midjd
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Post by midjd on Jun 1, 2012 8:57:14 GMT -5
I guess I'm lucky in that none of my family members have any items valuable enough to be worth fighting over I can understand the OP's frustration, but also agree that there's no logical reason for it - the item was the uncle's to sell. Once you give something to someone, you pretty much give up any right to dictate what they do with it.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jun 1, 2012 8:57:39 GMT -5
Your grandmother gave away what you consider to be a family heirloom. Except it wasn't even a family heirloom, it was a gun her brother had from the military, it was a first-generation possession when she gave it away. And now you're upset that the person she gave it to decided to sell it because he also recognized it wasn't an heirloom and had no particular value to anyone in the entire family at the time.
"I think my grandfather would also be pissed to know that it got sold out of the family."
Your grandfather would have been mad that his brother-in-laws gun was sold? That seems really weird considering that the closest relative to the gun's original owner gave it away as help for moving.
I also don't get the idea that he should have given it away or sold it back to the family. You thought he should track down every family member to see if they wanted to buy it from him? And he should do this for a possession which is not any kind of family heirloom and which no one in the family had shown any real interest in valuing?
To be an heirloom it needs to be passed down through a family for generations. This one was given away outside the family in single generation, it's not an heirloom. It's cool, but you can hardly expect someone to run it by all living family members anytime they want to sell something "cool".
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 1, 2012 8:59:20 GMT -5
It's usually not the valuable stuff that people fight over. The worst estate fights I've seen are over crap.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jun 1, 2012 9:00:22 GMT -5
I guess I'm lucky in that none of my family members have any items valuable enough to be worth fighting over I can understand the OP's frustration, but also agree that there's no logical reason for it - the item was the uncle's to sell. Once you give something to someone, you pretty much give up any right to dictate what they do with it. I could see a bit more frustration if this was truly a family heirloom passed down though. If 7 generations of family had passed this down through the sons, and all of a sudden one son decides to sell it off, I can see being upset in that you're breaking a family tradition. In this case grandma's brother gave her a gun. She gave it to someone as payment for helping her move. He decided to sell it for money. There's no tradition, and there's no heirloom.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 1, 2012 9:01:08 GMT -5
Well, I am donating a lot of my dads stuff to a museum. I think it's cool that people like to look at old stuff. One of his items is a pump organ. How cool is that?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 1, 2012 9:01:27 GMT -5
Antique pistols and swords, too.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2012 9:03:35 GMT -5
It's usually not the valuable stuff that people fight over. The worst estate fights I've seen are over crap. All's I know is that when FIL kicks the bucket, I call dibs on his Beanie Baby collection.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 1, 2012 9:05:52 GMT -5
I slready told my Aunt when she dies, I want her towels!
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Jun 1, 2012 9:07:31 GMT -5
I got a lot of heirloom "antique" items from my Maternal Grandmother's estate. I bought a china cabinet just to display the stuff. It is an eclectic mix of china and collectibles including china hand painted by my Mom's aunt. It is of value to the family, but probably not particularly valuable outside the family.
I currently have an antique dresser over 100 years old that I may give away to goodwill or rummage off for whatever I can get for it. I have an antique bedroom set in pretty rough shape - headboard foot board, side rails, vanity and chest of drawers that I will do the same with soon.
Mom gave me permission to get rid of it over a year ago. I have offered it to family and have no takers. As 2 kids 10 horses said - furniture is difficult b/c you have to have a use and a place for it.
Mom has a beautiful antique bedroom set in vg condition (but it is a double bed), an antique spool bed, an antique dresser with oak leaf drawer pulls, a desk with the curved glass on it, etc etc. When she goes those will be difficult decisions to make, but I suspect some of it may well get sold. Hopefully some of the grands will be setting up households and will have room for it.
When my Maternal Grandmother died my Uncle was executor of the estate and he decided to auction off grandma's stuff. My family had to bid against non-family members to get the stuff they wanted. Some things left the family and my aunts paid a lot for some things they really wanted...one cousin was bidding against my aunt for something and she just decided to stop bidding and let our aunt have it. Mom says she would have had an auction among family members only, but that being executor and making the decisions is hard and therefore they abided by my Uncle's decision and made no complaints about it. I agree with her completely. The family relationships are more important than the things.
