We need to face the truth

[Deleted]

Great article by Janet Daley


If we are to survive the looming catastrophe, we need to face the truth
The idea that a capitalist economy can support a socialist welfare state is collapsing before our eyes, says Janet Daley.

We have arrived at the endgame of what was an untenable doctrine: to pay for the kind of entitlements that populations have been led to expect by their politicians, the wealth-creating sector has to be taxed to a degree that makes it almost impossible for it to create the wealth that is needed to pay for the entitlements that populations have been led to expect, etc, etc.

www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/janetdaley/8685945/If-we-are-to-survive-the-looming-catastrophe-we-need-to-face-the-truth.html

[Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ]

I have posted numerous times here and on the old forums that there is not enough wealth in the US to cover and pay for what lays before us, that is well over $100 trillion in unfunded liabilities and a rapidly growing public debt.

[privateinvestor]

The White House is poised to revive efforts to repeal the Bush-era tax cuts again but not too sure if this will be acceptabe or not by the so called Super Commmittee but you can bet it will be on the table

[Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ]

The White House is poised to revive efforts to repeal the Bush-era tax cuts again but not too sure if this will be acceptabe or not by the so called Super Commmittee but you can bet it will be on the table


Bush tax cuts aside, have we all forgot about the 2% reduction in Social Security tax for this year? It expires on 12/31/2011.
Have we gotten used to having an extra $75 to $200 in our checks each month?

[bean29]

SF

I agree with you about the 2% SS Reduction - I have said all year that I can not see how they will eliminate the reduction given that they can not re-instate the bush tax cuts without people calling it an increase in taxes.

I and bout 60% of my co-workers rolled the 2% into our 401K's so when they take it away we will reduce our 401K contributions and it will have no effect on our net paychecks.

Those people with no retirement savings will see a cut in pay though. IMO, there is not much you can do for someone that refuses to live on their current income anyways.

[Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ]

I was one who thought the 2% SS reduction was a bad idea on many fronts.

[frep]

Yes it was a bad idea. SS has enough financial pitfalls already without lowering the revenue going towards it.

[Deleted]

The idea that a capitalist economy can support a socialist welfare state is collapsing before our eyes, says Janet Daley.

Truer words were never spoken. You need to either move back from socialist programs or change to a socialist government.

I've been saying much the same thing for a couple of years now. But the socialist want to nitpick & kibitz over what socialism is or isn't, what the word means, etc....Anything to deflect from the fact that they are pushing an agenda that takes from one class to support the other class (socialism or just plain robbery).

[ungenteel]

The truth is ....

The only thing that retires debt is new wealth creation ... the only thing that creates wealth is value added activities (manufacturing, construction, agriculture, mining, etc)

We have sent a debilitating amount of manufacturing offshore ....

Corporate America threw down the gauntlet and essentially stated that unless we are willing to work for Asian wages ... the jobs will go to Asia

The real problem is that even if the chieftains of industry wanted to bring back jobs .. there is no way it could happen quickly because there would be a need to re-tool. We are looking at a very ugly few years

[Deleted]

Corporate America threw down the gauntlet and essentially stated that unless we are willing to work for Asian wages ... the jobs will go to Asia

Even if we worked for asian wages we couldn't compete. They have a better work ethic & they can produce the same product only better. If you don't agree what kind of car are you driving & if it's an American one look up it's reliability compared to a foreign car. America is screwed for a lot of reasons & it all boils down to the decisions we've made & the people we have raised.

[Don Perignon]

It won't be cheap to turn "brownfields" and Toxic Waste sites back into manufacturing facilities. Also, ultimately, it is the cost of energy that dictates whether or not a manufacturer can compete successfully, and the era of cheap oil flooding the market is long past.
All the speculation about the world reverting to pre-industrial age models happens to be pretty much on-the-spot... once cheap oil is gone, there will be no returning to the technologies that depend upon cheap oil.
Will agrarian societies be able to produce, support and maintain your Iphones and flatscreen TVs?
I doubt it.
Agriculture will suffer the biggest changes, without petrol for the tractors and the combines and the trucks that haul the harvest... things will be radically different.

