thè rích âre different - and not in a good way

[chiver78]

this was an interesting read....I have to say many of my peers in the pharma world do seem distracted when we're all out in public and there are "have-nots" around.

The rich are different — and not in a good way, studies suggest
The 'Haves' show less empathy than 'Have-nots'

Psychologist and social scientist Dacher Keltner says the rich really are different, and not in a good way: Their life experience makes them less empathetic, less altruistic, and generally more selfish.

In fact, he says, the philosophical battle over economics, taxes, debt ceilings and defaults that are now roiling the stock market is partly rooted in an upper class "ideology of self-interest."

“We have now done 12 separate studies measuring empathy in every way imaginable, social behavior in every way, and some work on compassion and it’s the same story,” he said. “Lower class people just show more empathy, more prosocial behavior, more compassion, no matter how you look at it.”
***********************************************************************************

this is a LONG column. please read all of it before commenting here. I'm following moon's request to post a snippet of a story alongside a link - click the headline for the whole story.

[Deleted]

I have a different interpretation on this than the article. The rich I personally know came from disadvantaged backgrounds and bootstrapped themselves up through hard work, discipline, and education. They have less sympathy for those from the same backgrounds. They think "If I can do it so can you." In general they are optomistic and go-getters.

[fairlycrazy23]

This seems to be his conclusion “They think that economic success and political outcomes, and personal outcomes, have to do with individual behavior, a good work ethic,” said Keltner, a professor of psychology at the University of California, Berkeley.

Because the rich gloss over the ways family connections, money and education helped, they come to denigrate the role of government and vigorously oppose taxes to fund it. "

[mmhmm]

From what I saw over the years in the ICU, chiver, I can't say I disagree. My experience would tend to support what's said. When something happened (like a Code Blue) in the Unit, it was always the poorer, or average patients who were concerned about what happened to the patient in the "other room" and if they were going to be "okay". Wealthy patients rarely showed much interest other than to watch the scurry of activity. I did have one wealthy patient's family member ask me once if "that person" died from something contagious. That's the only time anyone ever asked me anything like that. Can't say what causes this, and my evidence is strictly anecdotal as opposed to backed by real research.

[Don Perignon]

True empathy can only come from people who have experienced personal pain and suffering. Those who spend their lives detached and insulated, without ever experiencing loss or need, don't have any opportunity to develop compassion.

[chiver78]

Aug 10, 2011 20:39:34 GMT -5 fairlycrazy23 said:

This seems to be his conclusion “They think that economic success and political outcomes, and personal outcomes, have to do with individual behavior, a good work ethic,” said Keltner, a professor of psychology at the University of California, Berkeley.

Because the rich gloss over the ways family connections, money and education helped, they come to denigrate the role of government and vigorously oppose taxes to fund it. "

I guess where I land in the spectrum is that I feel those that have actually worked for their riches can put a value to the elbow grease they have paid in. the second (third, fourth, etc) generation is born into the wealth, and doesn't fully understand and appreciate the work that earned that wealth (à la Paris Hilton in another recent thread). these are the "rich" that the studies in this link are taking a closer look at. the people that have grown up in the wealth that someone else earned, and that have been raised with no concept of how it materialized. I can't imagine any of the conservative left would be happy about this. most that I know personally would be horrified to realize their children had no concept of the actual value of a dollar, or that while a dollar means a pittance to them....it may mean a lot more to someone that wasn't born with a silver spoon in his mouth.

[shelby]

A way to deal with and be ok with the injustice in thier favor I guess. I will add my husbands friend who came from a wealthy family went to prison for eco terrorism (he was protecting whales from tribal hunting) and is an extreme "leftist socialist" just the opposite reaction to the same injustice I guess.

