Mark of the times? [sigh]

[deziloooooo]

While it's not really news , still..one can't help but ask as we read these stories , when if ever it will end.

These type jobs are very, very well paid jobs here..and while we can diss the American workers and unions as being unrealistic in their salary demands if they are those, still, what ever the Polish workers are getting paid, I doubt if most here knew , I wonder if they would expect American workers, in skilled jobs no less, to be able to have any kind of decent life if they offered to work for those wages.
Granted , it might have been part of the deal to get sales in Europe, though I believe it is the quality of the product that is driving these sales..if the costs of the product are in line with competitors offerings
-----------------------------
www.courant.com/business/hc-sikorsky-poland-20110805,0,6128253.story
------------------------------
[Click on link to read the whole article]
-------------------------------
First Polish-Made Black Hawks Delivered

By MARA LEE, [e-mail]

The Hartford Courant

6:56 p.m. EDT, August 5, 2011

"Sikorsky has delivered its first three Black Hawk helicopters assembled in Mielec, Poland.
The Black Hawks built for foreign militaries are known as the S-70i model, and these are the first ones delivered, the company said Friday.

Sikorsky, which bought the Polish company PZL in 2007, has invested more than $100 million in the factory and increased employment there by 30 percent. The factory now employs more than 2,000 people. Sikorsky said it has stimulated the development of Poland's aviation industry.

The company plans to expand production to 10 aircraft in 2012, and to 22 helicopters in 2013.

Greg Hayes, the chief financial officer of Sikorsky's parent, United Technologies Corp., told investors in early 2010 that Sikorsky would increase its profit margins by moving work to Poland and Turkey for foreign Black Hawk orders, and that Hamilton Sundstrand and Pratt & Whitney also would raise profits by moving manufacturing from Connecticut and Canada and moving it to lower-cost countries"

[Deleted]

, I wonder if they would expect American workers, in skilled jobs no less, to be able to have any kind of decent life if they offered to work for those wages.

Deziloooooo on something like this I'm sure we all have different opinions. Much like we have different opinions as to what wage would support a "decent life".

The one example that I can think of was back in the early 1970's. The car manufacturers were paying union workers enough in their minds to make a "decent life". I was watching a TV show (like 20 20) where they talked about cars being made. The number quoted for the guy that was screwing bumpers on was $17.50 per hour. That was considered by unions (& I guess workers) as a decent wage for a basically unskilled job (he screwed 2 nuts on 2 bolts to fix the bumper on & used a hydraulic lift to bring & hold the bumper for him). That was $17.50 per hour & I was making around $140 per week for a skilled job (filling prescriptions).

Those are the kind of numbers that drive manufacturing away in droves. Why pay $17.50 per hour when you can pay $2.50 an hour & the workers are happy because they can live well on that much (because of LCOL) in their country.

We can't compete with overseas labor costs. What we can do is compete in making things better & making new things for sale that you can't get anywhere else. Well along with our reputation for high labor cost is a reputation for poor quality (sad but true). Which would I buy a TV made overseas or one made here....overseas of course because it will last longer & work better. The same is true for most things.

The American workers drove those manufacturers overseas in the beginning much like the American people drove health care into becoming a "business" (with law suits). We did it & we need to find a way to undo it & then change our reputation. I don't know how, I just recognize the problems.

[deziloooooo]

" I was making around $140 per week for a skilled job (filling prescriptions). "

LOL, I know the drug business, years ago I was a salesman for McKesson when there were mostly independent Pharmacies, [ so few today, though I use one for my needs], many were Mom and Pop ones..though many small chaions that were put together by the more successful guys[few woman back then ]..and it wasn't a six year schooling to become a Pharmacist.

Today that field is a over $100 thousand a year one in most areas..chains proliferate and Pharmacist rarely hit the floor with the front of the stores..and I doubt if those jobs will be out sourced, unless they open the mail order end up beyond what it is today..from foreign shores..though if they could guarantee the quality of, I am sure hugh savings could be there for our medical costs of drugs..say allowing part D to be used for off shore RX ..even Canada..safety there I beleive is on a par with the States over all..if so, then you too might find that your job , through no fault of your self, just the economics of is also disappearing unless you too wanted to work for those off shore wages.[ You know it could happen..]

[Deleted]

for off shore RX ..even Canada..safety there I beleive is on a par with the States over all..if so, then you too might find that your job , through no fault of your self, just the economics of is also disappearing unless you too wanted to work for those off shore wages.[ You know it could happen..]

Not me! I've filled enough prescriptions to last a lifetime. I've worked in large places (our high day was total count of over 2,800 per day & we averaged over 2,000 per day) & small places (which I ran). I put in my 11 to 16 hour days & worked every other weekend & it sucked.

[Bluerobin]

Are the unions overpaid, or are they getting what everyone should be getting?

[deziloooooo]

Aug 6, 2011 9:15:33 GMT -5 @oldtex said:

for off shore RX ..even Canada..safety there I beleive is on a par with the States over all..if so, then you too might find that your job , through no fault of your self, just the economics of is also disappearing unless you too wanted to work for those off shore wages.[ You know it could happen..]

Not me! I've filled enough prescriptions to last a lifetime. I've worked in large places (our high day was total count of over 2,800 per day & we averaged over 2,000 per day) & small places (which I ran). I put in my 11 to 16 hour days & worked every other weekend & it sucked.

