River running red with blood..Syria revolt

[deziloooooo]

As on other threads, articles on same topic will be grouped together to make zone easier to read..just scroll to the last articvle, same header as thread header to read latest article.
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Assad resorts to anything to stay in power
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We hear about slaughters in Africa, thousands killed in far off places few of us know where they really are , except some where in the 'dark Continent " and just shake our heads..muttering , Africa, yet in a part of the world we are more familier with, the same thing is happening, a more enlightened , educated , cosmopolitan and modern area.

If one can imagine a countrys Military , all it's forces, artillery, Armor,

[it's been said over 1500 of the countrys working Tanks unleased }

set upon it's citizens, mostly unarmed, at most , some demonstrating for change, all to keep a family in power, when they are no longer wanted.

They say it's a last ditch effort by the regime but I wonder about that..and if the regime stays in power, how then can they govern..
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english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/07/2011731183142996341.html
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[Click on link to read complete article]
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Middle East

'Scores dead' as Syrian tanks storm Hama

At least 142 people reportedly killed in violence throughout the country, a day ahead of the start of Ramadan.

31 Jul 2011 19:12


"Syrian forces have killed nearly 142 people, including at least 100 when the army stormed the flashpoint protest city of Hama to crush dissent on the eve of Ramadan, activists have said.

Rights groups said it was one of deadliest days in Syria since demonstrators first took to the streets on March 15, demanding democratic reforms and the downfall of the government.

As reports of the brutal crackdown on Hama unfurled, Britain, Germany, France, Italy and Turkey condemned the violence, while a US diplomat said it was "full-on warfare".

"It is one of the deadliest days" since the protests erupted, Rami Abdel Rahman, the head of the Britain-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, said.

Death tolls provided by the observatory and other human rights groups showed at least 142 people were killed across Syria, most of them falling in Hama.

"One hundred civilians were killed on Sunday in Hama by gunfire from security forces who accompanied the army as it stormed the city," Abdel Karim Rihawi, head of the Syrian League for the Defence of Human Rights, said.

Rihawi said five other people were killed in the central city of Homs, and three more in the northwestern province of Idlib, when security forces opened fire on protesters who rallied in support of Hama.

"The number of those wounded is huge and hospitals cannot cope, particularly because we lack the adequate equipment," Abdel Rahman quoted a Hama hospital source as saying.

He said the crackdown on Hama came after more than 500,000 people rallied in the city on Friday following Muslim prayers during which a cleric told the congregation "the regime must go"."

[Mad Dawg Wiccan]

Syrian security forces backed by tanks and snipers launched a ferocious assault Sunday on defiant cities and towns, killing at least 70 people and possibly many more as the regime raced to crush dissent ahead of Ramadan. Corpses littered the streets after a surge in violence that drew widespread international condemnation.
Estimates of the death toll, which were impossible to verify, ranged from around 75 people to nearly 140 on a day when the attacks began before dawn and witnesses said they were too frightened to collect corpses from the streets.

The worst carnage was in Hama, the scene of a 1982 massacre by President Bashar Assad's late father and predecessor and a city with a history of defiance against 40 years of Assad family rule. Hospitals there were overwhelmed with bloodied casualties, suggesting the death toll could rise sharply, witnesses said.

President Barack Obama called the reports "horrifying" and said Assad is "completely incapable and unwilling" to respond to the legitimate grievances of the Syrian people.


www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43960595/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/


Our next war?

[deziloooooo]

This is another article that explains the reasoning of Assad and supporters, possible puts it into a better light as to what is happening in that country..and why , and posible consequences, giving a bit of hope for the future, possible, because to continue as it is now just does not compute..it is , hopefully, only a matter of time before the terror will be ended.
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english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/07/201173113293285318.html
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[Click on link to read complete article]
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Author sums up the regime as the following..

"In fact, the rule of the Assads, who may now be left with little or no recourse to protection against the rage which will be spewed at them in the crowded mosques and public squares during the holy month of Ramadan, is in deep crisis. The Assad dynasty is finished and Bashar is its last "prince". Whatever legitimacy the Assads have so far derived from anti-Israeli resistance by proxy via Hizbullah and Hamas is also no more.