[Value Buy]

Aug 10, 2011 20:43:17 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

From what I saw over the years in the ICU, chiver, I can't say I disagree. My experience would tend to support what's said. When something happened (like a Code Blue) in the Unit, it was always the poorer, or average patients who were concerned about what happened to the patient in the "other room" and if they were going to be "okay". Wealthy patients rarely showed much interest other than to watch the scurry of activity. I did have one wealthy patient's family member ask me once if "that person" died from something contagious. That's the only time anyone ever asked me anything like that. Can't say what causes this, and my evidence is strictly anecdotal as opposed to backed by real research.

Wow. I am just plain old middle class, brought up by a mill worker and stay at home mom, but I must say, due to aging of grandparents, parents, aunts and uncles, I have spent my share of time in hospitals, waiting rooms, coffee rooms etc, and find it hard to believe you have never seen the upper class showing any compassion for others.
Some conversations always pop up, with "wealthy" people who are there suffering the same family agonies as the masses, and there were many times, suggestions of possible other doctors being sought out to help with our situation(s).
Of course, I am talking about public hospitals, and not necessarily hospitals that are frequented by the uber rich Democratic faithful......

[chiver78]

Value Buy, I doubt that the uber-rich Republican faithful are frequenting any more or less "basic" hospitals than their uber-rich Democratic counterparts. the wealthier people in our midst have hospital preferences outlined alongside a drycleaner in the Rolodex. I doubt they would change those preferences in light of a study that might cast them in a different shadow.

[shelby]

"I am talking about public hospitals, and not necessarily hospitals that are frequented by the uber rich Democratic faithful......"

So you are saying only democrats worship at the alter of the almighty dollar?

[fairlycrazy23]

How does this possibly show anything about anything:

In one test, for example, Keltner and other colleagues had 115 people play the “dictator game,” a standard trial of economic behavior. “Dictators” were paired with an unseen partner, given ten “points” that represented money, and told they could share as many or as few of the points with the partner as they desired. Lower-class participants gave more even after controlling for gender, age or ethnicity.

[chiver78]

Aug 10, 2011 22:03:20 GMT -5 fairlycrazy23 said:

How does this possibly show anything about anything:

In one test, for example, Keltner and other colleagues had 115 people play the “dictator game,” a standard trial of economic behavior. “Dictators” were paired with an unseen partner, given ten “points” that represented money, and told they could share as many or as few of the points with the partner as they desired. Lower-class participants gave more even after controlling for gender, age or ethnicity.

are you unfamiliar with the Milgram experiment? the perception of the study subject as to their place in the experiment is very important. the study subjects here were told to spend those "points" as they desired. isn't that what the study showed, that the rich were less empathetic overall over the course of this study?

[djAdvocate]

i think this whole nation has become so self interested that we can't really have a democracy any more.

[weltschmerz]

My son is crew chief at a moving company. He loathes moving the rich. They won't even offer the hot, sweaty movers a glass of water....just follow them around, wringing their hands and saying "Be careful with that! It's expensive!" No matter how well a job is done, they never tip. Never.
The poor people offer coffee, buy a pizza if the the job is a long one, and tip generously.
It never fails.

[shelby]

Aug 10, 2011 22:21:07 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

My son is crew chief at a moving company. He loathes moving the rich. They won't even offer the hot, sweaty movers a glass of water....just follow them around, wringing their hands and saying "Be careful with that! It's expensive!" No matter how well a job is done, they never tip. Never.
The poor people offer coffee, buy a pizza if the the job is a long one, and tip generously.
It never fails.

So true I have worked jobs for tips before the less wealthy working class tip better are more appreciative and much more pleasant, the wealthier people were so nit picky and rude. I think the resentment they feel people have for them is not thier money but thier poopy condecending attitude towards other people. But that is what happens when you put so much of your self worth in your bank account and not actual qualities.

[2kids10horses]

djlungrot,

We've never had a "democracy". We have a democratic republic.

[handyman2]

How is it we put all rich people in the same box? There are as varied personalities in any so called group you can assemble.
There are many rich people who give to charitable organizations amounts that are more in one year than a upper middle class family will make in a life time. I know some very wealthy who until you know them personally you would never guess they were wealthy at all.
Sorry but one size fits all is not a reasonable conclusion.

