for those of you that swear...

[NastyWoman]

that you won't help your spendthrift parents when they are old: how sure are you that you will be ableto pull this off?

money.msn.com/retirement-plan/will-you-get-dads-nursing-home-bill-weston.aspx

[midjd]

Ugh, I'm in a 'filial responsibility' state. Awesome.

If I was on the hook for my mom's care, I'd be upset, but I'd pay it. She clothed and housed and fed me for 18 years, it's only fair.

If they try to send me the bill for my dad, I'm leaving the country.

[Hypersion]

I'm guessing that in the court case mentioned in the article that the parents moved large assets to the child before moving into the nursing home.

[whoisjohngalt]

If they try to send me the bill for my dad, I'm leaving the country. [image]

Country??? If there is a chance in hell that we could be responsible for my IL's - I am leaving the whole planet!!!!!

I just finished reading So Much For That - it kinda sorta touches on this subject, very interesting book

Lena

[moxie]

"Nursing homes are typically using it when there is a gap between private payment and eligibility for Medicaid."

Yep. If you still have assets, they want the money due them.

[Phoenix84]

"If I was on the hook for my mom's care, I'd be upset, but I'd pay it. She clothed and housed and fed me for 18 years, it's only fair."

Yeah, but did she have to pay 93k or more to do it? A nursing home stay can easily go well into the hundreds of thousands.

[moxie]

$7,000+/mo here

[zibazinski]

Florida isn't one yet but since I'm an orphan, no worries.

[formerroomate99]

Well, the folks on my side are well taken care of, and my inlaws aren't in one of those states (and I don't plan to change that).
I was thinking of helping them come to our state if we moved, but since it is one of those states, I'm not about to go there.

[Deleted]

Parents have a fiduciary responsibility to their children, until they are adults. Parents have financial responsibilities toward their children but should NOT have this toward their parents. It is WRONG for any parent to bankrupt their own children and ruin the future of their grandchildren. I have no control over how my parents lived, the careers they choose, how they choose to manage their resources, to then put the children on the hook for their parents is absolutely absurd and wrong. But, in terms of creating more govt dependency, if the govt can pass these types of the laws, they will manage to bankrupt everyone and will have total control. It is a frightening development if it goes down that road. And, yes, children have a moral responsibility to help parents to an extent but should not have a legal compunction. Parents primary responsibility is to protect their assets for the sake of their children. If we allow these kinds of laws to develop, then they will bankrupt everyone and the money you saved and invested for your children's college and retirement will be wiped out. That is simply wrong.

[bean29]

"What we've seen is that family members who can support each other, do support each other," Pearson said, "unless there's a strong personal reason why you don't."

When there has been enforcement in the recent past, it typically was because an adult child had defrauded the parent or was otherwise at fault in creating the parent's poverty.

That wasn't the case with Pittas, and elder-law attorneys are concerned that the court's ruling could encourage

other nursing homes to sue family members for unpaid bills

Just wanted to point out for those of you that assume this guy took his mother's nest egg - that the article specifically says that was not the case.

I fully expect to help out my in-laws in their retirement years. I certainly am not planning to do anything close to $93,000 though.

[Deleted]

How can I be held responsible for my parents' financial planning during their lives? That is just patently absurd.

[DVM gone riding]

the article did say for MOST of these states the law was written in colonial times, when there was no retirement/security, the idea then was that working signs couldn't kick their elder parents to the gutter--then the law made sense. Now it doesn't if they could make you let your parents live with you and feed/cloth them but nothing more that might be one thing but to make children try to pay for nursing homes that is crazy!