The killing campaign being waged at the moment against many cities and towns all over Syria, such as Hama and Deir ez-Zor, is meant to quell the protests before Ramadan. Ramadan draws crowds to mosques even more than the weekly Friday sermon, and at a time of uprisings, the last thing Maher Assad wants is for such space to become platforms for greater mobilisation against the dynasty.

Luckily for Syrians, the Assads cannot whimsically amend the lunar calendar (like they did to the constitution to hand over power from father to son in 2000) to postpone Ramadan."
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Opinion

In Syria, the government is the real rebel

The increasing violence in Syria is transforming the country into a Hobbesian state.
Larbi Sadiki Last Modified: 31 Jul 2011 14:30


Mass protests have roiled Hama, where Bashar Assad's father Hafez crushed an Islamist uprising in 1982, killing more than 20,000 [REUTERS]

"There have been many setbacks during the "Arab Spring". None, however, are more flagrantly obvious than in Syria. This leads to one question across the Middle East: Who is the rebel?

The protesters who peacefully demand civil, political and economic rights from monarchical republics and deligitimised ruling elites? Or the states which, such as in Libya and Syria, find themselves literally in a "state of nature", rendering life for the citizen dangerous?

The Assads' 'Leviathan'

Hobbes comes to mind so naturally. More than any other, this English philosopher grasped the ins and outs of human passions and failings, which drive human beings to become their own worst enemies.

Right now, the Assads are in a similar state of affairs. And these affairs disqualify them from ruling over a state and a people, which they are butchering. If only Bashar Assad, who has now bared his political canines to all, had widened his search outside optometry to see the contractual world constructed by Hobbes. Had he done so, he would have learned that strong government does not mean flexing martial muscle.

The excessive use of force against Hama is not an expression of strong and rational government. It is illegal coercion that could one day land the ruling Assads and the top brass of their coercive apparatus in the International Criminal Court.

Hobbes' political theory focuses on the disorder and civil strife caused by unruly human passions, as he knew well from his study of the English Civil War.

Maher Assad's tanks are sinking an entire nation in a "state of nature", and that, for Hobbes, results in a "war of all against all". This is the risk facing the "Arab Spring" in Libya, Yemen, and of course, in our case here, Syria.

[Deleted]

He said the crackdown on Hama came after more than 500,000 people rallied in the city on Friday following Muslim prayers during which a cleric told the congregation "the regime must go"."

"Syrian forces have killed nearly 142 people

A rally of 500,000 people & 142 people dead after calling up 1,500 tanks? They must have some really poor shots in their military!

[handyman2]

Sounds like it is time for another black hawk and special forces attack at night on the palace.
Yep Poor shots they are old tex. Lower that tank barrel down to street level and they would have killed that many with one blast.

[Deleted]

Makes me angry with all the people who don't even bother to vote in our country . . .

[deziloooooo]

Jul 31, 2011 16:45:34 GMT -5 @oldtex said:

He said the crackdown on Hama came after more than 500,000 people rallied in the city on Friday following Muslim prayers during which a cleric told the congregation "the regime must go"."

"Syrian forces have killed nearly 142 people

A rally of 500,000 people & 142 people dead after calling up 1,500 tanks? They must have some really poor shots in their military!

There are times where jokes a good part of these types of forums old, but i fail to find humor in yours..that's 142 people, young, old, fathers , mothers, daughters sons..grand children who won't be going home to dinner , their familys..ever.

If you read further , hospitals are filled with wounded, possible amputations, belly wounds, in pain, poor facilities available for care of..possible those #'s will increas the fatalities to meet your standards o a terrible event, possible not.

We were all and still are horrified with the happning in Norway..young people, innocents..I will guess even you had a reaction, so why such a reaction here by you on this event?

[ed1066]

Gotta make way for the Muslim Brotherhood!

[deziloooooo]

River running red with blood..Syria revolt
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This hasn't gone away, just off the front pages of the worlds media, the revolt and put down of by Assad in Syria, but there is just to much on the plates of most powers who might be able to influence a different scenario right now, just a fact of realism.

We, USA , have a election coming up, financial problems, still involved in one war and a bit in a few others, and a populace who is tired of all the involvement and will shut their eyes to what is happening in a place few of us are really knowledgeable or concerned about.

