Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2012 17:37:02 GMT -5
Unless you are paying her less than $12k/year, in which case can she consider it a "gift".I thought the gift limit was $10k, but if it's $12k all the better - I doubt we will be paying more than $1k/month. Its great that you have this arrangement. DW and I have NO family nearby. In the event the impossible happens, we'd be "those" HCOLA parents shelling out $1,800/mo for daycare.We're definitely lucky. I can even imagine putting off the move to Washington because this arrangement works too well for everyone to give it up. Do the in-laws have any issues with your Mom getting so much contact? I could see that being an issue based on some of the "crazy family" stories we've gotten here. Eh. DH doesn't have parents so there's no direct grandparent competition. I'm hoping that we can bring Babybird to visit the extended family often, but I don't foresee any drama because my mom gets full time contact. It is 13K now, just fyi.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Sept 10, 2012 17:41:41 GMT -5
I wasn't at all trying to imply you expected it or that she doesn't want to. I hope you didn't take it that way. And I don't think you're wrong to pay her. It's just not something I'm familiar with.Not at all - I get where you're coming from too - your arrangement sounds awesome! I know lots of families where paying family to provide daycare isn't really an issue. Heck, DH's aunt is watching Babyniece quite a bit while she works from what I can tell and I'm positive they've never discussed SIL paying her to do that. It's not their way. But it's mine and it's my parents'. For us, this is the right thing to do. If she were really hurt by the thought of us paying her, I suppose we could live with it... but we'd find some other way to compensate her, at least a little. Pay for a housecleaner or something. She seems okay with the idea of us paying her, we just haven't settled a price yet.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2012 17:42:59 GMT -5
I don't think you're projecting, debthaven - these are all very valid points. Keep em coming! I'll tell you one thing. My sister (retired) is TOTALLY available during the eight months a year that she is in NY. She has never been the primary carer but she is "on call" CONSTANTLY. Sometimes, five days a week, for weeks or even MONTHS on end. When the kiddies were younger, it happened VERY OFTEN. One niece refused to do childcare for her kids (and quit her job, but she refused to even leave the house if my sister wasn't there to "replace" her). My other niece couldn't afford FT daycare it. I saw it firsthand this summer. If you heard her comments to me as she could see the phone ringing at 7am and her "Sure, of course!" to her DDs, you'd think she should win an Oscar LOL. My sister is getting older (she's 65). Running after little kids is getting harder for her, but she NEVER EVER EVER says no. She says, they are my DDs, if they need me, I will NEVER EVER EVER say no to them. Instead, she goes to FL for four months a year to "recoup" (but also because her partner likes it). Just something to keep in mind. Hence, my thinking that 3 days per week is OK. Even 4 days, occasionally. But not too often. BUT, 5 days a week is NOT OK, even if your mom lies and tells you it is. She loves you, she loves Firechick. But, she has a certain degree of independence in her life now, and it is for YOU to respect it, and to be proactive about it. JMO.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Sept 10, 2012 17:45:05 GMT -5
First number that came to mind as a fair compromise in terms of saving Firebird on daycare costs, without paying mom a slave wage.
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on Sept 10, 2012 17:46:29 GMT -5
Gift rate is up to $13k so as a couple they could pay FB's mom $26k and there would be no taxes for either party.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Sept 10, 2012 17:46:40 GMT -5
::Hence, my thinking that 3 days per week is OK. 5 days a week is NOT OK, even if she lies and tells you it is. ::
And definitely not as they get older. My mom watches the nephews a good amount. As babies, easy. As 8 year olds, easy. The 3 year old will run her ragged if she watches him for 2 full days though.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Sept 10, 2012 17:49:33 GMT -5
She is getting older, it is getting harder for her, but she NEVER says no.
That's how it is for DH's aunt too. When we were in Washington for my baby shower, SIL had to work and Babyniece's dad didn't pick her up when he was supposed to, so our aunt had to watch Babyniece during SIL's shift. This was after a very exhausting weekend with lots of guests and I know our aunt was hoping to get a break and some rest.