[djAdvocate]

Aug 10, 2011 18:27:50 GMT -5 @oldtex said:

Corporate America threw down the gauntlet and essentially stated that unless we are willing to work for Asian wages ... the jobs will go to Asia

Even if we worked for asian wages we couldn't compete. They have a better work ethic & they can produce the same product only better. If you don't agree what kind of car are you driving & if it's an American one look up it's reliability compared to a foreign car. America is screwed for a lot of reasons & it all boils down to the decisions we've made & the people we have raised.

wow. you are so much more pessimistic than i am! i would never have guessed that.

for the record- my guys work their asses off. period.

[Deleted]

Part of the truth is that entitlements are an enormous wealth transfer from the poor (the young) to the rich (the old). Politicians don't want to touch this because most voters are older.

[Deleted]

wow. you are so much more pessimistic than i am! i would never have guessed that.

for the record- my guys work their asses off. period.

djlungrot, yes I am. We are turning out dumb kids, thus throwing away their potential. We are stifling the potential of the poor by locking them into a system of poverty. Then there's the unions sucking those many times outlandish wages, work requirements, & benefits from companies bottom lines. Then you have a government that is burdening businesses more & more with regulations. A government that will be raising taxes on both businesses & tax payers because they can't control spending. Oh & don't forget the tax burden for new social programs.

The truth is that this is a perfect storm for the U.S. It's a toss up to see if the last business folds before the last worker has a heart attack from working the 6 jobs that he has to work to support everybody else.

Oh & your guys won't be working their asses off when they realize that after taxes they can make more on welfare than they do working. For the people earning the big bucks the European socialist system is just kind of demoralizing. For the average worker it's real demoralizing. Why do you think they live at home until they are 30? That's just how long it takes to buy a house. Research what VAT is & how much they pay. Maybe people here deserve that type of system. It looks like 50% of the people want it even though they have never experienced it. Maybe Obamacare will offer brain operations free. I bet there will be a line for that too.

[djAdvocate]

Aug 10, 2011 20:03:51 GMT -5 @oldtex said:

wow. you are so much more pessimistic than i am! i would never have guessed that.

for the record- my guys work their asses off. period.

djlungrot, yes I am. We are turning out dumb kids, thus throwing away their potential. We are stifling the potential of the poor by locking them into a system of poverty. Then there's the unions sucking those many times outlandish wages, work requirements, & benefits from companies bottom lines. Then you have a government that is burdening businesses more & more with regulations. A government that will be raising taxes on both businesses & tax payers because they can't control spending. Oh & don't forget the tax burden for new social programs.

The truth is that this is a perfect storm for the U.S. It's a toss up to see if the last business folds before the last worker has a heart attack from working the 6 jobs that he has to work to support everybody else.

Oh & your guys won't be working their asses off when they realize that after taxes they can make more on welfare than they do working.

you are wrong on two levels. first of all, one of my guys just returned from disability. he HATED IT. he was sitting around his house for six months rotting away, feeling worthless. he could not WAIT to get back, even at lower pay. he would work for less than welfare paid, i am POSITIVE of it.

but secondly, he doesn't have to. our guys start at 2x minimum wage, and most of them make 3-5x minimum. we have a health plan and a retirement benefit. one of my guys has been with the business for 30 years. i only have one guy who has been there less than five (hired him in Jan).

so, i can only say that your experiences are totally unfamiliar to me. these guys would kill for these jobs, they work their asses off, and there is a line out the door of people to replace them.

maybe the average worker doesn't work hard because being a WalMart greeter, selling Chinese crap to cheap Americans, is the kind of job that people loathe- and the good jobs have all been exported?

[ungenteel]

<<and the good jobs have all been exported? >>

It isn't that the "good" jobs have been exported .. it is the wealth creating jobs have been exported. The US cannot survive on a service/retail based economy. I keep seeing dimbulb righties suggesting that we need to stimulate spending .. cukoo .. cukoo

spending in the absence of wealth creation is simply incurring more debt ... we need to stimulate wealth creation by bringing value added activities back to America

[fairlycrazy23]

Aug 11, 2011 0:11:09 GMT -5 ungenteel said:

<<and the good jobs have all been exported? >>

It isn't that the "good" jobs have been exported .. it is the wealth creating jobs have been exported. The US cannot survive on a service/retail based economy. I keep seeing dimbulb righties suggesting that we need to stimulate spending .. cukoo .. cukoo

spending in the absence of wealth creation is simply incurring more debt ... we need to stimulate wealth creation by bringing value added activities back to America

You seem to have flip flopped the positions the right and left positions.

