Don Perignon
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Post by Don Perignon on Jul 12, 2012 22:42:02 GMT -5
You post is what it is. You post under the the monicker of "Value Buy"... which is what it is. As a member of the "Baby boomer" generation I have the right to contest your characterization, which I found to be quite deprecating and insulting. I know many "baby boomers" who have been quite unlike the description you made of them; altruistic, idealistic, intellectual and complex individuals, who could hardly care less about appearances and "keeping up withthe Joneses ". Your characterization of "all baby boomers" does them, and me, an injustice. It is what it is. If you consider my refutation of your contention insulting, you may consider accounts squared.
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Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger
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Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Jul 13, 2012 0:01:37 GMT -5
It's true DJ, there were a lot less for choices back then as well. IDK Value, to pin the entire problem on the boomers, JMO, is a little excessive. Hindsight is 20/20, and a lot of it came from your parents wanting you give you guys a better life. I look around and aside from families that live in extreme poverty, usually because of their own actions; I see ipods and pads everywhere. The sick part is that I have seen reserves where the houses are shanties and there are 55 inch plasmas and and XBOXs in them!?! Kids have nice clothes, you can go to second hand stores and walk out with name brand cloths that are brand new basically for next to nothing. I understand that times are tougher in the US right now than in Canada, but things have never really been that good in Saskatchewan aside from the last 6-7 years, and we all had nice stuff. Did the over-consumption get out of hand over the last 20 years?.. UH, ya! But that was part OUR fault as the younger generation too. The way I see it, there is a lot of stuff out there and we have it pretty good as the next generation coming up compared to how any generation before us has had it. I look at it like this: Generation XY, or the "Echo boomers", are labeled lazy entitled brats. It's the "ME" generation coming after that.. This doesn't happen when things are shitty. Look at the rest of the world(aside from a few choice places), that's what it looks like. Starving and sick, eating garbage and rats off the street. Drinking garbage and sewer water. All we need is a mentality shift, and we are seeing that right now.. Balance is what it's going to be about going forward. Happiness not GDP ![8-)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/cool.png)
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fairlycrazy23
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Post by fairlycrazy23 on Jul 13, 2012 7:21:49 GMT -5
The more I think about this issue, I am coming to a conclusion. It is all the boomer's fault. I am a boomer. Four bedroom house, a few years from retirement. We have six televisions, three in bedrooms, one in living room, one in rec room, one on the three season porch. Two refrigerators-one in kitchen, three years old, one in the garage, removed there for the new one in kitchen. Two dvr players, and four, out of date and useless vcr's not to mention an old vcr I saved that was on the old Panasonic tape system-I saved that one because it literally had large rubber bands to turn the tapes inside, so old fashioned, maybe becomes an antique in the future. Cars- remember when everyone was renting in with three year plans, and turning in after three years and getting another one? We never did, but many boomers did. Sometimes two rentals to the family. Well, today, boomers are not doing that much any longer. Buying, and living with the cars for say,five years or so, maybe longer. Remember the video camera craze? Husband and wife might both have owned one. Then the digital camera craze came out, and one for EVERY MEMBER of the house, and maybe one for a grandchild too. The cell phones---we all know how that craze has developed, and now tablets........... Bottom line, boomers are coming to the end of their flagrant disregard of spending. We have learned we do not need all the useless gadgets anymore. With the generation X'ers coming along, not quite as well off, and their children in even worse economic shape, we cannot get the spending going again. Thus, big Government thinks it is up to them to flood the country with bennies to keep it going. Yep. Blame it on the boomers. We made the economy what it was, and now we are making it what it is. ![:(](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/sad.png) That is part of the problem, however, a bigger part is the low cost of money. What enabled them to do all this was extremely easy credit.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2012 8:01:35 GMT -5
