two types of people with regard to the economy

[Abby Normal]

Jan 25, 2011 13:15:13 GMT -5 @horatiolegrand said:

I think it is too easy for the first type to see the second type as irresponsible people who took on too much debt or did not have enough savings./quote]

Sometimes they are right. I don't demonize them. I know several people that have been unemployed during this downturn. Some we prepared for it, and survived. Some continued spending like a drunken sailor and are still unemployed after two years.

I think there is a third type- those who still have jobs that are prepping for the worst.

[Bob Ross]

Some people actually profited from all of this.

[KaraBoo]

Depends on the person you're speaking to I guess.

DH and I are in the 1st group - good jobs, bought a house smaller than what we can afford, etc. However, we know several in the 2nd group and just by talking to them and seeing their actions - most of their problems do stem from things they have or haven't done (depending on the item in question).

I'll give you an example - we know a 35 year old woman that was fired from her job last March. We assumed she was receiving UE to scrape by, until she told us last month that she hadn't bothered applying for it because her mother (who lives in another state) and her sister (who lives in another town) are too busy to help her apply. When we asked why she just didn't go to the UE office herself or apply on-line at the library, we were given several excuses as to why those ideas weren't feasible for her. Her bottom line was that others weren't helping her enough and needed to help her more.

Is it that we don't have the ability to see how hard it is for her to succeed or the fact that it's beyond comprehension for us to understand why she's not trying at all?

[Cookies Galore]

There are many different types of people in regard to economic conditions. BF and I are renters and both lost jobs at one point, but we never ran the risk of not paying our rent. We didn't fall behind on anything, really. We also live in an area where housing wasn't hit by the economy, so home ownership is still out of our reach (but we'll get there).
My brother is the second type of person, though. He's hasn't been working steadily since last May, but it's the world's fault. It certainly isn't his fault that he totaled my Mom's car and feels that he doesn't have to do anything to pay her back.
You know what? My Mom is the second type as well. Everything that has ever happened to her has been because of her actions, but she thinks the world owes her something because it was tough raising three kids on her own (not including the $1,500 a month in child support and Dad paying for my braces, siblings sports teams, college, etc. .)

[KaraBoo]

Jan 25, 2011 13:41:57 GMT -5 @horatiolegrand said:

That the view I am responding too. They did everything right and deserve their good fortune. Those that lost deserve their problems.

The economy affects more then just money. It affects morale, it affects a person sense of almost everything.

While I can understand why you may infer that I believe we "did everything right", DH and I are far from those thoughts. We've been through our own trials and tribulations to get where we are. DH has been laid off several times (construction/install/programming trade) over the years and I'm lucky to be in the field I'm in (healthcare).

If the same woman in my example above had lost everything due to other circumstances beyond her control and was actively attempting to get work, any kind of work (not to mention UE), we would have much more sympathy for her. As it stands, we can only give her suggestions to help her on her way, we can't do the physical work for her (of just applying!).

[Sum Dum Gai]

I think what you see a lot of on money boards is the same affect you see when discussing welfare. I know that most people on welfare get off the programs within two years. I know that it's mostly a hand up to people that have fallen on hard times. I know that it helps a lot of kids that would otherwise be stuck in abusive marriages or be pretty much homeless with their single mothers. Even knowing all that though, the people (even if it's a small minority) that abuse those systems pisses me off something fierce.

I see the same thing when talking about the people in group 2. Most of them probably did make pretty decent choices. I'm sure they could have done better, we all could in hindsight, but for the most part they probably weren't a financial train wreck before the economy collapsed. The minority that were and whine about not getting enough help piss everybody off though. I know people that were making less than I do, who bought half a million dollar plus homes. They had crazy exotic loans. They had balances on their credit cards from unnecessary crap. They had little to no cash savings. I'm sorry, but I can only feel so bad for them when it all inevitably falls apart. There's just no way to service over half a million in debt and meet your living expenses on a sub six figure job with no savings. It was retarded to put yourself in that position, and I'm not going to lose sleep when you lose it all.

I do feel bad for those that were trying to do the right thing and got caught up in the economy. I really do. The stories about the really stupid ones tend to drown out the responsible ones though. And for the love of god pay attention to trends in your industry. If I hear one more news story about a manufacturing worker who's surprised when their job leaves the country... I swear to god. There's always some dumb quote, "I never thought it would happen to me." Those jobs have been leaving the country for over two damn decades. Unless you're deaf and blind, you should have realized it could happen to you and had some sort of backup plan. Frak.

