djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 3, 2011 11:48:17 GMT -5
Now DJ please explain how the programs you listed were part of the liberal agenda? liberals supported all of those issues. liberals fought for them. but apparently, i didn't understand what you meant by "liberal agenda". what did you mean?
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Aug 3, 2011 11:48:53 GMT -5
>>Remember when you could have an intelligent conversation with conservatives? You know, where they actually replied to what you said and they didn't quote some mystery liberal out there? Heck, they even didn't contradict themselves from one sentence to the next and weren't raging hypocrites and didn't need to use buzzwords or routine stereotypes or circle jerking. So what changed exactly? << They spent too much time arguing with liberals...it caused them to take on the liberals' bad habits
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 3, 2011 11:50:31 GMT -5
i agree. all of those fortune 500 CEO's who fail to generate profits at the businesses they run should go without pay. that'll learn 'em. Most who don't generate profits are fired...the BOD expects profits too. if you say so. i guess i only see the "golden parachute" stuff, where sacked CEO's walk away with $20M in severance pay.
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Aug 3, 2011 11:52:25 GMT -5
Such ponderings often result in massive headaches, dj. I recommend Excedrin, but don't exceed the recommended dose. ;D yeah......i would be so much happier if i would just memorize the right wing talking points and repeat them endlessly. Well you seem to memorize the left wing ones just fine...what, there's so many left talking points that there's not enough room for a few more from the right?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 3, 2011 11:52:27 GMT -5
yeah. that rural electric program. what a complete and utter disaster. we should get rid of child labor laws, too. those things are an impediment to capitalism. workplace and food safety has to go, too. it just drives up the cost of goods. and that national highway system should all be torn up and turned into buggy paths again. better for the environment. and horses produce their own natural fertilizer! we really ought to get blacks and women off the voter roles, too. i don't know what those liberals were thinking when they did that. disaster after disaster after disaster. Interesting argument, unfortunately those issues are not exclusively liberal policies... Plus you have to factor in that liberal today is not much of anything like liberal of only 40-50 years ago. how so?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2011 11:52:29 GMT -5
yeah. that rural electric program. what a complete and utter disaster.
we should get rid of child labor laws, too. those things are an impediment to capitalism.
workplace and food safety has to go, too. it just drives up the cost of goods.
and that national highway system should all be torn up and turned into buggy paths again. better for the environment. and horses produce their own natural fertilizer!
we really ought to get blacks and women off the voter roles, too. i don't know what those liberals were thinking when they did that.
disaster after disaster after disaster. The "liberals" of yesteryear are nothing like the liberals today - they probably would be considered moderates if anything. Remember when electing a Catholic president was considered undoable?
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 3, 2011 11:54:16 GMT -5
Sorry MMM: You are mistaken. I am a lot older than you most likely and remember them. The laws were put into place to set the parameters under which the regulations would be administered and the creation of the agencies to provide over site of compliance. Who could argue that they were not a worth while endeavor. Certainly not the people who were being exploited by the wealthy barons who cared nothing for human life and safety. By the way the REA was one of the few government programs that turned a nice profit and still does today. Unless you're "a lot older" than 70, you're not "a lot older" than I. Actually, the last sentence of your first paragraph serves my point. Wealthy barons who cared nothing for human life and safety are part of "everybody". Those who benefited by such things as child labor were not in favor of eliminating it; nor, were they in favor of regulating it. Thankfully, they lost.