[Phoenix84]

Jul 20, 2012 8:02:21 GMT -5 @shooby said:

Parents have a fiduciary responsibility to their children, until they are adults. Parents have financial responsibilities toward their children but should NOT have this toward their parents. It is WRONG for any parent to bankrupt their own children and ruin the future of their grandchildren. I have no control over how my parents lived, the careers they choose, how they choose to manage their resources, to then put the children on the hook for their parents is absolutely absurd and wrong. But, in terms of creating more govt dependency, if the govt can pass these types of the laws, they will manage to bankrupt everyone and will have total control. It is a frightening development if it goes down that road. And, yes, children have a moral responsibility to help parents to an extent but should not have a legal compunction. Parents primary responsibility is to protect their assets for the sake of their children. If we allow these kinds of laws to develop, then they will bankrupt everyone and the money you saved and invested for your children's college and retirement will be wiped out. That is simply wrong.

If you read the article, it's not as bad as you think. These aren't new laws being passed, in fact it's quite the opposite. These are very old laws on the books from the old days when they had the old victorian "poor laws." Many states have repealed them and others don't enforce them.

[Deleted]

All it takes is one legal precedent to open up the flood gates. I had no control over how my parents managed their assets. So, if i don't have the control, then how can i have the responsibility?

[raeoflyte]

Lena--we'll be joining you off planet if we have to support my in-laws.

[Deleted]

Yeah, I'd have a problem with this. And both my father and I will be living in CA, one of the mentioned states. I think he's on medicaid already so perhaps it won't be an issue.

My parents made some really poor financial choices and subsidized their lifestyle by using their home as an ATM. They laughed at me when I expressed my concern.

I help out my dad (my mom passed in 2008) but I don't think I should be responsible for his poor financial planning.

[milee]

... : : : Just wanted to point out for those of you that assume this guy took his mother's nest egg - that the article specifically says that was not the case. : : : ...

I'm not sure I'd agree with that interpretation. Just to rehash the quote so we're talking about the same thing, "When there has been enforcement in the recent past, it typically was because an adult child had defrauded the parent or was otherwise at fault in creating the parent's poverty. That wasn't the case with Pittas..."

He may not have committed fraud or been at fault causing the poverty, but that doesn't say that the parents didn't do some shady moves to pass money or assets to him in order to circumvent the system. For example, maybe the parents' only asset was a house and they deeded it to Pittas prior to claiming indigence. That wouldn't be described as fraud or Pittas being at fault in causing the poverty, but he was still the beneficiary of their assets, so would be the logical one to go after.

I'm on the side of those who are guessing that there is more to this story than what was reported and there was a reason to go after this particular son. But, as Lena says, I could be wrong and have been before...

[Gardening Grandma]

The WSJ gives more information about this specific case...

online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303506404577446410116857508.html?mod=WSJ__MIDDLENexttoWhatsNewsForth

Personally, I have no problem with nursing homes using the statute to get family members to produce the documentation necessary for the patient to receive Medicaid. That's the least a family member could do.

And while this particular person may not have taken funds from his parents, there are plenty of cases where that is exactly what happened - elderly people have either gifted assets or, if senile, had their children have them sign over assets, thus impoverishing themselves - those children should be on the hook for at least part of their parents care.

[Deleted]

I can't necessarily produce all the documentation. There are gaps missing in my mom's stuff. My dad was a vet and i dont' know where his discharge papers are and stuff like that. If someone is attempting to take their parents assets and hide them illegally, then yes, they should be held liable. Or, if someone goes into a home, maybe the state then needs to take over as POA.

[Deleted]

And, i don't necessarily have any control over my mom in assisted living. She is a DNR. Yet if she has some medical conditions, they think nothing of sending her to the ER. She was sent over a couple weeks ago and they were going to transfer her to a major medical center. I am POA and i had to kick up a fuss and tell them No, and to just make her comfortable and send her back to the home. That is what they did and she is now fine but i don't have complete control over what happens to her. Now, they have a round of doctors visiting and so forth and didn't involve me in any of that, so why should i then be responsible for her bills?

[happyhoix]

I agree that we don't know the specifics in this case. It could be that there is property or a family business involved, or it might be that they are claiming a disabled child has the money but the nursing home suspects that isn't the case - I understand where a family would want to protect their assets but at the same time if a person has aquired wealth through their lifetime that should be spent for their support in their old age - the taxpayer shouldn't have to foot the bill so families can inherit their parent's wealth.

