We are going in the wrong direction.

[djAdvocate]

Feb 4, 2012 16:25:23 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney broke with GOP conservatives this week, renewing his call for automatic federal minimum wage increases to keep up with inflation.

President Obama has backed raising the U.S. basic wage from its current $7.25 an hour to $9.50 and indexing future automatic increases to inflation. Many economists cite a growing divide between rich and poor.www.usatoday.com/money/economy/income/story/2012-02-02/raising-minimum-wage/52940286/1

How can doing this, in any way, improve the economy?
Do people really believe that prices for EVERYONE won't go up to compensate for these wage increases?

a viable middle class is absolutely essential to the fortunes of America. but it surprises me that Romney suggests this. minimum wage is the third rail for the anarchocapitalists out there.

[djAdvocate]

Feb 4, 2012 16:40:12 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

DJ, what do you mean by third rail?

that is urban terminology. the two rails are what the train runs on. the third one supplies the power. stepping on the third rail is generally considered to be a death sentence.

[Deleted]

It's a saying that comes from how subway lines work. If you step on the third rail you are electrecuted and die instantly.

ETA - dj beat me to it.

[djAdvocate]

by the way- someone on this board pointed out that something considerably less than 10% of all wage earners make minimum wage. so although there would be some inflationary impact, it is probably considerably less than most people would imagine (myself included).

[Deleted]

"How can doing this, in any way, improve the economy? Do people really believe that prices for EVERYONE won't go up to compensate for these wage increases?"

I'll tell you how it would help. It would prevent the Democrats from using the minimum wage as a means to vilify evil Republicans and endear themselves to the poor every time they need a boost in the polls.

Wages over the long-run have always grown faster than inflation. So indexing the minimum wage to inflation will not do a whole lot economically.

------------------------------------------------
"by the way- someone on this board pointed out that something considerably less than 10% of all wage earners make minimum wage."

Before the recession it was more like 1%. And that was mostly seniors, teenagers, and people who also earn tips.

[djAdvocate]

Feb 4, 2012 16:54:24 GMT -5 @investorbob said:

"How can doing this, in any way, improve the economy? Do people really believe that prices for EVERYONE won't go up to compensate for these wage increases?"

I'll tell you how it would help. It would prevent the Democrats from using the minimum wage as a means to vilify evil Republicans and endear themselves to the poor every time they need a boost in the polls.

Wages over the long-run have always grown faster than inflation. So indexing the minimum wage to inflation will not do a whole lot economically.

------------------------------------------------
"by the way- someone on this board pointed out that something considerably less than 10% of all wage earners make minimum wage."

Before the recession it was more like 1%. And that was mostly seniors, teenagers, and people who also earn tips.

thanks, ib. i was shocked at how low it was.

[djAdvocate]

Feb 4, 2012 16:50:01 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

Okay. So how is it that minimum wage is the death sentence for the anarcho capitalists?
'splain it to me, Lucy.

i just think that advocating something this far from "free market capitalism" is unwise for a Republican. i happen to agree with him on this subject- but i suspect that i am in a very small minority.

[Don Perignon]

Many jobs pay slightly more than absolute minimum wage, but "Minimum wage" + $.05 per hour isn't all that different a creature.
For every "minimum wage" job, there are several more that pay less than minimum wage + 10%.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Feb 4, 2012 16:25:23 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney broke with GOP conservatives this week, renewing his call for automatic federal minimum wage increases to keep up with inflation.

President Obama has backed raising the U.S. basic wage from its current $7.25 an hour to $9.50 and indexing future automatic increases to inflation. Many economists cite a growing divide between rich and poor.www.usatoday.com/money/economy/income/story/2012-02-02/raising-minimum-wage/52940286/1

How can doing this, in any way, improve the economy?
Do people really believe that prices for EVERYONE won't go up to compensate for these wage increases?

I guess this is his plan to deal with record youth unemployment.

[zibazinski]

I know of no company, even retail and fast food, who pay just minimum wage.

[Deleted]

"For every "minimum wage" job, there are several more that pay less than minimum wage + 10%."

Data please, not just assumptions.

[djAdvocate]

Feb 5, 2012 0:00:30 GMT -5 Don Perignon said:

Many jobs pay slightly more than absolute minimum wage, but "Minimum wage" + $.05 per hour isn't all that different a creature.
For every "minimum wage" job, there are several more that pay less than minimum wage + 10%.

you might be right. raising the bar 20% might put a LOT of people at minimum wage.