It's not like SIL had a lot of choice, and Babyniece's dad is being a huge douchebag. But I felt really bad for our aunt and that's the kind of thing I want to avoid with my mom. She's excited about watching our kid - I'd like it to stay that way. I don't want it to become a burden, and fairly compensating her is part of that (or at least not unfairly[/b] compensating her).
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Sept 10, 2012 17:51:17 GMT -5
::She's excited about watching our kid - I'd like it to stay that way. I don't want it to become a burden, and fairly compensating her is part of that. ::
I think compensation is probably a small part of that though. A bigger part is probably the ability to have some free time. Whether you pay her zero or $2,000/month eventually she's going to burn out on watching the kid 5 days a week.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Sept 10, 2012 17:51:22 GMT -5
She loves you, she loves Firechick. But, she has a certain degree of independence in her life now, and it is for you to respect it, and to be proactive about it. JMO.
I totally agree with that. If the arrangement isn't working for her at any point, I certainly hope she feels free to say so. I'd happily pay full market rate for institutional daycare before damaging my relationship with my mom.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Sept 10, 2012 17:54:04 GMT -5
I think compensation is probably a small part of that though. A bigger part is probably the ability to have some free time. Whether you pay her zero or $2,000/month eventually she's going to burn out on watching the kid 5 days a week. This is very true (especially since she doesn't NEED money for this). It's actually a good reminder for me - I'm thinking now of Doxie's parents who don't want to watch her kids any more hours than they have to because they already are burned out watching them every day during the week and value their time off. Totally understandable. The thing is, this situation is really temporary. If all goes well, DH and I are planning to move to Washington next year - certainly before her first birthday. Assuming that happens, I actually have the opposite worry - she won't want us to leave after she's bonded with her grandchild and vice versa We'll have to cross that bridge when we come to it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2012 17:58:43 GMT -5
I think compensation is probably a small part of that though. A bigger part is probably the ability to have some free time. Whether you pay her zero or $2,000/month eventually she's going to burn out on watching the kid 5 days a week.
This! By the way, my sister won't accept one red cent. She is NOT wealthy, but she's comfortable.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2012 17:59:41 GMT -5
If the arrangement isn't working for her at any point, I certainly hope she feels free to say so.
But, she probably won't, just like my sister wouldn't. That's my point! So it's up to YOU to pre-empt her ever feeling that way.
ETA: EVEN if you're planning on leaving. One has nothing to do with the other. Your mom is NOT going to think, oh, they're leaving in a year, so I can do 5 days a week! It just doesn't work that way.
Also, your mom has social contacts at her job. Taking care of a baby can be wonderful, but sometimes one needs adult contact. If she gives up her job, she's giving up the adult contact she gets through work. Since you seem to say she doesn't really need the money, one can only assume that she's working at that job for other reasons, not just her salary.
Please forgive me for saying this, but although I know you're a very smart cookie, I think you're being sort of obtuse here.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Sept 10, 2012 18:25:39 GMT -5
But, she probably won't, just like my sister wouldn't. That's my point! So it's up to YOU to pre-empt her ever feeling that way.
Got it. So the issue then becomes, what if we NEED her to watch Babybird five days a week? Assuming she says she's willing, I don't see any way around it. As others have said, it's going to be nearly impossible to find an alternate DCP for one or two days a week. Although obviously I can spend my maternity leave looking for someone, there's no guarantee I'll actually find someone.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Sept 10, 2012 18:28:19 GMT -5
Please forgive me for saying this, but although I know you're a very smart cookie, I think you're being sort of obtuse here.
Well, you also don't know my mom. There's all sorts of reasons she is choosing to work the p/t job, none of which I feel free to go into on a thread where she can't speak for herself. Suffice it to say that what she's doing is no one's dream job, and she's not doing it for social contacts.
Remember, she wanted to be the baby's nanny - specifically requested this job with no prompting or urging from us - waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay before she got that p/t job. For the last nine months, this is what she's been waiting to do.
