Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Sept 10, 2012 8:48:35 GMT -5
Or busy working 2 jobs...
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Sept 10, 2012 8:48:54 GMT -5
so if you make a mistake when you're 17, you should just flush the rest of your life down the toilet? Apparently, even with the substantial support systems in place, many choose to do so: Quote: "It’s these expressions that set pregnant teens and teen moms up for failure, as well as teen dads. And the statistics help support the claims: •40% of teen moms graduate high school •2% graduate from college before age 30 •80% of dads don’t stick around" The above from this site: teenmomsdaretodream.org/So yes, it sounds like if you get pregnant at 17 you've pretty much decided to flush you life down the toilet. Your life, your choice. Don't ask me to subsidize you on a long shot for success. Edited to add quotation marks. But what about those who do finish HS and want to make something of themselves? I want to help them do it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2012 8:48:58 GMT -5
You know that actually requires more daycare, right? I don't know a lot about parenting, but I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to leave your kids home alone when you go to either of your jobs. If so many people weren't alienating the older relatives in their lives, they'd have the free daycare they need. I know couples who work opposite shifts, so that one or the other can watch their kids. What older relatives? I don't have kids, but I am of childbearing age. Both of my parents work full time jobs and all of my grandparents are dead.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Sept 10, 2012 8:49:02 GMT -5
If so many people weren't alienating the older relatives in their lives, they'd have the free daycare they need
Let's see here. DH's grandparents are dead. I only have one set living 2 hours away. My parents are still young enough that they work for a living. His parents are in their late 70's and have a whole host of medical problems that keep them from watching my kid for more than a couple hours for us to go to the store.
I have no aunts or uncles. DH's are all elderly, dropping like flies or have their own grandkids they need to take care of.
My brother is only 21 and no way am I going to let him full time babysit. DH's brother and sister both still work and have their own kids.
So please tell me exactly how I am "alienating" all relatives?
Where do you people live where you have endless numbers of elderly relatives who are not only physically capable of watching a child seven days a week but also WANT to?
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Sept 10, 2012 8:50:35 GMT -5
So yes, it sounds like if you get pregnant at 17 you've pretty much decided to flush you life down the toilet. Your life, your choice. Don't ask me to subsidize you on a long shot for success.Right, thats the only option left to them So aborting the baby = Bad Keeping the baby = Bad Trying to rectify your mistake = Bad The only option is abstinence. I was no where near ready to raise a kid, financially and emotionally, until my 30's. If I waited to have sex until my 30's, no guy would want me. Who would want a cranky mid 30's virgin?
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Sept 10, 2012 8:55:04 GMT -5
I don't know, this is a tough one.
On one hand, it sounds good. It frees up the parent to go to school to get a better job and get off assistance, which (should) be the main goal of assistance. Assuming of course, the daycare is for parents in school or working. And after all, as much as it's nice to teach personal responsibility, it's not like you can give a kid back after they're born.
On the other, the more you insulate people from the cost of poor decisions the more bad decision you encourage. After all, why should you be responsible and wait to have kids when you can afford them when you can have a baby at 18 and get free college and daycare, courtesy of the taxpayers.
So, I don't know. I guess I can support some middle ground. I think being a single parent should be a struggle, and resources should only be spent on those who prove they're worth the "investment."
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Sept 10, 2012 8:55:26 GMT -5
It would cause me to wonder who would be willing to raise my kids if, God forbid, anything should happen to me.
That's different, IMO, than showing up on someone's doorstep and asking them to provide you free daycare because after all they are "family" and that's what they should do for you.
I have no doubts that any family would take Gwen in if something happened to us.
They are not however willing to completely rearrange their lives to be my free daycare.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Sept 10, 2012 8:57:14 GMT -5
You could very well be right, and that's sad. It would cause me to wonder who would be willing to raise my kids if, God forbid, anything should happen to me. I often wonder about that, but it's not because I've alienated everyone. My parents are in their 70's and not well enough to handle little kids. My in laws are in their 60's and FIL is an idiot. MIL is fine, but she's also getting older and would have a hard time dealing with teens in her 70's. She also spoils them. My DH's brothers are idiots. One is a registered sex offender. My brother has 3 kids close in age to my kids, so it would give him 5 kids spaced 2.5 years apart. My sister lives 1500 miles away from family, but she's the most appropriate caregiver. So my kids end up being uprooted from close family they see regularly to go live with an aunt they see once a year. It's not all about the alienation. It's just how life works.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Sept 10, 2012 8:57:56 GMT -5
I can name 4 right now in our family who would be able and willing to babysit a relative's child....I'm one of them. Maybe it's a country living type of thing? I live in the country. See my above post. It's a family thing and it doesn't matter where you live. Some families can do it, others can't. I have at least a dozen cousins who live nearby. There are about 6 of them I talk to regularly. I'm not about to ask them to rearrange their lives to take care of my kids.