[usaone]

Feb 4, 2012 16:25:23 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney broke with GOP conservatives this week, renewing his call for automatic federal minimum wage increases to keep up with inflation.

President Obama has backed raising the U.S. basic wage from its current $7.25 an hour to $9.50 and indexing future automatic increases to inflation. Many economists cite a growing divide between rich and poor.www.usatoday.com/money/economy/income/story/2012-02-02/raising-minimum-wage/52940286/1

How can doing this, in any way, improve the economy?
Do people really believe that prices for EVERYONE won't go up to compensate for these wage increases?

What % of the American workforce make minimum wage? In my area even 16 year old new hires at Mc Donalds are paid a little more than minimum wage.

[formerexpat]

President Obama has backed raising the U.S. basic wage from its current $7.25 an hour to $9.50 and indexing future automatic increases to inflation. Many economists cite a growing divide between rich and poor.http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/income/story/2012-02-02/raising-minimum-wage/52940286/1

This just ensures that the middle class slips back to be closer to poor.

This is a huge raise to the under 20 crowd that largely make up the minimum wage population...for the first 6 months they're on the job.

[usaone]

When was the last time minimum wage was increased? Did it affect the economy?

How will a handful of teenagers working for minimum wage sink the 10's of Millions of middle class Americans?

[formerexpat]

When was the last time minimum wage was increased? Did it affect the economy?

How will a handful of teenagers working for minimum wage sink the 10's of Millions of middle class Americans?

I'm afraid it's going to take more time than I'm willing to spend with you to explain basic economics.

The last increase was in May 2007, which increased minimum wage by $2.10 to $7.25 over a 2 year period. Tough to tell how it affected the economy but there are a ton of young people unemployed right now...how many due to companies not believing they're worth the extra $2 an hour?

Here are the stats on minimum wage.

www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2010.htm

Maybe the next move will be the SEIU calling for servers to make minimum wage instead of relying on the best servers getting better tips.

That will suck for the guy who served us at a nice restaurant and got a $40 tip earlier this week...just on our table; add in another 5 tables that he was waiting on that night, I'm sure he can't wait to exchange that for a $9.50 wage.

[djAdvocate]

Feb 5, 2012 15:36:45 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

Feb 5, 2012 14:07:20 GMT -5 usaone said:

When was the last time minimum wage was increased? Did it affect the economy?

How will a handful of teenagers working for minimum wage sink the 10's of Millions of middle class Americans?

I'm no expert, so all I can tell you is what I am seeing from our end.
Everytime MW goes up, our family's businesses must raise the wages of everyone from the starter MW employees to the higher paid managers.
This takes a huge chunk of an already tight profit.
Soooo, we raise prices which are passed on to EVERYONE. People on fixed incomes will now pay more for our product.
Multiply this times all the businesses and everyone ends up with less money in their pockets.

i was with you until the last sentence. everyone EXCEPT the poor has less money in their pockets.

[usaone]

Feb 5, 2012 15:36:45 GMT -5 @lonewolf said:

Feb 5, 2012 14:07:20 GMT -5 usaone said:

When was the last time minimum wage was increased? Did it affect the economy?

How will a handful of teenagers working for minimum wage sink the 10's of Millions of middle class Americans?

I'm no expert, so all I can tell you is what I am seeing from our end.
Everytime MW goes up, our family's businesses must raise the wages of everyone from the starter MW employees to the higher paid managers.
This takes a huge chunk of an already tight profit.
Soooo, we raise prices which are passed on to EVERYONE. People on fixed incomes will now pay more for our product.
Multiply this times all the businesses and everyone ends up with less money in their pockets. However, because more money is being rung up in sales and employees are getting paid more, the government is receiving more in taxes. So wouldn't it make sense that it's the government who is asking for wage increases?
Explain to me if I'm wrong.

I own a small business and have worked for many others. I have never seen that happen.

[usaone]

We don't give raises when minimum wage goes up.

[Don Perignon]

In "the good old days" the help never dared to demand wage increases.
Conservatives, by their very nature, seek to return to "the good old days".
Well, "the good old days" may have been good for Robber Barons and Plantation Owners, but they weren't so swell for the peasants on whose backs their empires were built.

[Deleted]

"Conservatives, by their very nature, seek to return to "the good old days"."

Somehow I doubt you are really that narrow-minded. Please refrain from making such false statements.

----------------------------------------------------

"So what happens when your second tier is getting paid the same as your starters? No uprising?"