European powers, small and large are th same, a neighboring State who might be concerned has their own problems with their military which is tying their hands, two major powers, Russia and China, are all ways against any intervention into sovereign States doings, no matter what conceived horrors might be being performed on thee citizens, possible because they don't want any one questioning their actions if turn about is fair play, having to do the same to dissidents in their society's.

Thus the slaughter goes on..
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www.debka.com/article/21176/
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[Click on link to read complete article]
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The Orontes River runs red as Syrian anti-aircraft guns pound Hama


DEBKAfile Special Report August 4, 2011, 10:51 AM (GMT+02:00)

Bodies of Hama citizens in the Orontes

"Horrifying images of bodies and limbs floating in the Orontes River in Hama were aired by Syrian state television early Thursday, Aug. 4. Contrary to official claims that they belonged to Syrian soldiers torn to pieces by protesters, debkafile reports they are the victims of Syrian tank fire and ZU-23 automatic anti-aircraft artillery trained on residential buildings and streets in the last 48 hours as the dead pile up in the streets.

Citizens cowering in their homes are throwing the dead out of windows and off roofs into the river.

They are reliving the terrors of the massacre President Bashar Assad's father inflicted on this city of half-a-million in 1982 which left 30,000 dead.

Our sources report that the Syrian ruler decided to take advantage of three events for unleashing an all-out assault against rebellious Hama:"

{Three events are following ..click link to read ]

[Value Buy]

What?
They no longer bury their dead?
Throw them out of windows into the river?
I seriously doubt they do this.
Everyone has a window overlooking the river, I guess.
Dezi, maybe a little political salting agenda going on?

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

Aug 4, 2011 10:36:07 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

What?
They no longer bury their dead?
Throw them out of windows into the river?
I seriously doubt they do this.
Everyone has a window overlooking the river, I guess.
Dezi, maybe a little political salting agenda going on?

...well, you do a lot of things differently while under siege...

...I wonder if dez realizes that news like this might only serve to bolster many's views on isolationism... either to avoid another war... or to reload for one... and the USA has shackled itself so dramatically with their deficit spending, that we could not now be the "world's hero" that we once were...

[mmhmm]

Actually, Value Buy, this isn't as far-fetched as it might seem at first glance. You can't just let a body rot in your house, and these folks can't get out to bury their dead if they're being shot at. While everyone doesn't have a window (or roof) overlooking the river, some certainly do. There are old homes and a few apartment buildings along the river in Hama. While I don't think it's happening to a huge degree, it's not out of the question for this kind of thing to be happening at times, and in spots.

[Value Buy]

Aug 4, 2011 11:04:05 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Actually, Value Buy, this isn't as far-fetched as it might seem at first glance. You can't just let a body rot in your house, and these folks can't get out to bury their dead if they're being shot at. While everyone doesn't have a window (or roof) overlooking the river, some certainly do. There are old homes and a few apartment buildings along the river in Hama. While I don't think it's happening to a huge degree, it's not out of the question for this kind of thing to be happening at times, and in spots.

Ok, but the river running red with blood?
I don't think that has happened since the days of Moses and Pharoh on the Nile.
Are we talking Biblical implications here, or just some over rated political spin?

[mmhmm]

Heh. Yeah, that statement is a bit ... melodramatic, I'll agree. I've seen it used before, however. We'll call it "literary license".

[wyouser]

not entirely out of the question...read comments about the water around bridges during some civil war battles or read accounts from survivors about the color and state of water under bridges during the Bataan death march immediatly after the japanese overran the place.

[wyouser]

specifically reference "Corregidor, the end of the line" by Eric Morris ,Stein and Day publishers 1981. Or The Franco Prussian War by Geoffrey Wawro Cambridge University Press, 2003 Both relate the color "red " in water or bodies being deposited on the streets (during the seige of Paris)

[mmhmm]

I think the saying "The rivers run red with blood" is used more for effect, in most cases. While it might not be true in the literal sense, it illustrates the idea of violent civil unrest quite well. I've heard "The streets will run with blood" used in this country by those who would foment rebellion against the government.

[mmhmm]

I recall the Russians in Leningrad putting their dead outside the home during the seige of Leningrad. Fortunately for them, it was winter and the bodies froze.

[Deleted]

We were all and still are horrified with the happening in Norway..young people, innocents..I will guess even you had a reaction, so why such a reaction here by you on this event?