My Mom had a friend that was related by marriage to my Dad's family. She saw an antique she wanted just sitting in Mom's garage and talked her out of it. Mom was later sorry she gave it up. I suspect that may be what happened with tedmil's uncle - someone asked him to sell it and kept asking for it so he gave it up.
I think if family members have heirlooms you are interested in, you should do something like what Bonn did. Don't assume it will go to one of their children or grandchildren. My brother and his wife are not into antiques. Their "share" of my grandma's stuff is at my Mom's house. It has been 19 years and they never asked for anything. Like I said, at this point in our lives to take something on, I have to have a place for it. My house leans to modern, so antiques won't necessarily work in it.
Mom got rid of Grandma's antique table too- as much as she liked it, the chairs loosened up after she had them re-glued and she was afraid a chair would collapse under someone. Some things are pretty to look at but have limited useful value.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2012 9:08:34 GMT -5
BTW Where was the family while she was moving out of the house?
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 1, 2012 9:09:03 GMT -5
BTW Where was the family while she was moving out of the house?
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 1, 2012 9:09:16 GMT -5
I don't get it. It's something you just now found out existed. Why do you have such strong feelings on it? I could understand it if it was something that had been passed down for generations and meant a lot to you but was sold out from under you.
But it's not. It's something you weren't even aware of and are now pissed off about. If he had never sold hte gun you wouldn't even be aware today of its existence. So why it is worth getting so upset over?
If everyone kept every single item that has ever belonged to a family member we'd all be on A&E.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Jun 1, 2012 9:13:57 GMT -5
BTW Where was the family while she was moving out of the house? I was thinking that too. ;D Reading things like this make me soooooo glad that I don't put much value in things.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2012 9:15:55 GMT -5
my MIL has kept just about everything her sons have ever made/had/touched. She would be so pissed to know that her dear sons would love nothing more than to call 1-800-GOT-JUNK and scrap everything in the house.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 1, 2012 9:20:12 GMT -5
I have some things of my grandmother's, I am wearing her ruby ring right now. That was left to me and my mom made sure I got it. I also have her Chinese lions that my grandfather sent her from Korea.
I've admired them since I was a kid. When my parents were cleaning out her house they asked me if there was anything I wanted and that's what I wanted.
If I had not spoken up the only person I should be pissed at is myself. You want something you need to say something. Once it is in someone else's possession they don't have any obligation towards you whatsoever.
My other grandmother has stuff she wants to give me but has told me she is perfectly fine with me throwing it out/donating it/selling it. She is dead, what does she care at that point? Anyone else wants it they better speak up because once it is mine I am doing with it as I please.
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Jun 1, 2012 9:22:50 GMT -5
I think a lot of you are confusing "item once owned by my family that might have historical/financial significance" with family heirloom. An heirloom is something that has emotional significance within the family, regardless of any other kind of value. If there isn't an emotional connection, then it's just money/prestige that you're fighting over.
For the OP, it sounds to me like your grandma gave someone a thank you gift. That person then decided to not keep the gift, and you're mad because he didn't think to check with you because the giver was your grandma. Yes, this was a cool piece, but it obviously didn't have the emotional significance of an heirloom, otherwise your grandmother never would have given it to someone outside of the family. If it were an heirloom, you would have heard about it before your Uncle's story because your mother and/or her siblings (if she has any) would have said at least once or twice- "Remember how mom had her brother's gun? I wonder what happened to it." Didn't happen. You say your grandfather would be mad it wasn't in the family, but I kind of doubt that, too, or at least doubt that he would have had any say in the matter. It wasn't his brother's rifle. It was your grandmother's brother's rifle, so she had every right to do with it as she wished. It doesn't sound like you had an emotional connection to your great uncle, so all this is is you being annoyed that you didn't get something that might have money or prestige attached.
