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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2012 13:27:12 GMT -5
scotusblog.wpengine.com/On an unrelated note, I have never sat on the edge of my seat for a SCOTUS decision before. But the live coverage and discussion on SCOTUS blog was pretty exciting this morning. They do good work... I'll be tuning in Thursday for sure.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 25, 2012 13:33:35 GMT -5
i think that Obama made a mistake defending this using the Commerce Clause. i could spend a thousand words describing why, but i would have relied on the preamble, instead. then again, Obama is the constitutional guy, so he probably knows better.
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on Jun 25, 2012 14:07:48 GMT -5
i think that Obama made a mistake defending this using the Commerce Clause. i could spend a thousand words describing why, but i would have relied on the preamble, instead. then again, Obama is the constitutional guy, so he probably knows better. His lawyers got skewered. The lawyer arguing against it turned in quite possibly the best arguments of his career. The government guy? Not so much. I don't think anyone expected the government lawyers to perform so poorly. I'm ok with that though. I think they need to start over and actually read and understand any future changes to our healthcare system before they vote.
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SweetVirginia
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Post by SweetVirginia on Jun 25, 2012 14:45:35 GMT -5
I wonder if the Republicans will ever acknowledge that the individual mandate was their idea that they supported for quite a while. Probably not
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2012 15:40:49 GMT -5
insurance companies benefit most ... they won't be forced to provide insurance to those with pre-existing conditions ... an issue that the creepy repubs refuse to address with anything other than lip service How very subjective of you! It's quite humorous to see people that just stand on one side of the aisle believing the other side is wrong. Rose-colored glasses and all that.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2012 15:42:12 GMT -5
I wonder if the Republicans will ever acknowledge that the individual mandate was their idea that they supported for quite a while. Probably not Was this at a state level or at the federal level? I'm genuinely curious as there is a vast difference.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2012 15:44:32 GMT -5
I don't know who thought it up, but Newt Gingrich used to advocate for it - so federal.
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ungenteel
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Post by ungenteel on Jun 25, 2012 19:28:07 GMT -5
What kind of half wit supports "for profit medicine"? ... I think that private enterprise is absolutely the best system for making widgets .. I've worked in private enterprise all of my life
Private enterprise has two goals .. to maximize the intake of dollars and to minimize the outflow of dollars ... not a good recipes for health care decisions
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vandalshandle
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Post by vandalshandle on Jun 25, 2012 20:16:32 GMT -5
The single payer medicare system works just fine, and has been since 1966. Medicare works even better since they allow private insurance plans to compete with their Advantage plans. I have been covered by Medicare for years, and my only problem is the RX donut hole. Starting each July, I have to cut back on my maintenance medication because of the cost.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 25, 2012 21:02:05 GMT -5
I wonder if the Republicans will ever acknowledge that the individual mandate was their idea that they supported for quite a while. Probably not Was this at a state level or at the federal level? I'm genuinely curious as there is a vast difference. both. Gingrich supported it up until 2010. Romney, of course, not only supported it, but implemented it.
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formerexpat
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Post by formerexpat on Jun 25, 2012 21:08:14 GMT -5
The middle class because they won't have to pay for this ill thought out legislation.
However, at the end of the day, DC will chop it up, fuck it up and stick it up the ass of the American public so we'll all lose...except the gang of 535 that gives themselves the best care outside of the current system we all use.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 25, 2012 21:10:35 GMT -5
The middle class because they won't have to pay for this ill thought out legislation. However, at the end of the day, DC will chop it up, fuck it up and stick it up the ass of the American public so we'll all lose...except the gang of 535 that gives themselves the best care outside of the current system we all use. don't forget- we voted for them. so, we paid for our enema.
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formerexpat
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Post by formerexpat on Jun 25, 2012 21:10:48 GMT -5
I'll ask you again to explain the health insurance business model since it's clear you don't know. Go ahead and do a little research - we'll wait...shit, I've been waiting for you to do the research for over a year now.
I'll also ask how you remove for profit medicine by simply making insurance non profit?
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on Jun 25, 2012 21:38:02 GMT -5
The single payer medicare system works just fine, and has been since 1966. Medicare works even better since they allow private insurance plans to compete with their Advantage plans. I have been covered by Medicare for years, and my only problem is the RX donut hole. Starting each July, I have to cut back on my maintenance medication because of the cost. Bwahaha! You have no idea how fucked up Medicare is. And the Advantage plans are a drain. They'll be axed eventually because they run more than fee for service Medicare. For profit drives innovation and gives us things like new drugs for cancer and juvenile diabetes. And it socialized medicine was vastly superior those with money wouldn't come from those countries to the US for treatment.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 25, 2012 22:01:53 GMT -5
The single payer medicare system works just fine, and has been since 1966. Medicare works even better since they allow private insurance plans to compete with their Advantage plans. I have been covered by Medicare for years, and my only problem is the RX donut hole. Starting each July, I have to cut back on my maintenance medication because of the cost. Bwahaha! You have no idea how fucked up Medicare is. And the Advantage plans are a drain. They'll be axed eventually because they run more than fee for service Medicare. For profit drives innovation and gives us things like new drugs for cancer and juvenile diabetes. And it socialized medicine was vastly superior those with money wouldn't come from those countries to the US for treatment. For profit does drive innovation but it tends to increase costs instead of decrease them. As a viable free market solution it has been shown to be a fail as the wealth continues to concentrate more in the hands of the few. While single payer isn't an ultimate best of everything solution it would cover 100% of the people instead of 80% and dropping plus if government got more into health care cheap solutions that for profit pharma hates could be solutions the government uses to cut costs. No medicine anywhere IMO is superior. There are people who travel to third world countries to healers who can do what medical science cannot. A recent blue zone book spoke of a young girl in Mexico who daily has people waiting for her. And if you've heard of John of God you'd know people from around the world go to him because he can literally perform miracles. The overall health of our citizens is abysmal given the wealth of our nation. Medicare has its issues but I bet its like any corporation. When I first started working for AT&T I was amazed that with all the things IMO it was doing wrong it was amazing it didn't die and go out of business. I've learned working other places that any business can do many stupid things and survive. Government likely isn't inherently any dumber or smarter than corporations as both are composed of fallible people with issues.
