Do you think minimum wages increase unemployment

[Deleted]

amongst youth and minorities?

Thomas Sowell had an op-ed article where he argued that

We have gotten so used to seeing unemployment rates of 30 or 40 percent for black teenage males that it might come as a shock to many people to learn that the unemployment rate for 16- and 17-year-old black males was just under 10 percent back in 1948. Moreover, it was slightly lower than the unemployment rate for white males of the same age.

How could this be?

The economic reason is quite plain. The inflation of the 1940s had pushed money wages for even unskilled, entry-level labor above the level specified in the minimum wage law passed 10 years earlier. In other words, there was in practical effect no national minimum wage law in the late 1940s.

Liberals were of course appalled that the federal minimum wage law had lagged so far behind inflation – and, in 1950, they began a series of escalations of the minimum wage level over the years.

It was in the wake of these escalations that black teenage unemployment rose to levels that were three or four times the level in 1948. Even in the most prosperous years of later times, the unemployment rate for black teenage males was some multiple of what it was even in the recession year of 1949. And now it was often double the unemployment rate for white males of the same ages

Nor are such consequences of minimum wage laws peculiar to blacks or to the United States. In Western European countries whose social policies liberals consider more "advanced" than our own, including more generous minimum wage laws and other employer-mandated benefits, it has been common in even prosperous years for unemployment rates among young people to be 20 percent or higher.

The economic reason is not complicated. When you set minimum wage levels higher than many inexperienced young people are worth, they don't get hired. It is not rocket science.

It's depressing to think that African-American youth unemployment has gone up after the civil rights era.

Do you buy his argument?

The full article is here:
www.ocregister.com/opinion/wage-339257-minimum-unemployment.html

[Deleted]

But why would an African American teenage boy not be worth minimum wage, when apparently a white teenage boy is? I think there is something else at play. Maybe transportation to where the jobs are?

[formerroomate99]

In my area, it is almost impossible to find a job that pays less than a dollar or two over minimum wage, so it seems unlikely that minimum wage laws are a factor here. I think transportation issues and the way certain people are perceived is more of an issue than minimum wage laws. I can't speak about what was going on in the 1950's or 60's.

The thing you also have to ask yourself is what kind of jobs were these black teenagers doing in 1948, and would a teenager be allowed to do those jobs today? Child labor laws have gotten more strict in the last 60 years.

[jkapp]

I think its more than just the level of minimum wage, there probably plenty of factors that take part in this. The study doesn't mention whether the youth did have a job and lost it; in other words, it doesn't tell what their work ethics are. And for some reason many youths believe a McJob is somehow beneath them. I found this more in girls when I was younger...they found employment at fast food places reprehensible, they either had a job working at a clothing store or working a register somewhere and they refused to work anything else.

[Bluerobin]

Minimum wage has been left in the dust. If you are paying it, you want for workers. It just is not a realistic wage.

[fairlycrazy23]

Thomas Sowell is right, he is almost always right.

[formerroomate99]

Transportation is a huge issue. In 1948, most decent sized cities had wonderful public transit systems that made owning a car unnecessary. Dismantling those systems has put an enormous burden on poor folks and teenagers.

The other big issue is how people are perceived. Most jobs teenagers can get today are in retail, and retail is all about image. All other things being equal, retailers are going to choose the employees that their customers are most comfortable with.

[fairlycrazy23]

Feb 8, 2012 11:33:25 GMT -5 @toughtimes said:

There is always a wage at which hiring becomes popular.

There is always a wage where employment becomes unpopular.

[formerroomate99]

But why would an African American teenage boy not be worth minimum wage, when apparently a white teenage boy is? I think there is something else at play.

Work ethic and honesty, or at least employer's preconception about those things.

Whether or not customers are comfortable with black employees.

Accents. Some accents are hard to understand or have a bad connotation.

[cme1201]

TT,

Enough with equating everything to Nazism.

cme1201 - Moderator P&M

[fairlycrazy23]

Why should the government prevent someone for working for less than minimum wage , if the person is willing to work for less than minimum wage?