My grandparents have some absolutely amazing Japanese art pieces from when they were stationed in Okinanawa after WWII. These pieces have definite historical/financial value (these are the type of pieces that the Japanese government wouldn't allow out of the country today). They are NOT family heirlooms. On my grandfather's death, they will be donated to various museums (local, state, Smithsonian), given to the Japanese housekeeper (and her family) who came with them from Okinawa, and in one or two cases, I believe the plan is to contact the Japanese Embassy about returning the pieces to Japan. These are just items, no matter their financial worth. The family heirlooms- quilts made by my grandmother, great, and great great grandmothers are all staying in the family. My grandfather's dog tags have already gone to my youngest cousin. I'd be pissed if the cousin gave away or sold the dog tags, but that's because they have emotional signifcance to people other than her (her mother would probably disown her for doing so), but at the same time, my grandmother had numerous strands of pearls- enough for every granddaughter, granddauther-in-law, and future granddaughter-in-law to get one. The strand I have is what I will pass on down to my children (who will be adopted and have no blood relation to my grandmother, but that won't make the items have any less emotional value). What the others do with theirs is their business.
Now, I will admit that my family is odd about this. My father decided he wanted to donate his old military uniforms to the county museum in my grandparent's hometown (to which my grandfather's and uncle's uniforms had already been donated). Before he did so, he asked mine and my brother's permission. We both agreed instantly. (Hey, then neither of us are responsible for keeping the things in good shape, and we always know where they are and can go visit them.)
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2kids10horses
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Post by 2kids10horses on Jun 1, 2012 9:33:54 GMT -5
tbird,
My father kept meticulous records of the finances. You know, the old manual double entry journal, and ledgers? Yeah, that.
He ran a small construction business. He had it orgainized as a Sub-Chapter S, and kept detailed records. Every check, every expense item were recorded. At one time, there were about a dozen filing cabinets of his financial records going back to the 1930's.
He kept a separate checking account for the household expenses.
And, a CPA prepared the taxes every year.
They had separate investment accounts at Merrill Lynch. She set up a Charitable Remainder Trust with HER money.
Oh, yes, I know that since he inherited the painting when they were married that technically she owned half, and when he died she owned them, it was her attitude that they were HERS. And it wasn't just recently she's acted that way, it's been over the past 40 to 50 years.
There's a long backstory, but my mother led a very shelter, protected life. My father did everything for her. Every week he'd slip money, cash, into her purse. So she always had cash to pay for whatever she wanted. She never really knew how to write a check. I can remember that on the odd occasion when she didn't have enough cash to pay for the groceries, and she would have trouble writing the check, the clerk would write it out for her. (I was about 10 years old, but I still remember.)
So, what has happened now that my Dad has passed away a couple of years ago, my mother has stumbled across his old check registers. He had them on yellow ledger paper, with deposits going in, checks written, and a new balance. He had them grouped (stapled together) by year. Mom found the stack from 1970 thru 2003. The household expense check register.
He use to tell her, as he got old, that she "needed to learn how to do this." That is, keep up with how much money they had in the bank. (CHecking account.) She never did.
So, now that's she found it, she remembered that he thought it was important. So, she picked it up, and tried to read it. And she sees where he paid for things. And she thinks it was out of her money. It was not. Her money was at Merrill Lynch. But, she can't understand what she's reading, so she imagines he was trying to "tell her something" about how he used all her money over the past 60 to 70 years.
So, here is a woman that can't write a check, claiming her husband "stole all her money" while she has an investment account worth several million.
Yes, she has dementia.
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Jun 1, 2012 9:44:01 GMT -5
OP: I think the thing that bothers me most about you being upset with this uncle is that if it weren't for him, you never would have had an appreciation of guns anyway. He has done everything right by you. When your father passed, he took your father's guns into trust for you, bascially. He kept them and cared for them and made sure you knew enough to use them and care for them once you were old enough to take these things for yourself. You say yourself that shooting is an activity you do with HIM, not anyone else. This is a man who helped is brother's wife's mother move. He's a good guy who has done right by you and your family. Heck, he's an uncle that still comes to visit you now that you're an adult. This relationship has got to have more value than some gun.
2kids: Okay, I know it hurts to hear your mother say these things about your father. My grandmother, in her dementia, became positive my grandfather was cheating on her. But paranoia is a very common symptom of dementia. You really just need to let go of anything she's saying now, because she doesn't really know what she's saying.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jun 1, 2012 9:52:06 GMT -5
"I think a lot of you are confusing "item once owned by my family that might have historical/financial significance" with family heirloom. An heirloom is something that has emotional significance within the family, regardless of any other kind of value. If there isn't an emotional connection, then it's just money/prestige that you're fighting over."