Someone did a "study" about how little it would cost Walmart (and therefore its customers) if they simply paid all their employees a "living wage" of $12/hr. First, I bet a lot of the employees were already making $12/hr or more (they didn't give any stats on what store employees actually make). Second, they acted as if there would be no consequenses if they raised the wages of a guy who just started to be the same as someone who, say, had been working their for 2yrs to actually earn that higher wage. Things don't happen in a vacuum. If you only raise wages of those at the bottom, you totally remove any incentive to be a productive, loyal employee that sticks around for a long time.

Of course, like I said, though, very few people earn the minimum wage these days. So I don't see simply indexing it to inflation presenting this problem. Wages already tend to grow at least at that rate, anyway.

[reasonfreedom]

Feb 5, 2012 22:56:32 GMT -5 Don Perignon said:

In "the good old days" the help never dared to demand wage increases.
Conservatives, by their very nature, seek to return to "the good old days".
Well, "the good old days" may have been good for Robber Barons and Plantation Owners, but they weren't so swell for the peasants on whose backs their empires were built.

I guess you would know this from experience yes?

[rockon]

While no one can truly define every effect of having or raising a minimum wage because of all the variables in an economy at any given point in time we do know that for better or worse it is not really a component of a true free market system. We also could make an educated guess that in a global trade environment wages will have to become closer to equal or more jobs will go to the lower wage country. It would be my best guess that while it may not be a large number we will lose at least some jobs a a result of this size of an increase and I would also guess that we while it may also not be a large number the consumer probably would see at least some increase in products because of it.
Like most things there are some positive things about making sure every working person receives a wage that is sufficient for them to live without assistance but one has to really be careful so you don't chase more jobs out of the country or raise the the cost of goods and negate the benefit and loss the jobs at the same time.
I know many here don't buy trickle up or down economics but I believe like some who have posted here that in the past Minimum Wage raises tends to move wages all the way up the scale which may cause more negative impact right now then it would look like at first glance. The only way to avoid some of this impact would be if we moved towards what some will refer to as protectionism but I prefer to call fair and common sense trade agreements.

[rockon]

I think that is a fair statement. I believe there are an infinite amount of positions between capitalism and other forms of societies and I also believe we are now somewhere further from an ideal society then we were several decades ago. And I should add moving away faster then I have ever witnessed.

[djAdvocate]

Feb 6, 2012 9:51:21 GMT -5 rockon said:

I think that is a fair statement. I believe there are an infinite amount of positions between capitalism and other forms of societies and I also believe we are now somewhere further from an ideal society then we were several decades ago. And I should add moving away faster then I have ever witnessed.

we have the tendency to dichotomize in the US, and it is pretty useless when it comes to sociology. it is not capitalism OR socialism, but both. no system is purely either. the balance is for each society to decide.

[jkapp]

Feb 4, 2012 16:48:09 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

by the way- someone on this board pointed out that something considerably less than 10% of all wage earners make minimum wage. so although there would be some inflationary impact, it is probably considerably less than most people would imagine (myself included).

But what it does do is increase the number of people eligible for welfare, since welfare is tied to the level of minimum wage. So the the only people forced to get raises are at minimum wage, and no one above minimum wage gets such a forced raise, then everyone else's wages would end up being devalued. And the number of people considered in "poverty" and eligible for welfare would increase.

This is why I do not support Mitt...he is not conservative, he is just another liberal tax and spender. He has the liberal philosophy that the more people that are on welfare, the better.

[reasonfreedom]

If the minimum wage is attached to inflation does that mean it is attached to deflation also? If it is attached to deflation wouldn't that mean higher unemployment through recessions?

[djAdvocate]

Feb 6, 2012 11:22:53 GMT -5 jkapp said:

Feb 4, 2012 16:48:09 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

by the way- someone on this board pointed out that something considerably less than 10% of all wage earners make minimum wage. so although there would be some inflationary impact, it is probably considerably less than most people would imagine (myself included).

But what it does do is increase the number of people eligible for welfare, since welfare is tied to the level of minimum wage.

you sure about that?

[djAdvocate]

Feb 6, 2012 14:47:24 GMT -5 reasonfreedom said:

If the minimum wage is attached to inflation does that mean it is attached to deflation also? If it is attached to deflation wouldn't that mean higher unemployment through recessions?

recessions are very rarely deflationary.

[jkapp]

Feb 6, 2012 15:08:28 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Feb 6, 2012 11:22:53 GMT -5 jkapp said:

But what it does do is increase the number of people eligible for welfare, since welfare is tied to the level of minimum wage.

you sure about that?

Oops, excuse me, I meant poverty is tied to the level of minimum wage.