as well said as anything I've ever read on the subject.