If she didn't WANT to do this, I'd never dream of asking her - particularly if she had to give up a job she loved in order to do it. We'd just find a regular DCP.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2012 18:29:52 GMT -5
So the issue then becomes, what if we NEED her to watch Babybird five days a week?
Hope it happens rarely? Set up an informal exchange with a friend who has a baby the same age? Pay an occasional dcp when it goes over 3 days a week? Take a day off (either you or DH).
Also, do your parents never go on vacation?!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2012 18:30:50 GMT -5
Well, you also don't know my mom. There's all sorts of reasons she is choosing to work the p/t job, none of which I feel free to go into on a thread where she can't speak for herself. Suffice it to say that what she's doing is no one's dream job, and she's not doing it for social contacts.
Remember, she wanted to be the baby's nanny - specifically requested this job with no prompting or urging from us - waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay before she got that p/t job. For the last nine months, this is what she's been waiting to do.
OK, Firebird, no problem. I'll shut up now.
I wish you and Firechick and your mom the best!
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Sept 10, 2012 18:32:54 GMT -5
Hope it happens rarely? Set up an informal exchange with a friend who has a baby the same age? Pay an occasional dcp when it goes over 3 days a week?
All good options. I actually have someone in mind as a backup who might want the job a couple days a week. We can talk about how they want to deal with that one.
Also, do your parents never go on vacation?
Sure, a couple times a year. DH or I will be glad to take time off when they want to go on vacation, as long as they give us enough notice.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Sept 10, 2012 18:34:53 GMT -5
OK, Firebird, no problem. I'll shut up now.
I'm not trying to shut you down - I think you're making good points, and I started this thread precisely because I'm sure I haven't thought of this from all angles. I'm just explaining that this isn't a matter of my mom being manipulated away from a great p/t job that is totally enriching her life because she feels like she has no choice.
I want to make it very clear that this is something she says she wants to do. We are really close, and I do think she'd feel free to tell me if it wasn't working for her anymore.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2012 18:35:47 GMT -5
I actually have someone in mind as a backup who might want the job a couple days a week.I think having a backup is a great idea! I'm sure your mom does really want to do this! But, she may not want to do it 4 or 5 days a week. EVEN IF SHE SAYS, NO PROBLEM! That's all I'm trying to say. And now, I will really back off.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2012 18:40:24 GMT -5
Someone with more tax experience and child care experience than I have can correct me if I am wrong. But if your mom doesn't claim this on her taxes and you both don't pay the SS tax, won't she get years of zeroes added in to her SS earnings so that she will be lowering her eventual SS check?
Also, don't you lose the ability to claim the child care credit if she doesn't claim it? That won't matter as much if she gives you a "deal" (which it sounds like she would). But you might want to factor both of these in.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Sept 10, 2012 18:44:30 GMT -5
I'm sure your mom does really want to do this! But, she may not want to do it 4 or 5 days a week. EVEN IF SHE SAYS, NO PROBLEM!
I understand. And I know different families have different communication styles. But in the context of our specific relationship, there has to be a point where I trust what my mom tells me. I NEED HER to be able to say "I'm not okay with five days a week" if she's not okay with five days a week. This is not the sort of thing I'm going to be able to figure out with mind reading powers - I'm no good at that sort of game, and she knows that about me, and it seems silly to just overtly assume she's not okay with something that she says she's okay with, you know?
Frankly, if she can't tell me the truth about something this basic upfront before anyone is committed to anything, I don't see this arrangement working out anyway. I do NOT do well with passive-aggressive "sometimes yes really means no" stuff, and again, this is a very well-known part of the Firebird Personality Kit. My parents, of all people, know this about me.
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kgb18
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Post by kgb18 on Sept 10, 2012 18:55:41 GMT -5
I worry about this a bit with my MIL. Every so often I try to do a check-in and make sure she's really okay with it. And I let her know if, at any time, it's too much to let us know and we'll make other arrangements. I would feel awful if helping us with childcare became a burden on her.