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on Jun 25, 2012 22:07:08 GMT -5
They lose at least $90 billion a year to fraud. Last year was the best year for recovery at $4 billion and most of it came from a handful of large pharmaceutical manufacturers. The government simply cannot afford to expand Medicare/Medicaid as they currently are. And I don't see any cooperation to improve the model and reduce the risk of fraud.
Yes, innovation isn't free but I consider it worthwhile. And for all of you ranting about private insurance companies, they don't have the fraud numbers Medicare does. Obviously they are doing something right. When you run a trillion into the red, $90 billion matters.
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formerexpat
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Post by formerexpat on Jun 25, 2012 22:22:30 GMT -5
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on Jun 25, 2012 22:25:57 GMT -5
Last I checked private insurance companies were all about cheap solutions. Hell my insurance company doesn't even charge me a copay for generic medications.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 25, 2012 22:27:10 GMT -5
They lose at least $90 billion a year to fraud. how does this compare to private insurers? how does it compare to their profits?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 25, 2012 22:37:02 GMT -5
... You do realize that government spending in health care has increased 2.2% (per annum) more than the private sector since 2000, right? .... There are now more Americans age 65 and older than at any other time in U.S. history. According to a new Census Bureau report, there were 40.3 million people age 65 and older on April 1, 2010, up 5.3 percent from 35 million in 2000 (and just 3.1 million in 1900). ... The 65-and-older population jumped 15.1 percent between 2000 and 2010, compared with a 9.7 percent increase for the total U.S. population. money.usnews.com/money/retirement/articles/2012/01/09/65-and-older-population-soars
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 25, 2012 22:39:21 GMT -5
And it socialized medicine was vastly superior those with money wouldn't come from those countries to the US for treatment ---------------------- Interesting that you don't mention the other side of the coin..... all the Americans who travel to places like India for cradiac surgery and hip replacements. "With money" is correct, however. If you have enough of it, American care is top-notch.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2012 22:45:54 GMT -5
For profit drives innovation and gives us things like new drugs for cancer and juvenile diabetes. A double-edged sword. Profit also restricts access to things like new drugs for cancer. Needless to add - profit is not the only thing that drives innovation. Socialised medicine is vastly superior because it takes care of those without money.
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formerexpat
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Post by formerexpat on Jun 25, 2012 22:49:39 GMT -5
13% of population, 46% of spending.
But, to give your stats a bit of focus; how exactly is the insurance industry responsible for the increase in spending due to an aging population and promises made (and underfunded) by the government?
Let's remember that the 46% of government spending doesn't include the subsidization that is borne by the private sector through regular practice of underpayment for procedures to Medicare / Caid patients.
Actually, the more appropriate quote would be surrounded by "within range of top notch hospitals". Many people, rich and poor alike, receive great care at top notch hospitals regardless of their financial condition.
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formerexpat
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Post by formerexpat on Jun 25, 2012 22:51:08 GMT -5
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 25, 2012 23:00:44 GMT -5
13% of population, 46% of spending. ... Older people tend to have higher medical expenses than people in the middle of life. They are not the only people covered by government programs also. WIC is one example. And guess what, very young people tend to have higher medical expanses than people in the middle of life. Ain't reality a bitch.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2012 23:00:56 GMT -5
You illustrate my point nicely; a brand of extortion perpetrated against humanity by the pharmaceutical industry. Is this what science is for I wonder.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 25, 2012 23:08:00 GMT -5
You illustrate my point nicely; a brand of extortion perpetrated against humanity by the pharmaceutical industry. Is this what science is for I wonder. no. it is there for breast and penile enhancement. everyone knows that.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2012 7:20:45 GMT -5
I think you go to Brazil for that, actually.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 26, 2012 7:41:13 GMT -5
Well, considering how they screwed Arizona, I would assume they will continue the screwing.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 26, 2012 8:26:51 GMT -5
Last I checked private insurance companies were all about cheap solutions. Hell my insurance company doesn't even charge me a copay for generic medications. But only cheap solutions in the realm of their knowledge using a western medical model. Lithium was used for manic depression in spite of the fact the Pharma companies couldn't make much money on it. The reason it is still used is because so far no manufactured drugs have beaten its performance profile. Because the US is western medicine with a huge lobby of doctors and pharma lots of cheaper solutions aren't even considered or tested such as alternative medicine and herbs, etc. In fact the lobby is so strong, that alternative medicine is called alternative medicine instead of something denoting it is a viable standalone choice. It has been legislated into impotence although some areas have crawled into the AMA table scraps arena. Likewise, the FDA is trying to regulate herbs and supplements not purely for safety and health reasons but with the added Pharma pressure of making sure these aren't used and lessen their expected yearly profits. If and only if the government takes on healthcare could the FDA use its power to transform the herb and supplement industry to a path for more affordable, more sustainable healthcare. Another example, think of the difference in pain management between China and the US. China used accupressure and reusable accupunture needles. In the US it is one time use pills and IV drips, i.e. continuing costs in the US versus one time costs in China.
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