[steff]

How is it we put all rich people in the same box? There are as varied personalities in any so called group you can assemble.

how is it that certain folks put all poor into the same negative box? According to most here, they are leaches, drug users, lazy, and add whatever other nasty negative label you can add.

[magichat]

I am reminded of a book, The Millionaire Next Door. If you've read it, you probably already know that you can't judge one's wealth by possessions and appearance. The "wealthy" people that Welts son helps move are probably as paper poor as they get and in debt up to their eyeballs.

Oh how our perceptions mislead us into looking like asses.

[dancinmama]

A lot of Americans are falling for this class warfare stuff. Don't do it. You HEAR Obama talk about the millionaires and billionaires and the tax cuts that they are getting on their corporate jets and many get up in arms about that thinking that those greedy, corporate jet owners should pay more.

How many people who make $250,000 a year own a corporate jet? I would guess to say, not very many. Obama claims that he doesn't want to raise EVERYONE'S taxes - just those who make $250,000 or more. So the bar for what includes "the rich" has now been lowered from corporate jet owner to anyone who makes over $250,000 a year.

This article seems to be adding fuel to the fire when it comes to class warfare in this country. Be careful what you say about "the rich" because the author is talking about A LOT OF YOU. Notice how in the beginning of the article the author talks about "the rich" but never puts a number on it. Then you get to the middle of the article.

According to Gallup, Americans earning more than $90,000 per year continued to increase their consumer spending in July while middle- and lower-income Americans remained stalled, even as the upper classes argue that they can’t pay any more taxes.

The author describes middle- and lower-income Americans as those who make less than $90,000 per year and then links those who make more than $90,000 to increased spending and the upper class in the same sentence.

This article lowers the bar even further as to how "the rich" are being defined (i.e. those who have enough money to increase their consumer spending, those who make over $90K, and those that argue that they can't pay any more taxes).

So everyone who thinks they make too little for the government to come after them for more taxes - think again. The more articles like this that are written, the more the bar will be lowered and the next thing you know anyone who make more than the average salary is going to be pegged as "the rich".

[jkapp]

This is the same lack of compassion I see from public union members when it comes time for their pay raises and benefit increases to be funded by taxpayers, and welfare dependents when it comes time to pay for their "free" stuff.

Notice, how there's no empathy from the elderly when Medicare/SS are hurting for cash...or when there's no COL increase, you don't see them empathize with younger generations as they call for more benefits be taken away from the future beneficiaries or more debt be thrown on future generations to fund their present benefits.

I don't see much empathy at all from most groups of people...their economic status seems to make little difference. It's all about what THEY need or feel THEY deserve no matter where it has to be taken from.

[jkapp]

Aug 10, 2011 22:10:12 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

Aug 10, 2011 22:03:20 GMT -5 fairlycrazy23 said:

How does this possibly show anything about anything:

In one test, for example, Keltner and other colleagues had 115 people play the “dictator game,” a standard trial of economic behavior. “Dictators” were paired with an unseen partner, given ten “points” that represented money, and told they could share as many or as few of the points with the partner as they desired. Lower-class participants gave more even after controlling for gender, age or ethnicity.

are you unfamiliar with the Milgram experiment? the perception of the study subject as to their place in the experiment is very important. the study subjects here were told to spend those "points" as they desired. isn't that what the study showed, that the rich were less empathetic overall over the course of this study?

But what were these "points" used for? Were they to buy products/services or just to hand out to anyone else for nothing? See, I am not rich, but I also don't believe giving someone something for nothing.

However, in this experiment, these points are meaningless....you are given a bunch of points from out of nowhere and need to share them with others? There has to be more to this study than just that???