DH and I had a talk with her this summer. We found out, through DH's sister, that my MIL was uncomfortable with something childcare related. It turned out MIL misunderstood what we had told her about a change to things this fall, but I'm glad she did, because it gave us an opportunity to let her know she needs to tell us if she's unhappy with or worried about something. And that she needs to tell US and not SIL or someone else.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Sept 10, 2012 19:02:11 GMT -5
I worry about this a bit with my MIL. Every so often I try to do a check-in and make sure she's really okay with it. And I let her know if, at any time, it's too much to let us know and we'll make other arrangements. I would feel awful if helping us with childcare became a burden on her.I think it's nice that you're checking in, kgb I'd hope she'd appreciate what you're trying to do (making sure she doesn't feel overburdened) and not feel insulted. We do plan to have regular "family meetings" where we can all (hopefully) speak frankly about how things are going. I understand this is unusual (maybe this is my obtuseness showing again but my parents really are great people and we really do get along quite well. We even did the family loan thing that you should NEVER EVER DO, and it's been working out fine by all accounts.
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taz157
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Post by taz157 on Sept 10, 2012 19:32:37 GMT -5
FB, I've only gotten to read this thread with everybody's posts tonight and didn't see it earlier today. I'll share my experience with my neighbor who lives across the street from us and her watching our DD. When we were looking for childcare before DD arrived, I asked my neighbor who knew, if anyone, who did daycare at home (all the DCP in the areas were full and would be when I went back to work). With her own 5 kids, she seems to know everyone! She didn't know of anyway but recommended herself as she's a SAHM. DH and I talked it over and decided that we would use her. She had gotten an offer at her kid's school for a position and asked us if we were sure before she turned down the job. We discuss payment arrangements then as it would be 5 days a week with 9 hours a day except Friday during non-busy season for me when it was 5. During busy season, it would be at least 9. We came at her with a number ($250/wk), then she did. Let's just say her's was higher as according to her research, it was market value ($10/hr). Our number came from my talks with various centers. We agreed with her number. Once I started working in busy season, she wouldn't take more than $400/wk even though DD stayed there longer. Fast forward a few months, DH and I decide that we can't continue to have DD there as our finances wouldn't allow it so I started to research other DCP. I found 2 that I like, 1 I really like and 1 I like. The one I really like, DD could start at 18 months (Feb '13) as DD has to walking well before she can start (they don't want her to get run over) and could potentially start earlier depending on her walking. The one I like she could start earlier if they have room. DH requested that I make sure she could start earlier (just in case) before I talk to my neighbor in case something happens. As it turns out, it was a good think I listened to DH. I told our neighbor on a Wednesday and she told me the next morning that today was her last day. Evidently, I should have "worked with her more" and given her notice. FWIW, I gave her 9 weeks notice as DH and I agreed that we would make it work until the year time frame that DH and I agreed to was up. Needless to say, on Friday I took her to work with me since she couldn't start the DCP until she turned 1 (about 1.5 week later). However, I did call the new DCP and changed my start date from Oct 1 to Aug 6 without any issues and had made sure when I filled in the paperwork a couple of weeks beforehand. The week in between the old DCP and the new DCP, I had already taken vacation time for as old DCP was going on vacation then. FWIW, we thought providing 9 weeks notice was more than ample, and we had told her more than once to let us know if something else comes along. Supposely, she had turned down other job offers while watching our DD that we never knew about. DH and I would have understand and looked else where. God knows our checkbook would have liked it. The point of all my rambling is to make sure your mom is okay with everything, keep the levels of communication open, and enjoy it while it lasts. My DB and SIL have her mother watching their DD during the day while both are working; however, I have no idea if she is being paid or not. Good luck and enjoy Babybird/Babyfire/Babychick when she's born. It goes by fast!