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swasat
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Post by swasat on Sept 10, 2012 8:58:26 GMT -5
I can name 4 right now in our family who would be able and willing to babysit a relative's child....I'm one of them. Maybe it's a country living type of thing? Maybe it is. My parents don't live in the same state. DH's parents do but a different city. We have cousins and aunts here but they either work or have otherwise full lives. I would not burden them with my kids care.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Sept 10, 2012 8:59:21 GMT -5
Apparently swasat, swamp and myself have really unloving, uncaring families since we can't think of anyone who is chomping at the bit to provide us with free daycare.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Sept 10, 2012 9:00:44 GMT -5
It would cause me to wonder who would be willing to raise my kids if, God forbid, anything should happen to me. That's different, IMO, than showing up on someone's doorstep and asking them to provide you free daycare because after all they are "family" and that's what they should do for you. Sometimes it isn't free, but a lot cheaper and safer than what a daycare would charge. Sometimes it's in trade for allowing a relative to live with you. Many times it's a win-win situation for all concerned. It doesn't always have to involve money. It would be safer to leave my kids with pedophile BIL?
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Sept 10, 2012 9:02:34 GMT -5
OK, so many of you are talking about a poor 17 yr old who made a mistake. Fine, free daycare for the innocent. How about daycare for the same 17 yr old who made another mistake at 19 and than at 20/21? You all still feel the same way? How about a 25yr old? Should she have known better? 30yr old?? Do we do free daycare for women of a certain age only? With only one child? How many mistakes are we willing to forgive and subsidize?
Lena
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Sept 10, 2012 9:02:58 GMT -5
Many times it's a win-win situation for all concerned. It doesn't always have to involve money.
Having to worry about my MIL falling trying to chase a toddler or having to subsidize my parents in retirement because they had to quit their jobs to watch my kid is not my idea of a "win win".
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swasat
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Post by swasat on Sept 10, 2012 9:03:39 GMT -5
It would cause me to wonder who would be willing to raise my kids if, God forbid, anything should happen to me. That's different, IMO, than showing up on someone's doorstep and asking them to provide you free daycare because after all they are "family" and that's what they should do for you. Sometimes it isn't free, but a lot cheaper and safer than what a daycare would charge. Sometimes it's in trade for allowing a relative to live with you. Many times it's a win-win situation for all concerned. It doesn't always have to involve money. You just seem to have a very one sided view of child care. I'd rather not be indebted to any family member for child care. Even if my parents were in the same town I would not ask them to dcp. My mom (who passed away 2 months ago) was still a working woman. Dad is in a job and heavily into volunteering. I don't expect them to kill their lives for me. They wpuld help me in a heartbeat. But "help" is all that I expect. Full time child care is not something I would want to burden 60+ people with. And FWIW we have always been a very close knit family. Some elder people actually want to watch grand kids. More power to them. Not everyone wants to limit their old age to grand kids though.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Sept 10, 2012 9:03:56 GMT -5
I guess I could get behind it with certain restrictions. For example, the individual must be enrolled in school or job training programs, has to be clean of drugs, and has to have at least a part time job and pay something towards daycare. In other words, it's not just a gift with no strings attached.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2012 9:05:16 GMT -5
My sister lives 1500 miles away from family, but she's the most appropriate caregiver. So my kids end up being uprooted from close family they see regularly to go live with an aunt they see once a year. I am this aunt for my sister's kid. If it came to it, I would move home. Your sister might too.
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swasat
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Post by swasat on Sept 10, 2012 9:06:18 GMT -5
I guess I could get behind it with certain restrictions. For example, the individual must be enrolled in school or job training programs, has to be clean of drugs, and has to have at least a part time job and pay something towards daycare. In other words, it's not just a gift with no strings attached. Those are the set of rules I would VERY happily play by. But a subsidized daycare is just that. Subsidized. Its not "free". The parents have to pay certain amount still.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Sept 10, 2012 9:06:59 GMT -5
Have a child who needs care who is under the age of 13 (or under the age of 19 if the child has special needs) and have income under the program's limits and work an average of 28 hours per week; or Attend an approvable training or education program full-time; or Are looking for work; or Are unable to provide care because of an approved medical reason.
I know this will be picked apart and a ton of personal acedotes from people living in other states will "prove" me wrong but these are the requirements for being able to get subsidies in Iowa.
Hardly looks like they are people sitting on their butts doing nothing but driving their escalades to purchase crab legs with their food stamps.