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Aug 3, 2011 11:55:27 GMT -5
Most who don't generate profits are fired...the BOD expects profits too. if you say so. i guess i only see the "golden parachute" stuff, where sacked CEO's walk away with $20M in severance pay. I prefer that much more to the politicians that have ruined this country and walk away with a golden pension and benefits...paid for by the same people they f***ed over.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 3, 2011 11:56:15 GMT -5
yeah......i would be so much happier if i would just memorize the right wing talking points and repeat them endlessly. Well you seem to memorize the left wing ones just fine...what, there's so many left talking points that there's not enough room for a few more from the right? i am not really aware of what the left wing talking points are, truthfully. i find ideologues tedious, and tend to avoid them. the only reason i am aware of the right wing talking points is that they are repeated so often when people challenge my posts.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 3, 2011 11:57:33 GMT -5
if you say so. i guess i only see the "golden parachute" stuff, where sacked CEO's walk away with $20M in severance pay. I prefer that much more to the politicians that have ruined this country and walk away with a golden pension and benefits...paid for by the same people they f***ed over. i am not sure which pisses me off more, truthfully. i am not a big fan of rewarding failure.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2011 11:58:05 GMT -5
In their minds, it isn't that they spent too much and it didn't work
Hey maybe if you join up with other people here, you can get a group discount with Miss Cleo. Not only are there "mystery liberals" that are quoted, we're also being fascistly treated to being dictated of what we think. Goosetype much? I grew up in an extreme liberal enclave. I'm in my 30's and a number of my friends and relatives are still in school and have never worked. Teachers, welfare mamas, transgender berkleyites. People who thought Gore and Bush were no different in the 2000 election. When we chat about politics they say they are pretty disappointed. They wanted the legalization of gay marriage, it hasn't happened. They wanted nationalized health insurance, it hasn't happened. They want a repeal of the bush tax cuts, it hasn't happened. Banks have been bailed out while people are still jobless.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 3, 2011 12:01:16 GMT -5
Although my opposition isn't quite as... detailed... as our dear Mkitty's, I agree with her that Mr. Wolf is misattributing long-term problems solely to the Obama presidency. The continuing recession, stagflation, debt crises are the result of fiscal mismanagement spanning many decades and many administrations. We can fault President Obama for not throwing Summers-Greenspan pseudo-Keynesian economic theory out the window. But I imagine that he put the decisions into the hands of the Treasury department, the Fed board of directors, the FOMC, and relied on their expert advice--which was to draw out Pres. Bush's policies. President Obama was the captain of the Titanic when he began his term. He fiddled with the rudders a bit, convinced the passengers that hope and change were coming, took a few martinis from the executive cabin and handed them out in the lower decks, pumped the water from one part of the boat to another in an effort to forestall the sinking. But in the end he's still the captain of the Titanic. Nothing short of a severe austerity plan and a complete reversal of 70 years of economic policy will rectify the US's financial woes. Pres. Obama doesn't have the political clout to effect that kind of change, even if he had the will to do so. Nor, for that matter, do any of the current Republican candidates.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 3, 2011 12:16:06 GMT -5
yeah. that rural electric program. what a complete and utter disaster.
we should get rid of child labor laws, too. those things are an impediment to capitalism.
workplace and food safety has to go, too. it just drives up the cost of goods.
and that national highway system should all be torn up and turned into buggy paths again. better for the environment. and horses produce their own natural fertilizer!
we really ought to get blacks and women off the voter roles, too. i don't know what those liberals were thinking when they did that.
disaster after disaster after disaster. The "liberals" of yesteryear are nothing like the liberals today - they probably would be considered moderates if anything. Remember when electing a Catholic president was considered undoable? how are liberals today different?
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 3, 2011 12:25:17 GMT -5
Although my opposition isn't quite as... detailed... as our dear Mkitty's, I agree with her that Mr. Wolf is misattributing long-term problems solely to the Obama presidency. The continuing recession, stagflation, debt crises are the result of fiscal mismanagement spanning many decades and many administrations. We can fault President Obama for not throwing Summers-Greenspan pseudo-Keynesian economic theory out the window. But I imagine that he put the decisions into the hands of the Treasury department, the Fed board of directors, the FOMC, and relied on their expert advice--which was to draw out Pres. Bush's policies. President Obama was the captain of the Titanic when he began his term. He fiddled with the rudders a bit, convinced the passengers that hope and change were coming, took a few martinis from the executive cabin and handed them out in the lower decks, pumped the water from one part of the boat to another in an effort to forestall the sinking. But in the end he's still the captain of the Titanic. Nothing short of a severe austerity plan and a complete reversal of 70 years of economic policy will rectify the US's financial woes. Pres. Obama doesn't have the political clout to effect that kind of change, even if he had the will to do so. Nor, for that matter, do any of the current Republican candidates. Thanks, Virgil! It's sad, to me, that it takes a Canadian to put the obvious into words when our own citizens are so busy pointing their fingers at whomever happens to be in their range of vision at the moment. What we're seeing now isn't the result of one man, or one moment in time. We're reaping what has been sown over decades and no one party (or person) owns the debacle with which we find ourselves faced.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2011 12:26:02 GMT -5
how are liberals today different?
I've already listed liberal programs that were started in my lifetime that were failures at least twice. I'll pass this time but if you want a hint just look at society today.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 3, 2011 12:27:49 GMT -5
how are liberals today different?I've already listed liberal programs that were started in my lifetime that were failures at least twice. I'll pass this time but if you want a hint just look at society today. i wasn't asking about "programs", tex.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2011 12:27:56 GMT -5
how are liberals today different?
They are more liberal and conservatives are more conservative. There was a fairly broad consensus on values in both gov't and society in the 50's and even well into the 60's. Their philosophies have been diverging over time.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 3, 2011 12:29:49 GMT -5
how are liberals today different?