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justme
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Post by justme on Sept 10, 2012 19:35:40 GMT -5
Gift rate is up to $13k so as a couple they could pay FB's mom $26k and there would be no taxes for either party. And then couldn't they gift FB's dad $26k too (assuming they're still married)? Not saying $52k for watching the kid, but that they wouldn't have a problem.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Sept 10, 2012 19:51:09 GMT -5
I haven't seen this much, but you may want to discuss how much you want your mom to drive your baby around and the sorts of activities you want LO to do. We are big fans of story hour at the library, going to zoos, and children's museums. You may want to eventually get family memberships to a few places so your mom doesn't have to pay admission fees for these things.
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on Sept 10, 2012 20:25:30 GMT -5
Someone with more tax experience and child care experience than I have can correct me if I am wrong. But if your mom doesn't claim this on her taxes and you both don't pay the SS tax, won't she get years of zeroes added in to her SS earnings so that she will be lowering her eventual SS check? Also, don't you lose the ability to claim the child care credit if she doesn't claim it? That won't matter as much if she gives you a "deal" (which it sounds like she would). But you might want to factor both of these in. These are both true. Firebird, I'm glad you are going to pay your mother and provide the equipment. My DN doesn't pay me anything and I had to buy two car seats. She is okay with what I do with the kids, but her husband yells at me if the living room is full of toys when he gets home or the youngest is sleeping. That makes me mad and I did quit over his treatment of me at one time.
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kgb18
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Post by kgb18 on Sept 10, 2012 20:58:07 GMT -5
That is so wrong. He should be grateful that you are helping them and shut up. Good lord, what house with children doesn't have toys in the living room? As hard as I try, there are toys all over the place at my house.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Sept 10, 2012 21:33:37 GMT -5
Firebird--Our situation is a bit different, but we do child care with family so something might be helpful for you. My parents watch ds 1 full day a week for free. They also do all kinds of extra help and babysitting 'for fun'. The biggest thing that I try to do is thank them for the specific things they do for us, and every time we ask for anything 'extra' I preface it with--"only if this works for you--it is OK to say no". I've had conversations with my dad that begin with, "are you able to say no if I ask you for something?" And they do occasionally say no. I also remind them not to put anything they want to do on hold for us. That as much as we love and appreciate their help, we would manage without it. Also, my in-laws watch ds 2 days a month. We love them, and are also very appreciative of their help, but... well I should just leave it at that. This is where we've realized that you need to have very specific conversations about your expectations when someone else (especially family) is watching your child. Do your parents have guns in the house? What kind of child proofing are they willing to do? How much discretion do you trust them to use before calling you (dispensing medicine, discipline techniques)? Are you okay with mom taking her to church playgroups? Etc.
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Sept 10, 2012 22:11:13 GMT -5
If SIL were dropping them off and GMIL had to provide those things, she'd be justified in charging a lot more. This is true ... on the other hand, it may be that Firebird's mom is happier to watch Babybird in Mom's own home so she can be at home. She has a part time minimum wage job which she may or may not keep after the new year, she definitely wants this to be her priority.Do you know how much she earns from that? How many hours a week does she work? I'd try to at least match that, since that is the amount of money she decided to work for. Plus, I'm sure you will be getting a HUGE amount of "extras" from her already. Frankly, I'd offer to pay her market rate. I don't know how it works there but it's hard to find a dcp who is willing to take a child only 3 days a week. So you're already saving money there. Plus she won't be charging you overtime for dinners out, late meetings, etc etc etc. My MIL quit her job to babysit for my son. We pretty much paid market rate for in home care. We provided clothes, formula, diapers etc. She fed DH and I and our kids. She would buy diapers and clothes for the kids and she started to wash the dirty clothes and keep a supply of clothes at her house. Babysitting requires them to plan their lives around yours. Dr appts need to be coordinated with you or a backup babysitter. Vacations also require a backup. We had my Mom as backup. Sis also had her MIl as primary and Mom as backup and used my MIL a few times too. I always felt that paying MIL well sent the message that we really valued what she was doing. My kids are 19 and 15 and MIL talks as though they were well behaved angels in her care. I don't think they were, I think the fact that she was paid made an occasional temper tantrum or naughty act bearable. Sent from my MB855 using proboards
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