everyone knows it, but the question is WHY? before you jump to any conclusions, read THIS: seekingalpha.com/article/294847-weakest-recovery-since-great-depression-in-chartsi have been contending that this is a natural correction to a financial meltdown that was precipitated by policies that we adopted under Clinton. i am starting to think, based on the above, that i am totally wrong. this appears to be something more fundamental than that, and it appears to have to do with personal debt. this is a VERY long read, but has a lot of interesting data in it. i would encourage anyone interested in US economics to read it, but i will understand if some of you simply lack the time. but for those that won't even click the link, here is the crux of the article: What policy and monetary makers fail to grasp is that this time really is different. Typically it’s the cyclical sectors of the economy such as business inventories, auto production, etc. that lead to the variability of the economy and produce expansions and contractions. However, this time around the main driving force is a broken consumer credit cycle. Rather than leveraging up on debt like they have during every recovery since the Great Depression, the U.S. consumer has reached maximum credit saturation and instead is deleveraging and reducing overall debt levels. This has not happened since the Great Depression and the sooner Washington figures this out the better as policies to stimulate consumption such as tax breaks and more transfer payments aren’t going to do the trick. Overall debt levels must come back down further to more normal levels relative to economic activity. I agree with that summation and would like to add that the price of energy seems to move in lockstep with the level of global economic activity further compounded by the simultaneous green energy source push. It may sound negative but that's what's happening, and it's having a governing effect on what could be considered a return to normal economic activity levels.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 13, 2012 8:34:41 GMT -5
everyone knows it, but the question is WHY? before you jump to any conclusions, read THIS: seekingalpha.com/article/294847-weakest-recovery-since-great-depression-in-chartsi have been contending that this is a natural correction to a financial meltdown that was precipitated by policies that we adopted under Clinton. i am starting to think, based on the above, that i am totally wrong. this appears to be something more fundamental than that, and it appears to have to do with personal debt. this is a VERY long read, but has a lot of interesting data in it. i would encourage anyone interested in US economics to read it, but i will understand if some of you simply lack the time. but for those that won't even click the link, here is the crux of the article: What policy and monetary makers fail to grasp is that this time really is different. Typically it’s the cyclical sectors of the economy such as business inventories, auto production, etc. that lead to the variability of the economy and produce expansions and contractions. However, this time around the main driving force is a broken consumer credit cycle. Rather than leveraging up on debt like they have during every recovery since the Great Depression, the U.S. consumer has reached maximum credit saturation and instead is deleveraging and reducing overall debt levels. This has not happened since the Great Depression and the sooner Washington figures this out the better as policies to stimulate consumption such as tax breaks and more transfer payments aren’t going to do the trick. Overall debt levels must come back down further to more normal levels relative to economic activity. I agree with that summation and would like to add that the price of energy seems to move in lockstep with the level of global economic activity further compounded by the simultaneous green energy source push. It may sound negative but that's what's happening, and it's having a governing effect on what could be considered a return to normal economic activity levels. i agree, jma. this type of recovery is like getting a tractor out of quicksand. it can be done, but it is slow going.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 13, 2012 8:43:24 GMT -5
note to the board: i am really pleased with this thread, which has had a lot of thoughtful commentary and almost no bashing. thanks to all.
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zipity
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Post by zipity on Jul 13, 2012 21:06:22 GMT -5
zip- i like that last post very much. thanks for putting it up, and you got a kudo for it.
My pleasure DJ, glad you liked it.
The more I think about this issue, I am coming to a conclusion. It is all the boomer's fault. I am a boomer. Four bedroom house, a few years from retirement. We have six televisions, three in bedrooms, one in living room, one in rec room, one on the three season porch.
Value, I'm probably within a few years of you and similar in some ways but reading your post made me think about my dad. My parents grew up during the depression. He went off to WWII and returned determined to give his family better than he had. The funny thing is when you put it in perspective, he wasn't much different than people today. Yes technology was different so he didn't have 6 TVs however he and we owned a number of transistor radios. We had a radio/stereo in just about every room and when Sony Walkman's came out he couldn't believe the technology. He never had a TV growing up so instead relied on radio and when you think about aside from the technology he showed the same desire for gadgets that boomers do. He grew up with an ice box and felt on top of the world with 2 refrigerators. IMO, houses definitely got bigger, technology went very electronic but the desire to give the family everything possible doesn't seem to be new with the boomers.
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handyman2
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Post by handyman2 on Jul 13, 2012 22:02:04 GMT -5
Zipity my dad was much as yours. Worked in the CCC's until the war started. After WW-2 things started progressing pretty fast compared to the 50 years before. One thing he always stressed to me was that there are no free tickets in life. You want something work for it. If you don't want to work for it you don't need it. He was right. To bad that is not stressed more today.