[ihearyou2]

I don't think that there are really any groups there are degradations. The vast majority of people had either a freeze or a loss in either benefits or wages. I think there is only a question of how bad it got for you over the three year time period. A job loss is quite dramatic and does put things in a different light. I think most of the "I told you so's" that you see on YM are simply insecure and are looking for some rationale for why they still have a job and are monetarily viable. We as humans are always trying to control an environment of total uncertainty. The more we can pursuade ourselves that we are in control the more we create the illusion we need in order to get up every morning.

[Cookies Galore]

"Everything that has ever happened to her has been because of her actions, but she thinks the world owes her something."

Those are not the only type of people who are having a hard time.

Read more: notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=fun&action=display&thread=2283#ixzz1C4jvcKQd

I know, but she still annoys the crap out of me.

[Deleted]

Jan 25, 2011 13:56:38 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

The stories about the really stupid ones tend to drown out the responsible ones though.

This, I think, is the major issue. People usually will only hear the extremes and become dismissive (or desensitized) of all the others on both sides that are more to the middle. It's not an all or nothing, and bad shit happens to good people every day. On the flip side, you've still got people making horrible decisions and being rewarded.

[KaraBoo]

So, you're saying that my example isn't of the 2nd category? It seems like you're saying that those of us that have a job, paying bills, but not able to do much more than just tread water and that any major set-back will send us off the deep end are really the people in the 2nd category?

If that's the case, then DH and I are probably a couple of months away from that exact scenario - if one of us loses our job for an un-godly amount of time, or has a debilitating illness, or one of our kids has something catastrophic happen to them or any number of other things I can't think of right now. DH and I are the classic poster children of those that you are describing as being in the 2nd category.

It seems to me that most of the people you are saying are talking down to the situation you are in are actually in the same situation themselves (and may not realize it). I think the difference is in the person's outlook on life in general - IMHO. If you have a glass half empty attitude, then it may seem harder to find your way. If you have a glass half full attitude, then it may seem easier to find your way.

These observations are only based on my person experiences.

[jennml]

I am definitely in the apparently not well represented third group. I have a 50/50 mix of good and bad financial decisions to my credit and thank the powers that be for my stable employment. But all around me I see the effects of this economy. I don't look down on those who are down and out right now, since one little misstep could have landed me in that same position. I do look negatively upon those who haven't learned better. This recession has been on-going for a while already yet you still hear about people making the same bad financial decisions. If you can't learn from your mistakes then I have no sympathy to spare.

I do feel that some people not in the 1st group but who still have their jobs seem to have blinders on. They either don't understand what's happening or are refusing to accept it. I stress about my financial future all the time and have tried to educate myself as much as possible about what I should/shouldn't be doing. Regardless I acknowledge that even if I do everything "right" I could still wind up in a bad way. I just can't understand those who just complain about the hand they've been dealt but won't do anything to try and make the next hand better even if a little bit.

[Deleted]

I think that there is a HUGE percentage of people that pay their bills & then spend 105 to 125 percent of the money they have left to support the lifestyle that they want to have (but can't afford). They are one car repair, hospital visit, job loss or major purchase from declaring bankruptcy. When that one big expense comes up they will be able to list all of the reasons that it's someone else's fault that they had to declare bk (or just bad luck). I think there are a lot more of those people out there than the hard working people that did everything right but just lost their jobs. I've known people that one trip to the ER (for a cold, which they could have treated themselves) would have push them over the edge. Just my opinion.

[rileyoday]

Im neither type you metioned . I think you are correct.

[Cheesy FL-Vol]

This is an interesting thread. By Horatio's description, we fall into the 2nd category.

After a job loss at the end of 2008, having done my profession for 16 years, it was a real eye opener that there isn't anything else I am qualified for. I was making more than DH. We were on the brink of being able to make substantial dents in our debt when I got laid off. UE was only 20% of what I had been making, and working a min wage job was even less than that. I was able to supplement UE with some contract work. It still really was not enough. We made the difficult decision to clean out our retirement savings. We would have lost everything if we hadn't.

I am back to work as a part time employee with no benefits, but there is enough work for a 40 hour week right now. DH took a pay cut in 2006 to work where he is now, and never got a raise. When the company made pay cuts in 2008, they cut the regular workers 10% and mgmt 20%. We are not material, spendy people, but it still has been hard to basically tread water, and to date we have just managed, and right now we ARE one disaster away from financial disaster.

I am not posting for sympathy, it just is what it is, and I am working on my education, so I can make a career switch in the future.

[Miss Tequila]

Jan 25, 2011 13:15:13 GMT -5 @horatiolegrand said:

I think there are two types of people with respect to the economy. The first type has not lost their job, and was not been affected by the drop in stock price or home prices. They were in a situation where they did not need to sell their house or stocks, so the price drop was easier to accept. The second type of person affected by the bad economy lost his job and maybe needed money from investments or to sell the house.