[jkapp]

Aug 10, 2011 22:21:07 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

My son is crew chief at a moving company. He loathes moving the rich. They won't even offer the hot, sweaty movers a glass of water....just follow them around, wringing their hands and saying "Be careful with that! It's expensive!" No matter how well a job is done, they never tip. Never.
The poor people offer coffee, buy a pizza if the the job is a long one, and tip generously.
It never fails.

They offer the movers coffee on a hot day?? Those sick bastards! ;D

I used to deliver pizzas and one my former girlfriends used to waitress...poor people didn't tip for shit yet expected a perfect meal with perfect service. The high class business people making their deals over a lunch tipped very generously, however.

[magichat]

Aug 11, 2011 9:18:37 GMT -5 jkapp said:

Aug 10, 2011 22:21:07 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

My son is crew chief at a moving company. He loathes moving the rich. They won't even offer the hot, sweaty movers a glass of water....just follow them around, wringing their hands and saying "Be careful with that! It's expensive!" No matter how well a job is done, they never tip. Never.
The poor people offer coffee, buy a pizza if the the job is a long one, and tip generously.
It never fails.

They offer the movers coffee on a hot day?? Those sick bastards! ;D

I used to deliver pizzas and one my former girlfriends used to waitress...poor people didn't tip for shit yet expected a perfect meal with perfect service. The high class business people making their deals over a lunch tipped very generously, however.

Maybe it's a democrat/republican thing? I have frequented several restaurants that Warren Buffett eats regularly at, and he is known as a terrible tipper. ;D

[mmhmm]

Seems pretty simple to me. The "dictator" is just that ... a "dictator". Could be of a small country, or a business, or a family. It doesn't really matter. This person is "the boss". This person is given a partner, or "co-dictator". The partner will now be the "other boss". In order to be effective (thus, taking some of the pressure of running everything off "the boss"), the "other boss" needs to have some clout, yes? So, let's think of the points as "clout". Extrapolate from there.

[flopsy]

does this work both ways? like if i lack loads of useless empathy i'm a prime target for becoming rich?

[mmhmm]

Reading the article, I think these writers are talking about a different "rich" than most of us are thinking of. They're not talking about the people who live up the hill from you ... unless, that is, you live down the hill from the Hiltons. I know people who are quite well-to-do; however, they worked hard to get where they are, and most are still working hard. Many of these folks are just as empathetic as anybody else (although, there are exceptions just as there are amongst those who have little or nothing). I don't think those are the "rich" this study is addressing.

[floridayankee]

Aug 10, 2011 22:21:07 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

The poor people offer coffee, buy a pizza if the the job is a long one, and tip generously.
It never fails.

I believe the poor people grab their friends with pickups and move themselves.


All the times I've moved in my life and not once have I ever hired a mover.

[magichat]

Aug 11, 2011 9:28:12 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Reading the article, I think these writers are talking about a different "rich" than most of us are thinking of. They're not talking about the people who live up the hill from you ... unless, that is, you live down the hill from the Hiltons. I know people who are quite well-to-do; however, they worked hard to get where they are, and most are still working hard. Many of these folks are just as empathetic as anybody else (although, there are exceptions just as there are amongst those who have little or nothing). I don't think those are the "rich" this study is addressing.

Unless one of us reads the actual study will we really ever known what they meant by "rich"?

As I was trying to point out earlier, peoples perception of rich is very skewed by possessions which is meanlingless to the bottom line.

[dancinmama]

Aug 11, 2011 9:21:10 GMT -5 @magichat said:

Aug 11, 2011 9:18:37 GMT -5 jkapp said:

They offer the movers coffee on a hot day?? Those sick bastards! ;D

I used to deliver pizzas and one my former girlfriends used to waitress...poor people didn't tip for shit yet expected a perfect meal with perfect service. The high class business people making their deals over a lunch tipped very generously, however.

Maybe it's a democrat/republican thing? I have frequented several restaurants that Warren Buffett eats regularly at, and he is known as a terrible tipper. ;D

Terrible according to what? If he tips 20% or more would that be considered "terrible"? Or is what he leaves considered "terrible" relative to how rich he is?