[floridayankee]

Aug 10, 2011 14:05:56 GMT -5 Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ said:

I was one who thought the 2% SS reduction was a bad idea on many fronts.

Figure on take home pay increased $20 for every $1,000 gross.

Wow, book that cruise baby....we're rich!

[privateinvestor]

We have arrived at the endgame of what was an untenable doctrine: to pay for the kind of entitlements that populations have been led to expect by their politicians, the wealth-creating sector has to be taxed to a degree that makes it almost impossible for it to create the wealth that is needed to pay for the entitlements that populations have been led to expect, etc, etc.


It is NOT just entitlements but pensions as well that have caused an impact to both the Federal and State Budgets but for some reason the Liberals don't want to touch these two government funded programs but they may be on the so called "table" when the Super Committee begins their work to restore some sense of fiscal sanity in Washington DC, but don't hold your breath IMHO

[floridayankee]

Aug 11, 2011 0:11:09 GMT -5 ungenteel said:

It isn't that the "good" jobs have been exported .. it is the wealth creating jobs have been exported. The US cannot survive on a service/retail based economy. I keep seeing dimbulb righties suggesting that we need to stimulate spending .. cukoo .. cukoo

If you think that's bad, look at the dimbulb lefties saying we need to create wealth in one thread and redistribute wealth in another.. cukoo .. cukoo.

[Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ]

Figure on take home pay increased $20 for every $1,000 gross.
Wow, book that cruise baby....we're rich!

Anyone paying at the max rate, would save roughly $2000 this year. Approximately $175 per month.
Any run of the mill middle class job would be paying SS at or very close to the max rate.

Your $20 pay increase would likely be for very low income earners.

[jarhead1976]

I have contributed to SS in the form of my FICA tax @ 15% for years. So how does that make me un- entitled to the very money invested in the TRUST fund. With investments and 401k taking a hit everyday, was not SS started to provide for my future when I am to old to work? Lets hold the people in charge of the TRUST accountable. I do feel entitled

[Deleted]

Aug 11, 2011 9:21:29 GMT -5 @jarhead1976 said:

I have contributed to SS in the form of my FICA tax @ 15% for years. So how does that make me un- entitled to the very money invested in the TRUST fund. With investments and 401k taking a hit everyday, was not SS started to provide for my future when I am to old to work? Lets hold the people in charge of the TRUST accountable. I do feel entitled

We know you feel entitled, everyone does. That is the main point of the article. Everyone feels entitled to something and it is simply not sustainable.

[jarhead1976]

xmascookie, I feel entitled only to what is mine, not what i can get from someone else. Sustainable or not , it was the governments requirment that I pay the FICA, that makes them accountable for my benifits. I have to follow the rules and they do not. Is that what your saying?

[Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ]

vcxmascookie, I feel entitled only to what is mine, not what i can get from someone else. Sustainable or not , it was the governments requirment that I pay the FICA, that makes them accountable for my benifits. I have to follow the rules and they do not. Is that what your saying?


SS is not an entitlement. An entitlement is something the govt provides. Anyone who shows up and applies, who meets what ever the requirements are, can draw benefits.

SS is an old age retirement program requiring those who draw from it, to have to pay into it for a certain amount of quarters.

[Deleted]

Aug 11, 2011 14:54:44 GMT -5 @jarhead1976 said:

xmascookie, I feel entitled only to what is mine, not what i can get from someone else. Sustainable or not , it was the governments requirment that I pay the FICA, that makes them accountable for my benifits. I have to follow the rules and they do not. Is that what your saying?

Believe me I understand. I have paid in my share and feel ripped off also. No, that's not what I'm saying at all . Just being realistic. Gov has not played by the rules and I don't see how now they can play by the rules. It really ticks me off as this is another conversation that started and should have been resolved 30 years ago.

[djAdvocate]

Aug 11, 2011 14:59:41 GMT -5 Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ said:

vcxmascookie, I feel entitled only to what is mine, not what i can get from someone else. Sustainable or not , it was the governments requirment that I pay the FICA, that makes them accountable for my benifits. I have to follow the rules and they do not. Is that what your saying?


SS is not an entitlement. An entitlement is something the govt provides. Anyone who shows up and applies, who meets what ever the requirements are, can draw benefits.

maybe it is just me, but i see little difference between services that are drawn by people who earn money and pay taxes, and SS.