They are more liberal and conservatives are more conservative. There was a fairly broad consensus on values in both gov't and society in the 50's and even well into the 60's. Their philosophies have been diverging over time. i don't think liberals have changed that much in the last half century, but i agree that conservatives have become way more conservative. if you disagree, can you illustrate a way in which liberals have become more liberal?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2011 12:40:27 GMT -5
if you disagree, can you illustrate a way in which liberals have become more liberal? In 60's and 70's liberals favored military intervention in the world to bring freedom to oppressed peoples - now they say that military intervention is bad because we're imposing our views on others. When the Moynihan report came out talking about the number of out of wedlock births amongst blacks there was a lot of anger - liberals felt that it made black people look bad. Now liberals say that any sort of family formation is equally valid.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 3, 2011 12:45:59 GMT -5
if you disagree, can you illustrate a way in which liberals have become more liberal? In 60's and 70's liberals favored military intervention in the world to bring freedom to oppressed peoples - now they say that military intervention is bad because we're imposing our views on others. When the Moynihan report came out talking about the number of out of wedlock births amongst blacks there was a lot of anger - liberals felt that it made black people look bad. Now liberals say that any sort of family formation is equally valid. ok, thanks. i agree with that.
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Aug 3, 2011 13:09:53 GMT -5
Thanks, Virgil! It's sad, to me, that it takes a Canadian to put the obvious into words when our own citizens are so busy pointing their fingers at whomever happens to be in their range of vision at the moment. What we're seeing now isn't the result of one man, or one moment in time. We're reaping what has been sown over decades and no one party (or person) owns the debacle with which we find ourselves faced. All you had to do was ask, mmhmm. Of course, Virgil states the obvious much more eloquently than I could. Us indys have known this for years...it's likely the reason we're indy to begin with. There really isn't a whole lot of difference between D and R these days and we refuse to allow any particular party browbeat us into a straight party line.
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floridayankee
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Post by floridayankee on Aug 3, 2011 13:16:41 GMT -5
i don't think liberals have changed that much in the last half century, but i agree that conservatives have become way more conservative. Not really. We're just getting more vocal about our displeasure with the absolute failure of our elected officials.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2011 13:23:42 GMT -5
i am still trying to fathom what a president has to do with gas prices. Absolutely nothing, unless he signs a new gas tax increase into law. Or removes a subsidy, as this will be just another cost to pass on to the consumer.
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Shirina
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Post by Shirina on Aug 3, 2011 13:36:46 GMT -5
Liberals of today are far less liberal. Everything has shifted toward the right. Even leaving aside Constitutional prohibitions, I doubt a man like FDR could get elected at all today much less 4 times.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2011 13:41:19 GMT -5
Liberals of today are far less liberal. Everything has shifted toward the right. Even leaving aside Constitutional prohibitions, I doubt a man like FDR could get elected at all today much less 4 times. Why do you feel this way? No attack here, just curious.
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diamonds
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Post by diamonds on Aug 3, 2011 13:50:04 GMT -5
I believe Obama is an intellegent person but the problem is that just because a person may have a very bright mind does not automatically convert into an ability to have leadership qualities. This has been demonstrated many times throughout history. I disagree. He was not equipped to handle the full spectrum of the job as President of the USA. Do you call cunning and deceptive intelligent? I don't!!
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diamonds
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Post by diamonds on Aug 3, 2011 13:59:42 GMT -5
Obama is proving to be what many said he was @ three years ago, a very weak individual who lacks leadership qualities even his own party is upset with him. Obama stood for single payer health care and he caved, he stood for increased taxes and he caved, and he now stands for only one thing his re election and he speaks today in Chicago at another one of his fund raising dinners.. But to their credit Obama and Biden are not claiming victory with the deficit reduction plan because they only went along with it to prevent a default. Now it is up to the so called Super Committee members to fix our debt problems but for that they will need a lot of luck because the Tea Party could influence their decisions again...IMHO .... Well said P.I. I owe you a karma when the last one expires!
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 3, 2011 14:31:21 GMT -5
Liberals of today are far less liberal. Everything has shifted toward the right. Even leaving aside Constitutional prohibitions, I doubt a man like FDR could get elected at all today much less 4 times. and Reagan could only get elected if he ran as a Democrat.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 3, 2011 14:32:35 GMT -5
i don't think liberals have changed that much in the last half century, but i agree that conservatives have become way more conservative. Not really. We're just getting more vocal about our displeasure with the absolute failure of our elected officials. i guess so. but there used to be such a thing as a liberal Republican in public office. now it is an oxymoron.
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Aug 3, 2011 14:45:20 GMT -5
Liberals of today are far less liberal. Everything has shifted toward the right. Even leaving aside Constitutional prohibitions, I doubt a man like FDR could get elected at all today much less 4 times. I don't think they've shifted towards the right, I think they just aren't able to pass the far left legislation they really want because the majority public still fights against it. IMO, they have shifted farther left...remember a popular liberal once stated "ask not what your country can do for you." Their mantra is now "we will do everything for you in exchange for more control over your lives." They are for bigger government, higher taxes, more regulation, less personal responsibility, and (apparently) low profits...
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