[whoisjohngalt]

Lena--we'llbe joining you off planet if we have to support my in-laws.

I would love your company

[Deleted]

I agree that the home should put a lock on someone's assets but when they run out, they run out. Of course people should not be able to hide the parent's assets. They will no doubt absorb every dime of money my mom has in a few years.

[pepper112765]

Well, there are some "parents" in nursing homes, etc., that don't necessarily "need" to be there, but are because their children do not want to take care of them. And, as far as the article, is this guy an only child or does he have siblings, and if so, are ALL siblings responsible to pay. I see that I am in one of the filial responsbility states (Maryland). I also have 5 siblings, and would have to wonder how that would work, not that she would ever go into a nursing home ... I am not letting that happen. I've seen how some are cared for there, my aunt one of them, and I would never do that to my mother.

[milee]

Thanks for the link, GG. Sounds like this suit was a tactic on the part of the NH and state to get the son to help complete all the necessary information so that the parent receiving the care (who was probably not able to speak or help with this task) could be processed, qualified and deemed Medicaid eligible. It also was probably in response to (or attempting to head off) Pittas' lawsuit against the NH for substandard care.

The article doesn't address to what extent, if any, Pittas received his parents' income. If he was administering their affairs as the article says, he may have had access to their SS and any other insurance proceeds, etc. Or not, who knows?

In addition, there is a twist to the case - the parent who was the subject of the NH care was injured when she was in a bad traffic accident clearly caused by the other driver. Usually in cases like that, there are ongoing lawsuits for years against the at fault driver and any insurance. My guess is that the NH wanted to get their claim against Pittas solidified so that if he gets a multimillion $ settlement or judgment, he will at least have to pay the bill for the NH out of that settlement. Hospitals are also starting to do this with people who get emergency treatment and have no insurance - if it looks like they might get a settlement or judgment, they'll go ahead and spend the money to sue the person for the cost of care so that they will get paid if the patient/accident victim gets paid.

[raeoflyte]

Pepper--I'm sorry you had a bad experience with your aunt in a nursing home. I'm on the other side. I've seen what good care is for my grandparents at assisted living and nursing home levels, and will encourage my kids to send me there when it is time. My parents have told me the same thing, and to not wait as long as they did with my grandparents (although they hope to be able to put themselves 'in the home').

[tloonya]

Jul 20, 2012 5:25:17 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

If they try to send me the bill for my dad, I'm leaving the country. [image]

Country??? If there is a chance in hell that we could be responsible for my IL's - I am leaving the whole planet!!!!!

I just finished reading So Much For That - it kinda sorta touches on this subject, very interesting book

Lena

Yes Lena! How would you exactly achieve that? Jump off and hope to fall off the Earth into the athmosphere?

[cronewitch]

This would cause lots of people to disown parents. Many of us are old when our parents are in a nursing home. Mom was 78 when her mom went to assisted living, 80 when she died, her sister was 78 taking care of a disabled husband. Grandma had enough to pay her own way but they shouldn't have come for the daughters assets. Mom has enough money to pay for about 12 years and she is 85 now. She had kids when she was 20,21&22 so we would be in our late 70s when she needed more care than we could give. If we didn't give them information how would they find the kids to make us pay?

My dad never saw his brother because the state could make him pay to keep him in the institution and dad had a wife and kids to support so couldn't take the chance. How many would never visit parents if it made them targets?

How would they find our assets? We grew up when kids didn't have SS numbers so our parents never had our numbers. If we moved with no forwarding address they wouldn't find us especially if we had common names.

[Angel!]

Jul 20, 2012 10:38:25 GMT -5 pepper112765 said:

I also have 5 siblings, and would have to wonder how that would work, not that she would ever go into a nursing home ... I am not letting that happen. I've seen how some are cared for there, my aunt one of them, and I would never do that to my mother.

There are good nursing homes & I've seen how hard it is on my Mother trying to care for my Grandmother without putting her in a home.

I'm telling my kids to just put me in a home.