LOL, I never said the job was a easy one, I had great respect for the ones I worked with..and it's neat that they are now a excellent paying one and understanding why so few independents..insurence papar work and all the other problems of a small business.

Actually I know a Druggist who when wanting to retire, he had a independent store, doing ove $2 million per..excellent front store, cosmetics as well as RX's..no nights, closed at 7, no Sundays..very well established, had a unique offerings if needed that chains couldn't do, had some customer on the books for RX if needed, interest charged but no real problems on collections..so kept customers from the chains and was able to be price competitive, was unable to sell it, the store, no young men/woman interested, there was easily enough for two partners for example, had a good lease in a nice little shopping center..but no takers.

Finally had to sell RX's to a chain and just close the doors..sign of our times..

Do you fill in at all, or fully retired..?

[2kids10horses]

dezi,

What we are seeing are the effects of a free market. If labor is overpriced in the US, the market will find a way to use cheaper labor somewhere else.

The problem, I believe, at least in part, it because of the "minimum wage". We have set a minimum wage here in the US that other countries can undercut. By doing so, we cannot compete.

The price of any commodity (and labor is a commodity) is determined by the intersection of the demand and supply curves. If one of those curves is artificially adjusted by outside forces (in this case, the minimum wage) the price of labor is unbalanced. THe "Market" seeks balance, and so it has found it's balance by seeking labor offshore.

We now live in a global economy, not a domestic one. Sure, there may be a time lag of when an event on the far side of the globe affects the US, but it still does. Take the recent earthquake and tsunami in Japan, for example. 30 years ago, we would not have noticed. Today, it means fewer cars for sale, and prices of good used cars are up.

Labor Unions have had a similiar effect. THey have created a higher price of labor for much of our manufacturing companies.

The price of labor, wages, acts differently than most commodities in one respect: wages are "sticky". That is, wages don't go down when either supply goes up, or demand falls like other commodities. We're starting to see SOME of this kind of thing happen, where some companies are able to lower their labor costs (everyone having a pay cut, or forced furlow days), but not nearly to the extent necessary to be able to compete with foreign labor.

The recent Boeing case of the Obama administration preventing Boeing from opening a new plant in South Carolina (a non-union State) where labor costs may be cheaper is illustrative. Boeing, may be forced to open a plant in Mexico or Brazil to build it's airplanes. Boeing sells globally. It has to compete with global competitors. Like it or not, we cannot reverse the tide of outsourcing.

[ameiko]

Aug 6, 2011 9:25:50 GMT -5 Bluerobin said:

Are the unions overpaid, or are they getting what everyone should be getting?

How does one define what "should" be?

It's the market place; if someone should get it, they will. If they can't, that they should not.

The above noted, I would like to see those jobs here and thus the question becomes: why?

1. Are US workers overpaid?
2. Do US workers, as OldTex noted, have a reputation for poor quality?
3. Overtaxation and over regulation?
4. Other?

Figure out the issue then and solve it even if we don't like it. For example, if it is because we tax too much, well slash the corporate rate to zero permanently. Any loss in corporate tax revenue would be more than offset by increase in income taxes and decrease in social service spending.

[djAdvocate]

Aug 7, 2011 8:55:12 GMT -5 2kids10horses said:

dezi,

What we are seeing are the effects of a free market. If labor is overpriced in the US, the market will find a way to use cheaper labor somewhere else.

The problem, I believe, at least in part, it because of the "minimum wage". We have set a minimum wage here in the US that other countries can undercut. By doing so, we cannot compete.

The price of any commodity (and labor is a commodity) is determined by the intersection of the demand and supply curves. If one of those curves is artificially adjusted by outside forces (in this case, the minimum wage) the price of labor is unbalanced. THe "Market" seeks balance, and so it has found it's balance by seeking labor offshore.

We now live in a global economy, not a domestic one. Sure, there may be a time lag of when an event on the far side of the globe affects the US, but it still does. Take the recent earthquake and tsunami in Japan, for example. 30 years ago, we would not have noticed. Today, it means fewer cars for sale, and prices of good used cars are up.

Labor Unions have had a similiar effect. THey have created a higher price of labor for much of our manufacturing companies.

The price of labor, wages, acts differently than most commodities in one respect: wages are "sticky". That is, wages don't go down when either supply goes up, or demand falls like other commodities. We're starting to see SOME of this kind of thing happen, where some companies are able to lower their labor costs (everyone having a pay cut, or forced furlow days), but not nearly to the extent necessary to be able to compete with foreign labor.

The recent Boeing case of the Obama administration preventing Boeing from opening a new plant in South Carolina (a non-union State) where labor costs may be cheaper is illustrative. Boeing, may be forced to open a plant in Mexico or Brazil to build it's airplanes. Boeing sells globally. It has to compete with global competitors. Like it or not, we cannot reverse the tide of outsourcing.

global labor can only be considered part of the market if three prevailing considerations can be met:

1) the labor can truly be exported
2) factors which drive up the cost of that labor are factored in ie:
translation, supervision, productive losses due to all of the above
or cultural considerations, etc
3) the business is of a sufficient size to manage global operations

probably 95% of all US labor will remain competitive owing to one of these three. if that were not the case, the push to pay people 75 cents per hour would be overwhelming.