Sure I'll answer Deziloooooo. First off I wasn't horrified by the event in Norway nor by these events. I've been close to a fair am out of death in my life. I've known most of the people that died. I've seen body bags with bodies that you could pick up with one hand (& I knew the person in that bag). Maybe you would say that I've been hardened by it but I would say that I understand death more than most (or at least some) & for that matter people more than most (or at least some).

First off everyone dies. Heroic measures to save someone doesn't save them. At most it delays their death. Then there's your title of this thread. River running red with blood....At bit of an overstatement or exaggeration. If every drop of blood was emptied from 142 bodies in the same river & it ran red with blood, at most it would be a creek. That's not a lot of people (how many are killed on our highways every day? How many in a week?).

Also I've learned not to get upset over something that I can't do anything about nor would I feel the need to do something if I could. Show me an example of the government (or anybody) killing an American citizen in this country & yes I might act. If it happens in front of me I probably will act. But I'm not going to fly to Africa for something I read on line or in the newspaper. Nor am I going to waste much time thinking about it or crying over it. Those people are dead & no matter what anybody says or does they will still be dead. Beating your breast here on these boards & saying how horrible it is really does less than nothing & (I feel) if just giving lip service to the event while proclaiming what a good person you are to feel this way. What's more history has shown that unless we want to invade there is no way to stop them from killing each other (if we invade, we get to kill them so it's about the same difference).

Lastly I would wonder why you said "I will guess even you had a reaction, so why such a reaction here by you on this event?" It seems that your surprised somehow. You must realize that nothing said here has any influence on that event, nor could it. Yet you expect everybody else (or at least me) to have the same emotional response as you do even though that response is obviously a waste of time & effort?

If I could go back in time (knowing what I know now) I would certainly try to kill Hitler. But right now after the event I'm not going to beat my chest & howl to the stars "Why", nor am I going to come on here & really discuss it. The fact is that society has dangerous nuts within it. They not only kill people but they do other things that nutty people do. Sad but that is life.

[deziloooooo]

Aug 4, 2011 11:43:09 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

I think the saying "The rivers run red with blood" is used more for effect, in most cases. While it might not be true in the literal sense, it illustrates the idea of violent civil unrest quite well. I've heard "The streets will run with blood" used in this country by those who would foment rebellion against the government.

Actually mmhmm in this on, there is a picture of two bodies, possible recently killed , the water is running red, and who knows how many civiliens are in that river...possible running in red is not just a cliche in this case..

[deziloooooo]

Aug 4, 2011 12:29:41 GMT -5 @oldtex said:

We were all and still are horrified with the happening in Norway..young people, innocents..I will guess even you had a reaction, so why such a reaction here by you on this event?

Sure I'll answer Deziloooooo. First off I wasn't horrified by the event in Norway nor by these events. I've been close to a fair am out of death in my life. I've known most of the people that died. I've seen body bags with bodies that you could pick up with one hand (& I knew the person in that bag). Maybe you would say that I've been hardened by it but I would say that I understand death more than most (or at least some) & for that matter people more than most (or at least some).

First off everyone dies. Heroic measures to save someone doesn't save them. At most it delays their death. Then there's your title of this thread. River running red with blood....At bit of an overstatement or exaggeration. If every drop of blood was emptied from 142 bodies in the same river & it ran red with blood, at most it would be a creek. That's not a lot of people (how many are killed on our highways every day? How many in a week?).

Also I've learned not to get upset over something that I can't do anything about nor would I feel the need to do something if I could. Show me an example of the government (or anybody) killing an American citizen in this country & yes I might act. If it happens in front of me I probably will act. But I'm not going to fly to Africa for something I read on line or in the newspaper. Nor am I going to waste much time thinking about it or crying over it. Those people are dead & no matter what anybody says or does they will still be dead. Beating your breast here on these boards & saying how horrible it is really does less than nothing & (I feel) if just giving lip service to the event while proclaiming what a good person you are to feel this way. What's more history has shown that unless we want to invade there is no way to stop them from killing each other (if we invade, we get to kill them so it's about the same difference).

Lastly I would wonder why you said "I will guess even you had a reaction, so why such a reaction here by you on this event?" It seems that your surprised somehow. You must realize that nothing said here has any influence on that event, nor could it. Yet you expect everybody else (or at least me) to have the same emotional response as you do even though that response is obviously a waste of time & effort?