It also needs to have been passed down through the family to be an heirloom. So even that great little knick-knack that mom has that means so much to everyone in the family isn't an heirloom if she takes it to the antique store to sell one day. (which is essentially what grandma did in the OP's story, she got something from her brother, and she gave it away later)
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Post by findingdeadbeats on Jun 1, 2012 9:52:52 GMT -5
I slready told my Aunt when she dies, I want her towels! Clearly not having had enough coffee, I read that as "I have already SOLD my aunt when she dies." LOL It is interesting to me what happens when people die. I've already mentioned my BIL demanding my DH's guns. He also wants a photo album but I have been too pissed off at the gun issue to send it to him.
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skubikky
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Post by skubikky on Jun 1, 2012 9:56:10 GMT -5
2kids10horses
It sounds like you have and have had issues with your mother that have nothing to do with the painting, check books, money or anything else.
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Jun 1, 2012 10:00:36 GMT -5
It's usually not the valuable stuff that people fight over. The worst estate fights I've seen are over crap. Yep. What hurt me the most last summer as we were cleaning out my Grandma's house was I was told we could have whatever we wanted. My Grandparents had these toy tractors. My son adores toy tractors. I wanted one for him and I told my parents and Aunt and Uncle. I was totally blown off. My aunt said something to the effect of "well those may fetch some money at auction". My parents kind hem-hawed around and it was dropped because no one was in a hurry to finish cleaning it out. This spring we were offered a large portion of my Grandparent's farm equipment (Ford 8N tractor, brush hog, blade, disk, and plow). It probably totals $7500 to $10k in equipment that while over 60 years old is still in good shape and functional and we could use. We accepted the offer and asked again if we could have a toy tractor for our DS. This time we were told yes. But when they went to look for the toys. Only 2 tractors could be found and one was my uncle's (which was fine). Anyway, it bothers me that they didn't blink at giving us $10k worth of stuff, but the toy was a huge issue. No one else asked for the toy and in the end it all worked out and my son plays with his toy tractor basically everyday (and my DH plays with his real tractor every day too ). I think once everyone saw how much my son loved playing with that tractor a lot of the concerns went away. Anyway, OP I think you need to let it go if you want to have a good relationship with your uncle. I can understand being a little upset and maybe tell your Uncle that you would like a shot to buy anything else he might sell.
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kdamron
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Post by kdamron on Jun 1, 2012 10:17:50 GMT -5
Heirlooms are funny sometimes. I have my grandmother's china and a tea set (never used still in the shipping crate) that my Uncle sent back to grandma from occupied Japan (it is stamped). I treasure the china more than the tea set because I remember eating off of it many Thanksgivings as a child. It was hers to dispose of as she wished, but I am honored that she wanted me to have it. I never look at a piece without remembering her and all those wonderful meals...
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Jun 1, 2012 14:05:24 GMT -5
I only have one story of a relative that irked me, but it was about a piece of property not just a "family heirloom". It was a waterfront home my dad's parents had built when my dad and his siblings were kids. Even after they moved out they kept it and we spent tons of time down there growing up. When my grandmother died she left the house in trust for her kids and to pass down to her grandkids. They tried to deal with it but it became too much expense on some of the siblings so they got the trust broken and had to have all of us grandkids give permission to do so. There was still some provision about not selling it that I don't recall all the legalities of. Slowly, my uncle came to own the house outright as his siblings sold their parts to him. He had no kids and could afford the upkeep better. A few years ago, he decided he wanted to sell it because it was getting too hard to keep up with 2 houses and again, all the grandkids had to sign off on it. All we asked was notice of when it'd been sold so we could have one more family gathering there. Not only didn't he tell us when he'd sold it, he bought a house ACROSS THE FREAKING COUNTRY. 2 houses 15 minutes apart were too much to handle but that's ok? ? I'd have gotten over not being notified but that just really ticked me off. I didn't say anything because I really can't, I said he could do what he wanted with it because I couldn't afford the dang thing myself not because I didn't want it but I still signed off on it. Doesn't mean I can't be mad though.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 1, 2012 14:10:32 GMT -5
CL, that's kind of what happened to my husband, but we were the offenders!lol His grandparents built the family home and then it was to his dad and then finally my husband. His sister did NOT want us to sell the house because she wanted it but she couldn't come close to getting a mortgage. She actually expected us to keep it and let her live there. We kept it for 3 years but finally my husband sold it. Granted, we could afford it but it was money out of our household every month for no reason. Actually, htat house was one of the main reasons we split our finances because I was sick of paying for the god damn thing!