I think many of the first type do not understand the situation of the second type. I think too many of those with jobs think they did everything right and the second type of people did many things wrong. I think it is too easy for the first type to see the second type as irresponsible people who took on too much debt or did not have enough savings.Maybe they think of them as those who took out liar loans or did not understand the ramifications of loan rates. The first type often demonizes the second type as somehow deserving the problems they have.

I dont think people with jobs really realize how hard it is to go forward in a good way without a good job. Many people might have made good microeconomic choices and been caught up in macroeconomic problems.

That is my opinion for what it is worth.

note to mods, please dont move this to ym

I'm not sure what group I'm in. My husband and I both have our jobs, though I haven't had a raise in two years (husband's bonuses and raises have not been impacted).

I wasn't forced to sell my house but it was on top of a dangerous mountain and I couldn't handle another winter. I lost $70K when I sold. However, because I have lived far below my means since I was old enough to earn money, I still walked away from my house sale with six figures in cash, which I then used to start buying houses in Florida that were severely affected by the housing crisis (a house I am closing on this week I got for $70K, it sold in 2005 for $245K!).

I am now in a position that if I lose my job, it just won't matter. But I worked my ass off to get myself to this position. No, I won't be rich if I become unemployed (I am not claiming to be WCP!) but I can pay all of my bills without working for at least the next 5 or so years.

I admit that I have a hard time having sympathy for people who have lived the high life since their first job. Why should I bail someone out because they were too materialistic to save and invest like I did?


ETA: I just re-read my post and it came out harsher than I intended. I am not naive enough to think that something bad couldn't have happened to me along the way (or that a major illness couldn't wipe me out), but there are some people that didn't even attempt to prepare and save. That describes most of my family. It really pisses me off.

[Frugal Nurse]

My DH lost his job in March '09 but we weren't really affected by it. He got unemployment and mowed lawns to make up the difference. He was out of work for exactly four weeks before he found another full-time job. this job pays more than his last and has much better benefits, and is not likely to be going anywhere. One of his benefits is 12 free hours of tuition per year, so he is using that to get some more specified education in medical billing and coding (he's currently got a BA in English), just in case he needs something else to fall back on. We weathered that storm because DH is a wonderful, responsible man who did what he had to do to make sure the bills were paid, and because we had some savings to fall back on, with little debt. Our home value has dropped slightly, but I don't care, because we are staying put for a few more years.

I don't think it is as black and white as "some people lost their jobs and then lost everything" and "other people weren't affected at all and can't possibly understand" In our case, we prepared for the worst, just in case that happened. When it did happen, we did quick damage control (The day after he was laid off, we canceled cable and gym memberships, started eating very low-budget meals, stopped all discretionary spending.) We did not keep living as though everything would be ok, we went into survival mode and, well, we survived. When DH was looking for a new job, he was humble enough to realize that he'd have to branch out into different areas of work than he wanted to do. He found a good fit, and looking back, it wasn't such a bad time (at the time it felt horrible..I had just quit my high-paying job to go to nursing school, then 2 months later..BAM..DH lost his job).

[rovo]

two types of people with regard to the economy

Yup. There are the doers, those that accomplish things, even the difficult things, and there are those that wait for others to do things for them.

[Peace Of Mind]

I've noticed 3 types too. The ones that never lost their jobs, although there may have been some changes, they had a strong EF and retirement accounts and were not affected; The ones that sincerely have been dealt a blow that no large EF could sustain them; and the ones with or without a job who lived so close to the edge nothing would help them.

Don't get my started on the speculators. They are a 4th category with a mix of the above.

[Deleted]

I don't understand that reply. How, two years into a deep recession, are some people just one problem away from financial disaster? You think they just have been lucky so far? Horatio even 2 years into a recession a lot of people have never lost their jobs & some of those same people haven't changed the way they are living. BTW I know no one that has lost a job because of the recession. There are some places that haven't really been hurt. I would think the ones on the brink would have fallen long long ago. Not as long as they can still make the payments.
I think you are one of those who for whatever reason can not see the economy, as a whole, as contributing. Gee that's what I was thinking about you. You see whats around you but not the parts of the country that haven't been hurt. I think you see things in hindsight. Nope I'm talking about now. If it had of been Medicare or social security That failed and you were affected deeply, you would not be so judgmental, but could see bad things happen to all kinds. If Medicare, social security, & mine & my wife's paycheck ended TODAY. I could still pay off my house, pay the monthly bills, buy food, & continue to do that for the next (figuring it up) 4 years. It's called living within your means & planning. I still say that a lot of people don't do either of those things Heratio. I also get upset when people on welfare spend more money per month on food than we do (& we eat pretty good).