[cme1201]

Feb 8, 2012 11:47:46 GMT -5 @toughtimes said:

Certainly. I aim to please. How about if we adopt the system the Brits used? That is the one where they charged rent to peasants to work their own land. I think Chase and Wells Fargo and all the modern American banks are achieving this one via foreclosure. It certainly works for me.

Have you ever heard of share croppers?

Living, working, tilling the land then giving 1/2 to the person who owned the land, also paying a "rent" fee for when the land didn't preform.

This is what My family comes from, we had it here why would we need to look outside America?

Get real.

[Bluerobin]

In the 40's and 50's public transportation wasn't the reason for higher employment. Most people could walk to their jobs. Transportation was about as poor as it is today.
So you folks who want to pay less than minimum wage, how difficult is it to find employees?

[formerroomate99]

TT, we're talking about teenagers here, not adults. They aren't paying any rent. And frankly, if you're working for spending money instead of rent money, then any wage is better than nothing.

Another issue is how many of these unemployed teenagers actually did any serious job hunting. It's not like somebody is going to show up at your door and offer you a job.

[formerroomate99]

Feb 8, 2012 11:53:57 GMT -5 Bluerobin said:

In the 40's and 50's public transportation wasn't the reason for higher employment. Most people could walk to their jobs. Transportation was about as poor as it is today.
So you folks who want to pay less than minimum wage, how difficult is it to find employees?

That sure as heck isn't the case in my town. In my grandmother's time, there was a wonderful streetcar system and she was able to go all over town without any problems. Today, the city is much more spread out and the public transit system is a shadow of what it used to be. From what I hear, many cities had wonderful public transit systems that were dismantled in the 1960's and 70's.

[fairlycrazy23]

Feb 8, 2012 11:57:08 GMT -5 @toughtimes said:

Blue robin, you are asking the wrong question. After all, it is only about what level of wage will create full employment of everyone, every time. No matter how depraved the living conditions nor how indecently the workers are treated, nothing matters but that. So my feeling is how can we best unwind 2000 years of effete Judeo-Christian conditioning so that we can create conditions for the truly modern economy.

That makes no sense what so ever.

[Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ]

Feb 8, 2012 12:12:26 GMT -5 @toughtimes said:

You see people will think I am just being a smart-ass and I am, but I don't want to argue the point anymore. I want people to see for themselves that there is no bottom. There is always prison labor, there is always people born into the lowest caste system and stuck there by prejudice. There are always ways to undermine people and steal what they have legitimately worked for and put them right there on square one. I am tired of deifying businessmen. Life is a give and take.

No one said life was fair, it is not fair... you may not like it, but life is what it is.

[zibazinski]

Not even beginning teenage workers get minimum wage, so no, I do not believe that it means diddly about employment.

[formerroomate99]

Right, left, center, who would not agree that a minimum wage reduces jobs. Any wage at all does that.

I see your point. I have to wonder if there is a way to get a 'foot in the door' for underpriviliged kids. Figuring out how to get and keep a job has to be hard for a kid with no successful mentors who is growing up in a culture where hard work is not valued.

[Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ]

www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/chinas-cabinet-promises-annual-minimum-wage-rise-of-13-percent-through-2015-more-jobs/2012/02/08/gIQADKhVyQ_story.html

China’s Cabinet promises annual minimum wage rise of 13 percent through 2015, more jobs

By Associated Press, Updated: Wednesday, February 8, 5:49 AM

BEIJING — China’s government is promising to raise minimum wages by 13 percent a year through 2015 and launch measures to generate 45 million new jobs.

The goals were included in a Cabinet employment plan issued Wednesday.

The communist government faces pressure to spread China’s prosperity more widely and narrow a yawning gap between a wealthy elite and the poor majority. Beijing froze wages to help companies stay competitive after the 2008 global crisis but more recently has boosted minimum wages.

The Cabinet plan promises tax breaks and other aid to small companies and to workers who want to start their own businesses.