Anyway, his sister is still mad at him and it has been since october. Honestly, I'm all "good riddance" because I think she expected WAY too much from us. He is the only family he has left so he it hurt by her actions...he knows he did the right thing but he is hurt by her actions.
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Jun 1, 2012 14:17:02 GMT -5
See, I only expected to be able to make one last visit, not that he'd hang on to it forever, I'm not that selfish. I am the oldest of the grandkids by at least 6 years and if I couldn't afford it then neither could the rest of them, I don't think we could've pooled resources and done it. He wasn't going to give us the friends and family discount. I just think he was a bit of a douche about considering he had to get our permission to sell and we could've been a royal PITA and weren't.
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Jun 1, 2012 14:18:14 GMT -5
Maybe that's what he was thinking though, Tina, that we expected him to hang on to it. God knows, my mom probably said something to that effect to him.
Buying another house when he said he couldn't keep up with 2 close together was just the icing on the cake.
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2kids10horses
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Post by 2kids10horses on Jun 1, 2012 16:35:30 GMT -5
skubikky... You are right! My mother is very difficult. Always has been. As a child, I didn't know. It wasn't until I went off to college that I was able to create enough "space" that I could see how she really was.
And it's not just me. She treats my sister worse.
She has quite a pessimestic view of the world. She used to never encourage my sister nor I to ever accomplish anything. Her reason was she didn't want us to be disapointed if we failed.
I played tennis as a youngster. She didn't want me to enter tournaments, because I might lose. Sure thing! I ignored her, and entered a lot of tournaments. Rarely won the tournament, but I won more matches than I lost.
Recently, she discouraged my daughter from trying to audition for music conservatories. Because, "She might not get in." Well, one thing is for certain: If she doesn't try, she won't get in. As it turned out, my daughter was accepted at two conservatories. But if my mother had had her way, she wouldn't have tried.
Her "fear of failure" overrode everything. I learned to ignore her. My sister never could.
Skubikki,
Would you want a mother like this: When I was 18, I entered Atlanta City Championships tennis tournament. There were 128 entries, I was seeded 3rd, I made it to the finals. I beat the first seed in the semis. I was playing a friend of mine in the finals, he was seeded 4th. The Tournament was at a tennis center only about 2 miles from our home.
My mother didn't come to watch. Her reason? "Oh, I was afraid you would lose." She never, ever once took time away from her Bridge Club or whatever to support me.
My sister was elected President of a large social club. Do you think my mother was proud? I don't know, maybe. But you know what she says to my sister? "You don't have any friends." So, I said, "If she didn't have any friends, how do you think she got elected President of the social club?" Her answer? "Because they felt sorry for her."
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Tred
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Post by Tred on Jun 1, 2012 17:49:23 GMT -5
"BTW Where was the family while she was moving out of the house?"
For those that think this is the "gotcha!" moment... My uncle lived in the same town as my grandmother, while all other family members lived several hundred miles away. The non-local family members made multiple trips to help organize her belongings while she was preparing to move out, but it was obviously easier for my uncle to help more frequently. Now that my grandmother lives in the same city as I do, I see her every week or two, and my uncle hasn't seen or talked to her in more than 10 years.
"Heirloom" may not be the right word to use, but it doesn't matter. Personally, I don't think something has to date back to the mid 1800's to be considered part of a family's history. I'm not losing any sleep over the situation, but I'll never be happy about how it played out. Different strokes, I guess.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 1, 2012 19:08:25 GMT -5
Well, I got most of my dads stuff out. Her husband was an ass but then again, he always was. I felt sorry for his son. But then again, his wife and her mother stole all my mothers good jewelry before I got there so I feel we are even now. I intend to sell or donate a large portion of my dads stuff. To keep peace and to get my stuff I told the stepson that I would leave it to him. Not happening. If he had returned my jewelry, then I would have. Now I have no honor.
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