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dumdeedoe
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Post by dumdeedoe on Jul 13, 2012 23:53:43 GMT -5
I have always said that my generation would be the one that starts the fall of America. I am mid 40s not as sucessful as my father but not doing bad. I was raised with the philosophy that in life you have no rights you have to earn privilege. My dad was a hard teacher. I can remember my brother making a deal with him to purchase a motorcycle. When they went to buy the item my brother was 10 dollars short. My father turned around and drove him back to the house empty handed. We learned work ethic. I was working as soon as I could, mowing yards and washing neighbors cars. My brother went to work at 16 years old at a truck stop changing tires and gassing rigs. He would pull double shifts. My parents would have to go get him and make him stop working. As I got older I noticed that I was raise by a relic code that no longer existed among my peers. I often wonder if the malaise that we have nowadays is because my generation 45- and younger have never seen hard times..
We had no WW1-WW2.Vietnam was just ending and I was to young to notice the political up heaval. We had 40 of the most relaxed years in modern history and I fear it has made us weak.
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vandalshandle
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Post by vandalshandle on Jul 14, 2012 0:03:10 GMT -5
When I was a kid, I had to walk 10 miles to school, barefooted in the snow, uphill both ways. We were each expected to chop firewood on the way, and pack in around 25 pounds from the forest, so that the classroom had enough heat to keep the ink in our wells from freezing. The class after us got a coal stove and once per week delivery of fuel. That was the beginning of the downfall of this nation...
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Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger
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Post by Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger on Jul 14, 2012 0:08:53 GMT -5
note to the board: i am really pleased with this thread, which has had a lot of thoughtful commentary and almost no bashing. thanks to all. Agreed! ![8-)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/cool.png) Exactly, and during that time a whole new concept of money and how it should be handled will come forward. It's all part of evolution. The younger people spent lots of time with grandpa and grandma while the boomers were away on business.. ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 16, 2012 22:53:51 GMT -5
note to the board: i am really pleased with this thread, which has had a lot of thoughtful commentary and almost no bashing. thanks to all. Agreed! ![8-)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/cool.png) Exactly, and during that time a whole new concept of money and how it should be handled will come forward. It's all part of evolution. The younger people spent lots of time with grandpa and grandma while the boomers were away on business.. ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) the generational knowledge is nearly lost. this is the worst crisis in 80 years, and those that lived through the last one are either dead now, or were only children then. we are needing to relearn a lot of this from memories of conversations with them, or from reading about it. one thing is for certain though. almost all popular notions about the nature of this downturn are WRONG. it is not something that we can tax break and save our way out of. it is going to be a slow, painful grind, and yes- a reworking of our priorities at almost every level.
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rockon
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Post by rockon on Jul 17, 2012 8:00:11 GMT -5
"However, this time around the main driving force is a broken consumer credit cycle. Rather than leveraging up on debt like they have during every recovery since the Great Depression, the U.S. consumer has reached maximum credit saturation and instead is deleveraging and reducing overall debt levels. " "Overall debt levels must come back down further to more normal levels relative to economic activity." "note to the board: i am really pleased with this thread, which has had a lot of thoughtful commentary and almost no bashing. thanks to all."
Thanks djlungrot , I agree our debt levels have become unsustainable both on a personal and national level relative to our economy activity but our economic activity has not grown as normal because of decisions made during the Clinton years. They work hand in hand.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Jul 17, 2012 8:11:42 GMT -5
Thanks djlungrot , I agree our debt levels have become unsustainable both on a personal and national level relative to our economy activity but our economic activity has not grown as normal because of decisions made during the Clinton years. They work hand in hand.
They have? Consumer debt has plunged significantly. Govt debt has ballooned.
Don't know if you guys remember MTL from the old forums but he pointed this out back in late 2010. I don't have any links or anything of the sort though.
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rockon
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Post by rockon on Jul 17, 2012 8:13:27 GMT -5
It will be a slow recovery if done properly and will involve making fundamental changes to our trade agreements, entitlement programs, judicial system, social system, corporate structure, military goals, energy program, federal government over reach just to name some big ones. A short term improvement may happen but a true recovery will not happen if we simply think we can increase taxes, reduce spending or a combination of both and that is really the only options I hear politicians arguing about today. There is nothing wrong with spending money during a recession on necessary things to achieve specific long term goals if the money has been saved during good economic times but the idea that we can borrow money from a communist country who hates us and our ideals to provide some temporary jobs and increase our already insanely high debt load is the real kiss of death. The current situation has been building for decades and is the result of many mistakes from both parties but the real mistake today is believing that what Obama has done over the last four years is a change of direction when we really have only accelerated in the same direction.