Copyright 2012 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

[workpublic]

China’s Cabinet promises annual minimum wage rise of 13 percent through 2015, more jobs

that won't help black teenage unemployment.

TT,
It's not "the man" who is keeping teenagers from working, it's the teenager's attitudes and the lack of "teenager's" jobs that a minimum wage causes. Maybe the minimum wage should only be for folks over 21?

[Sum Dum Gai]

I really think TT is on to something here. Sure, getting rid of minimum wage is a good first step, but let's go whole hog and bring back slavery. Cheapest labor on the planet. Let's see China compete with that! Yeah, suck it buddy, with your sweatshop laborers. We're going all the way back to slavery. If you want a race to the bottom we're winning that bitch. You should have asked the Reds about starting races with America. We don't play!

[Phoenix84]

Yes, minimum wage almost certainly increases unemployment. A fundamental question we have to ask as a soceity is do we want a lot of people employed at lower wages/benefits, or few people employed at high wages/benefits. You can't have both..

It's not just minimum wage, it's everything. We need jobs, and yet the government all types or rules and regulations on employers. From minimum wages, to providing health care, down to needing to provide locations to breast feed or pump. Why should a business hire Americans with all these regulations and costs associated with them?

[Phoenix84]

"I really think TT is on to something here. Sure, getting rid of minimum wage is a good first step, but let's go whole hog and bring back slavery. Cheapest labor on the planet. Let's see China compete with that! Yeah, suck it buddy, with your sweatshop laborers. We're going all the way back to slavery. If you want a race to the bottom we're winning that bitch. You should have asked the Reds about starting races with America. We don't play!"

Perhaps it's a "race the bottem." But wheather it's good or not, it's going to happen. We need to accept that it's going to happen and is happening. We can try to fight it, but the "race to the bottem" is going to happen. What we need to spend our energy on is how to overcome it?

I'm no expert, but if you want more money and a higher standard of living, you need to offer better products/services than your cheaper rivals. As a country, that's what we should be focusing on if we want to keep our high standard of living. We need to provide services/products that are better, more efficient, and valued higher. I think education is the key in the future economy. Anyone can work in a sweat ship, but how many people can repair and calibrate the advanced robotics needed for manufacturing?

[Sum Dum Gai]

But wheather it's good or not, it's going to happen. We need to accept that it's going to happen and is happening. We can try to fight it, but the "race to the bottem" is going to happen.

It doesn't have to happen. Put a massive tariff on imported goods. If other countries want to undercut us on labor we can smack them with high taxes that eliminate their competitive advantage. They'd retaliate obviously, which would basically shut down American exporting, but it would also lead to a ton of manufacturing jobs being brought back to the US.

We chose to let our jobs leave. We can choose to bring them back. Both choices come with consequences, obviously, but they're still choices.

[Deleted]

Topic: Do you think minimum wages increase unemployment

In general I would say yes. As the minimum wage increase the number of "questionable" jobs would go away. (questionable meaning that they weren't needed to do business but extra).

As far as it being broken down by race, I think that more info would have been gained by breaking it down by area. Urban & rural areas might reflect more telling info.

[jkapp]

There are always ways to undermine people and steal what they have legitimately worked for and put them right there on square one.

Wait, are you taking about corporations now or government?

[jkapp]

Feb 8, 2012 14:12:16 GMT -5 @toughtimes said:

Does it matter? Do you wanted to be R@ped from the front or the back. Which violation do you prefer?

hey, if I'm going to get screwed they should at least have the decency to look me in the face

[Sum Dum Gai]

hey, if I'm going to get screwed they should at least have the decency to look me in the face

No, no, no. If I don't have a choice on getting screwed, I would at least choose not to have to watch the bastard enjoy it.

[formerroomate99]

Feb 8, 2012 15:06:01 GMT -5 @toughtimes said:

Either we are going to have to figure out how to create more high value products or we may have to judiciously implement tariffs. No one can out-compete free labor and that is what a lot of Chinese are.

Hey, if energy prices keep going up, importing stuff from halfway around the world is going to become more expensive.