[Deleted]

Jan 25, 2011 22:08:35 GMT -5 @oldtex said:

Horatio even 2 years into a recession a lot of people have never lost their jobs & some of those same people haven't changed the way they are living. BTW I know no one that has lost a job because of the recession. There are some places that haven't really been hurt.

I agree!

My house has NOT dropped in price, but then it was not overinflated in the first place.
Unemployment here is below the national average. In fact, several businesses within five miles of me have jobs unfilled.
Foreclosures are low here, because our local banks did not dole out money willy-nilly.
etc
etc
etc

[Deleted]

My house has NOT dropped in price, but then it was not overinflated in the first place.

LuAnn's right about the cost of housing. Our area increased much slower than those places where the big drops happened. Five years ago I was able to get it for a great price. Then about 3 years ago prices zoomed. They have dropped back some since then but I could still sell it for double (plus some) what I paid for ours. Part of that was taking my time & getting the right house in the right area & I'll admit that part of it was luck. The main part was that the people in this area aren't speculators. They never drove the prices up (new businesses coming in & making the town grow did that). My question is: Why didn't people see this coming? We lived in CA for a couple of years & I could see that housing was over priced. I would have never paid that much for that little of a house. The amount of income needed to make those payment (for the average person) was outrageous & it was not a sustainable rate of increase.

[Deleted]

I dont think people with jobs really realize how hard it is to go forward in a good way without a good job. Many people might have made good microeconomic choices and been caught up in macroeconomic problems.

Just something that I learned a long time ago. You really can't control how much you make but you should be able to control both what you spend & how much you have left.

I think many of the first type do not understand the situation of the second type.

I think that a lot of the first type understood & maybe even prepared for the loss of a job. They had lived thru recessions before & I believe a lot of them were prepared for what was to come (or maybe they are like me & hope for the best but prepare for the worst).

[olderburgher]

When thinking about just two types you are locking yourself into a mindset which is not conducive to looking outside that"box". We need to see not only black and white and all shades of gray but also the shades of blue, pink and green. This and so many other problems is not an us verses them situation.
I thank God we have had good fortune to own our own home, to avoid get rich quick schemes, to have children who are employed, to have a roof over our heads and to have food to eat. We try to look out for them and help others who haven't had the kind of good fortune we have had. It isn't easy to be in what you call Group 2 and too many people in Group 1 forget that or have never experienced it. Hopefully they never will and those in Group 2 will pull themselves out of their situation. I will help those who are trying to do so and those who aren't and I'll be glad I can do so.

[Deleted]

It is one of the odd facts of life for me that my personal fortunes always seem to go opposite of the general population. I know it is an odd kind of luck. But I think that is what some people that were doing well before this recession got caught in. They did not acknowledge any level of luck and were taken completely by shock when the luck portion turned against them and all their "right decisions" did them little good.

[Gardening Grandma]

As retirees, we've been pretty much unaffected by the economy (other than watching the bumps in our IRA accounts). But I feel the pain of friends and relatives who've lost jobs, are underwater on their homes, and are otherwise struggling. I don't think we fit into either category.

[Deleted]