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rockon
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Post by rockon on Jul 17, 2012 8:21:00 GMT -5
"They have? Consumer debt has plunged significantly. Govt debt has ballooned. "
Both are debt. Debt can increase if it is relative to your economic activity. The problem we have is that while our debt increases our economic growth slowed. IMO largely due to decision made many years before. The real problem is that no one in politics seems to understand how to correct it or maybe they simply know it is political suicide to do what actually needs done. We saw what type of response Scott Walker got right?
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Jul 17, 2012 8:51:23 GMT -5
I guess no one gives any credence at all to Fareed Zakarias take as to why this recovery is taking longer then past ones when you compare them side by side..oh well.. ----------------------------------------------------------------- his reasoning as to why job recovery is slower now then in the past after a recession in the country. People are complaining , rightfully In my opinion, have a right to ask questions and ask why.. He, Zakaria gives his reasoning, at least there is a explanatiion... don't like the explanation then formulate your own.. --------------------------------------------------- transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1207/15/fzgps.01.html---------------------------------------------------- there was a thread put up on it ...
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Jul 17, 2012 9:09:39 GMT -5
"They have? Consumer debt has plunged significantly. Govt debt has ballooned. " Both are debt. Debt can increase if it is relative to your economic activity. The problem we have is that while our debt increases our economic growth slowed. IMO largely due to decision made many years before. The real problem is that no one in politics seems to understand how to correct it or maybe they simply know it is political suicide to do what actually needs done. We saw what type of response Scott Walker got right? Aggregate debt stayed roughly the same.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Jul 17, 2012 9:11:43 GMT -5
his reasoning as to why job recovery is slower now then in the past after a recession in the country
Business investment has not recovered. There has never been so much uncertainty with policy and tax regulations, than in any other recession the US has under gone.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Jul 17, 2012 9:45:18 GMT -5
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 17, 2012 11:16:44 GMT -5
Thanks djlungrot , I agree our debt levels have become unsustainable both on a personal and national level relative to our economy activity but our economic activity has not grown as normal because of decisions made during the Clinton years. They work hand in hand.They have? Consumer debt has plunged significantly. Govt debt has ballooned. i don't think that is what rockon was saying. i think he was saying that the economic malaise is related to financial conditions that have been coming to the fore since Clinton (i would argue since Ford, but whatever).
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 17, 2012 11:18:16 GMT -5
Message deleted by djlungrot.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 17, 2012 11:21:36 GMT -5
his reasoning as to why job recovery is slower now then in the past after a recession in the countryBusiness investment has not recovered. how closely does this metric follow employment, SF?There has never been so much uncertainty with policy and tax regulations, than in any other recession the US has under gone. never is a strong word. there was far more uncertainty in 1981, 1961, and 1931 over tax policy and "regulations" (which have been fewer in number and scale under Obama than Bush).
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reasonfreedom
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Post by reasonfreedom on Jul 17, 2012 16:14:24 GMT -5
his reasoning as to why job recovery is slower now then in the past after a recession in the countryBusiness investment has not recovered. how closely does this metric follow employment, SF?There has never been so much uncertainty with policy and tax regulations, than in any other recession the US has under gone. never is a strong word. there was far more uncertainty in 1981, 1961, and 1931 over tax policy and "regulations" (which have been fewer in number and scale under Obama than Bush). Actually I would still think there would be less uncertainty, since there was a smaller population and most likely less businesses back then.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 17, 2012 16:24:30 GMT -5
never is a strong word. there was far more uncertainty in 1981, 1961, and 1931 over tax policy and "regulations" (which have been fewer in number and scale under Obama than Bush). Actually I would still think there would be less uncertainty, since there was a smaller population and most likely less businesses back then. ABSOLUTIST! ;D
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hannah27
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Post by hannah27 on Jul 22, 2012 8:21:49 GMT -5
The problem is that most people don't value quality anymore. They want bigger, better and newer. How else do you explain the McMansion craze? Those were the boomer chicks trying to out do their chick friends. You know, sort of like who had the grandest wedding... ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/tongue2.png) Correction: It is not the "boomer chicks" who are having the ridiculous lavish weddings because they're too old. It is their daughters and granddaughters. I get so tired of Boomers being blamed for everything from the current state of [insert anything from soup to nuts] to moldy cheese.