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swasat
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Post by swasat on Sept 10, 2012 9:12:13 GMT -5
Apparently swasat, swamp and myself have really unloving, uncaring families since we can't think of anyone who is chomping at the bit to provide us with free daycare. That's okay...You'll survive. Good to know. I was beginning to get worried my kids will either end up on the streets or become the welfare moochers since they were not watched by their grandparents.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Sept 10, 2012 9:16:19 GMT -5
My sister lives 1500 miles away from family, but she's the most appropriate caregiver. So my kids end up being uprooted from close family they see regularly to go live with an aunt they see once a year. I am this aunt for my sister's kid. If it came to it, I would move home. Your sister might too. No, she wouldn't. She and her husband are both doctors with thriving practices in FL. He does pacemaker installation, which he can't do at a local hospital. My sister also owns a medi-spa and has extensive rental properties. They will NEVER move back to her hometown.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2012 9:17:01 GMT -5
I guess I could get behind it with certain restrictions. For example, the individual must be enrolled in school or job training programs, has to be clean of drugs, and has to have at least a part time job and pay something towards daycare. In other words, it's not just a gift with no strings attached. At least the one here in NY, you must be working or in school, any day off they will not pay for (even if you are sick), though the daycare still charges you. It is your wage minus 100% of the poverty level (based on family size), times 35%. If you make less than 100% of the poverty level you pay $1/week. On top of that, the university or community colleges have their own subsidy at a high income level.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2012 9:19:28 GMT -5
No. This is not the case. All employees start out making MW. Those who are worth their salt get the raises and promotions. However, only a few have been willing to go the distance. This is what I'm getting at...even when the opportunities are there, many choose not to take them. Honestly, even in college I made more than minimum wage starting out. The last time my starting wage was MW was in high school. Your candidates are poor because of your starting wage. If even a college student would not apply to you, why would you expect a full time worker to?
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Sept 10, 2012 9:22:52 GMT -5
I believe we've had some posters discuss the problems associated with "free" daycare.
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Sept 10, 2012 9:23:46 GMT -5
I think subsidizing childcare is welfare, but I don't think that's a bad thing. I would much rather we moved to the European model, with low-cost daycare for all. And I believed that BEFORE I had a kid too.
What it comes down to is that I believe there is value to us, as a society, in having children. Next generation of workers, etc. While on a global level, depopulation is obviously not much of a concern, for America a dropping birth rate could spell real trouble economically over the next 50 years. Apparently our birth rate is currently the lowest in 25 years, and not enough to keep the population stable.
Unfortunately population tends to be one of those "sticky" factors that is fairly resistant to change (it's unlikely that everyone is all of a sudden going to start welcoming large numbers of immigrants in order to increase the population enough to stop us from getting top-heavy. See Europe for this as well.)
I think there should be policies that make having kids easier on the individual for the good of the group. I know that makes me an outlier here, but so be it. If those of you who are against daycare subsidies, maternity benefits, etc. cannot see the benefit to you I am never going to be able to make you see it. I think you are willfully and selfishly blinding yourself to it, but whatever.
Finally, if you can access good, quality, cost-effective daycare, you can give every kid the opportunity to learn from an early age - meaning there is less of a gap when it comes to things like reading, counting, etc. when kids start school. Which potentially leads to less trouble down the road.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Sept 10, 2012 9:26:09 GMT -5
Apparently, even with the substantial support systems in place, many choose to do so: Quote: "It’s these expressions that set pregnant teens and teen moms up for failure, as well as teen dads. And the statistics help support the claims: •40% of teen moms graduate high school •2% graduate from college before age 30 •80% of dads don’t stick around" The above from this site: teenmomsdaretodream.org/So yes, it sounds like if you get pregnant at 17 you've pretty much decided to flush you life down the toilet. Your life, your choice. Don't ask me to subsidize you on a long shot for success. Edited to add quotation marks. But what about those who do finish HS and want to make something of themselves? I want to help them do it. Ok, take a five round chamber gun. Put in three bullets, spin the chamber and point it at your head. Are you willing to pull the trigger? If your answer is not yes, then why are you asking me to do so?
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Sept 10, 2012 9:27:37 GMT -5
Our constitution guarantees equal access and opportunity to education. It does not guarantee that we offer unlimited opportunities even after you've proven poor judgement.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Sept 10, 2012 9:29:06 GMT -5
But what about those who do finish HS and want to make something of themselves? I want to help them do it. Ok, take a five round chamber gun. Put in three bullets, spin the chamber and point it at your head. Are you willing to pull the trigger? If your answer is not yes, then why are you asking me to do so? You're equating suicidal russian roulette with subsizing daycare? Holy drama rama.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2012 9:29:27 GMT -5
But what about those who do finish HS and want to make something of themselves? I want to help them do it. Ok, take a five round chamber gun. Put in three bullets, spin the chamber and point it at your head. Are you willing to pull the trigger? If your answer is not yes, then why are you asking me to do so? Only 40% of children graduate high school if they have a child? What about college students who have a child? Or a divorced or widowed parent who have a kid? Are they all at 40%?
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swasat
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Post by swasat on Sept 10, 2012 9:48:21 GMT -5
Our constitution guarantees equal access and opportunity to education. It does not guarantee that we offer unlimited opportunities even after you've proven poor judgement. How is it unlimited? We are talking about subsidizing daycare while the parent goes to school or works a job or learns a trade. Who here said that dayacre should be subsidized for the ENTIRE life of the person receiving it? Like DramaQ's state, my state also provides subsidized daycare if you are enrolled or working towards something. One can't just barge in and ask for it.
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