Are you surprised that I base my view on the economy on what I see? I think you base your view on what Larry Kudlow says on CNBC. I think you have a partisan economic view. Pro-business all the way,No Horatio I'm also basing it on what I see. I stated the facts that I see around me. Oh & I only vaguely know who Kudlow is but you are right about me being pro- business. Business hiring people is what will get us out of this & into recovery. The government can't do it because they get their money to hire from us, the people & trying to pay for your own job thru taxes doesn't work.
What parts of the country have not been hurt, as far as the construction industry?
Construction may affect you but it doesn't always affect everybody. The construction industry is not only seasonal but also has boom & bust cycle, possibly more than most industries. Added to that it can be very regional too.
The only places that I have known of the last year or two was in Texas and LA. Both places pay less then $20 an hour. When you figure in out of town and travel expenses, the pay is terrible.
Yes, I'm in Central Texas & 2 to 3 years ago we actually had a construction boom when our town grew. Yes our wages are low (I think 20 per hour is higher than we pay here) but our cost of living is much cheaper. If you choose to live in a HCOL area & make the big pay checks & also pay more taxes & have a higher cost of living then more power to you. But you have to understand that by doing that it limits you as far as traveling to where the jobs are. It's still your choice though.
You seem to be saying that the economy as a whole does not impact the fate of a person, personal drive can overcome anything. That, too me, seems just stupid.
Of course the economy can impact people but making bad choices can impact people a lot more. Oh & I do believe that personal drive can overcome a lot. Making excuses why the economy is against you & your not succeeding to me is stupid. (& that's not directed at you personally BTW, just a general statement. I've know people that use every excuse in the book for not succeeding no matter what the economy does).
The difference is that I don't want to get by, I want to get ahead and to get ahead it is a lot easier in a good economy.
There are a lot of ways to get ahead. Not putting yourself in a risky situation is one that I always go with. My opinion is that a lot of people with drive to make money take to much risk & then fail to often because of that risk. To few people (but some do) win in those situations.
I am saying "F you" to all those who seem to be saying "f you, its your own fault" to people like me who are having money struggles.
Horatio my comments weren't directed at you personal, they were just a general statement of what I'm seeing. Although I vaguely know what got you in financial trouble to make an informed statement about where you went wrong (or even if you did something wrong, because you may not have given the circumstances) would take hours (or even days) to go over facts of exactly what happened & of course that's not going to happen. Right now I know 2 people that I would say "F you" it's your own fault because they did make poor financial decisions & it's because of those that they are where they are. I know NOBODY on these boards well enough to even come close to saying that to. Your response comes across as you defending yourself because I'm attacking you, which I'm not. Oh & I would also add that I view money struggles as a normal fact of life. I look at them as a challenge to overcome, not as a great tragedy. Having been able to get food stamps (which I didn't do) for the first 12 years of my career I do know a little something about struggling with money.

[KaraBoo]

Horatio - you state you're struggling because of new construction slowing down - is that correct?

My husband also started out in the construction business as an electrician's helper. He helped run the wire, install ceiling fan, etc making around $8.00 when he started (around 15 years ago). He quickly saw that unless he wanted to get licensed, he wouldn't get anywhere in that field.

Because of the experience wiring houses, he was able to hire on with a fire alarm company pulling wire for them. After a year or so of being a helper, he started getting his foot further in the door by asking questions and helping with more things. He studied and received his Fire Alarm Technician's license to be able to install the systems and continued to Level II. He now makes over $20 per hour with the opportunity to make much more if he continues his education. He's admitted being lazy and not wanting to take the tests to go to the next level because it starts going into supervisory positions or design (which means being stuck in the office all day) - neither of which he wants to do.

Is there a similar route you could take with your construction experience? If you're a roofer, could you get hired on as an insurance appraiser for storm damage? I'm sure there are other areas that might similarly tranfer over to other jobs, I just can't think of any at the moment.

And yes, sometimes seeing the glass as half full really does make a difference.

[Deleted]

I don't understand your view at all. What part of what I say do you disagree with? I am saying the glass is half empty, you are saying it is half full. Is that the difference?

Horatio in my first post all I was saying is that there is a 3rd category of people (& a lot of them), the ones that did it to themselves & even if they haven't gone under because of something related to the economy, they are on the edge & could go under still. Those are the type of people that I see around here. If you asked them I'm sure that they would say that they went under because of the economic slow down but that would just be an excuse for their own poor planning or inability to control their spending. Thinking about the poor planning part of that I just added a 3rd person that I know.
As an example. I knew someone once that had to declare bk (according to them) because they had to replace a blown engine in a car & couldn't. Well it turns out that they couldn't get a loan (poor credit & they had maxed out their debt to income ratio). So the solution that they came up with was just to not go to work with the obvious result. Bad spending habits plus a bad credit history plus some very poor decisions along the way & it end in bk. Again according to them the bk was caused by a blown engine which was totally an excuse used for the purpose of them not excepting blame for their actions. The same thing applies to 2 other people that I know that declared bk. It was someone else's fault or bad luck, bla bla. Failure to be a responsible adult is what I'm seeing. (Same is true of my BIL. Not his fault that he ended up going bk after all he needed $300,000 of toys for the family to make them happy). Of course if I were located in another section of the country (like Detroit for instance) I might be seeing something totally different.
In short I was saying that there was a least 1 more class of people that were in trouble because of something they did (& those are the one's that we see around here because the economy isn't bad here).

[Mad Dawg Wiccan]

<<Easy to say get an education but in what and for some it just isn't something they can do.>>


There is also no guarantee that even if you do "get an education" in a particular field that opportunities will still be available when you complete it. I got my degree in Electronics in 1984, at the height of the market for this industry. Less than a year later, the bottom had dropped out of the market and people with BS Degrees in Electronic Engineering were working on assembly lines, stuffing parts into printed circuit boards for $7.50 an hour because that was all that was available.