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handyman2
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Post by handyman2 on Jul 22, 2012 9:21:05 GMT -5
I agree about the lavish wedding boomers spend on grands. My grand daughters wedding cost more than the first house I bought. But paw paw and me maw are old soft touches. What can I say.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 22, 2012 9:32:26 GMT -5
The more I think about this issue, I am coming to a conclusion. It is all the boomer's fault. I am a boomer. Four bedroom house, a few years from retirement. We have six televisions, three in bedrooms, one in living room, one in rec room, one on the three season porch. Two refrigerators-one in kitchen, three years old, one in the garage, removed there for the new one in kitchen. Two dvr players, and four, out of date and useless vcr's not to mention an old vcr I saved that was on the old Panasonic tape system-I saved that one because it literally had large rubber bands to turn the tapes inside, so old fashioned, maybe becomes an antique in the future. Cars- remember when everyone was renting in with three year plans, and turning in after three years and getting another one? We never did, but many boomers did. Sometimes two rentals to the family. Well, today, boomers are not doing that much any longer. Buying, and living with the cars for say,five years or so, maybe longer. Remember the video camera craze? Husband and wife might both have owned one. Then the digital camera craze came out, and one for EVERY MEMBER of the house, and maybe one for a grandchild too. The cell phones---we all know how that craze has developed, and now tablets........... Bottom line, boomers are coming to the end of their flagrant disregard of spending. We have learned we do not need all the useless gadgets anymore. With the generation X'ers coming along, not quite as well off, and their children in even worse economic shape, we cannot get the spending going again. Thus, big Government thinks it is up to them to flood the country with bennies to keep it going. Yep. Blame it on the boomers. We made the economy what it was, and now we are making it what it is. ![:(](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/sad.png) I don't think it had anything inherently to do with the Boomers or any particular generation. It had to do with the change in manufacturing and consumer culture. Consumers cannot buy what doesn't exist. Businesses started creating demand by doing colors in appliances, cars, and because of the nature of change in electronics where the latest greatest was always coming out. Colored appliances predate my birth and I'm a tail end Boomer if you use the most expansive definition. I believe Aqua appliances came out fairly early. The expansion of colors in appliances started before the 70s, possibly even in the 60s or late 50s. I'm not sure when non black cars started their existence but it had to be before 1920 as I've seen some nice examples in aqua and white from the era. As a late Boomer I've never had more than one TV and most people I know who have multiple frigs or freezers are usually those who live in their homes for a long time and have a place to keep the old one. In the 1960s growing up we had a freezer in the garage for extra storage. Since my jobs and employers have not been as stable as those of my parents I have not accumulated stuff like them or ValueBuy. There are pack rats and consumers of all ages and generations. It was the change of products that influenced this coupled with the expansion of credit. Think Diners Card versus all the possibilities now including debit cards. Some of us, myself included, prefer to buy quality and would rather have one good thing instead of multiple versions. With TV and came massive advertising to encourage consumerism and the belief appearance matters more than substance. That's where the desire for new cars and big homes comes from in part. Heck the really rich socialites and celebs worry about nonsense like last seasons purse or last year's car.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 22, 2012 9:39:09 GMT -5
I agree about the lavish wedding boomers spend on grands. My grand daughters wedding cost more than the first house I bought. But paw paw and me maw are old soft touches. What can I say. I think it depends more on culture and finances than generation. There are still Boomers in all small towns, especially in parts of the Midwest who have or host weddings in the backyard or the church basement. On the other hand, areas like NYC and NJ have been havens of lavish events for many many decades. Like all decades as well sometimes the parents pay for it and sometimes its the children. I live in NJ. There are some generations much younger than Boomers that insist on the big extravaganza. Think Caiwau's threads on his cousin's wedding. That is not an uncommon scenario.
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Don Perignon
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Post by Don Perignon on Jul 22, 2012 15:24:43 GMT -5
Many of the weddings between "boomers" that I have attended have been al fresco events, with vows taken in rose gardens, on beaches etc. Receptions were either in private homes, or in small church halls or halls rented from the American Legion or the VFW. For the "boomer" generation, "hotel" weddings and receptions were the exception rather than the rule.
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