If I could go back in time (knowing what I know now) I would certainly try to kill Hitler. But right now after the event I'm not going to beat my chest & howl to the stars "Why", nor am I going to come on here & really discuss it. The fact is that society has dangerous nuts within it. They not only kill people but they do other things that nutty people do. Sad but that is life.

Old , with out getting in a pissing contest with you, who experienced more, seen more, involved in, taken more lives possible, had closer calls yadda..many of us have been there, many have experienced and yes I am still horrified, possible because of experiences that have happened personally..

To ignore and just don't bother mentioning, possible your way of dealing with.

To me, a mention and a post as due to events..in my opinion, I explained IMHO why I feel nothing will be done actively in this case , and if you read the rest of the article, would have to click on the link, the authors feelings of why Assad and his people,

[he is being advised on the put down of by Iranians who are experienced in these type of things from their own countrys put downs of decent by the populace]

three reasons he is taking these actions feeling he will be able to get away with them...

Probably correct in the reasonings of IMHO.

[deziloooooo]

Aug 4, 2011 10:45:57 GMT -5 BeenThere...DoneThat... said:

Aug 4, 2011 10:36:07 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

What?
They no longer bury their dead?
Throw them out of windows into the river?
I seriously doubt they do this.
Everyone has a window overlooking the river, I guess.
Dezi, maybe a little political salting agenda going on?

...well, you do a lot of things differently while under siege...

...I wonder if dez realizes that news like this might only serve to bolster many's views on isolationism... either to avoid another war... or to reload for one... and the USA has shackled itself so dramatically with their deficit spending, that we could not now be the "world's hero" that we once were...

My posts are not done because I am thinking of consequences..whether in favor of or not of action by my country...that i might be or not be in favor of..

What I realize from the incursone in Libya..what seems to be a slame dunk on paper, when it comes to combate, use of force, as the Generals say and the Non Coms who have been there before even know even more, as soon as the first shot is fired all plans and scenarios are out the window in most cases..

I am just posting happenings that to me are important, if not so to others , I suggest, just scroll or ignore...

[mmhmm]

Aug 4, 2011 12:34:08 GMT -5 deziloooooo said:

Aug 4, 2011 11:43:09 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

I think the saying "The rivers run red with blood" is used more for effect, in most cases. While it might not be true in the literal sense, it illustrates the idea of violent civil unrest quite well. I've heard "The streets will run with blood" used in this country by those who would foment rebellion against the government.

Actually mmhmm in this on, there is a picture of two bodies, possible recently killed , the water is running red, and who knows how many civiliens are in that river...possible running in red is not just a cliche in this case..

It may well not be, dezi. We're not there, thankfully, and don't have to witness these events. I'm truly sorry for the people of Syria. It's an amazing country with amazing history.

[safeharbor37]

It's all a matter of perspective. This is pretty much what happened when the Confederate States of America tried to exert their independence. In other words, these people are trying to overthrow the Syrian government ~ they're rebels, traitors.
The death toll is a pittance compared with the toll in the Civil War which was resolved with no little slaughter, burning of food, rape and pillage. But that was a good thing.
It all depends on which side wins ~ and which side you're on ~ but of course, a little hypocrisy is still comfortable.

[Deleted]

What I realize from the incursone in Libya..what seems to be a slam dunk on paper, when it comes to combat, use of force, as the Generals say and the Non Coms who have been there before even know even more, as soon as the first shot is fired all plans and scenarios are out the window in most cases..

Deziloooooo the ONLY way that you can protect people is to be in front of them & have weapons to kill anyone that attacks them or is about to attack them. Just dropping a bomb from the sky doesn't do it. We are not going into that country. What's more, your a liberal & if it was really being discussed about going there you wouldn't want to.

Sorry but this is one of those tear jerk stores that was written to get an emotional response out of you. In a lot of ways it reminds me about those "love" novels written for women. Both are designed to draw out that emotional response & for the same reason....To make money. People love to read this stuff & feel that emotional response so very often "facts" are either stretched or left out just to make the story better.

Remember the U.S. forces killing 12 & 14 year old kids in Nam? Emotional response stories. Sure it happened but what got left out was the hand grenade that the kid had under his clothes or the hand grenade that the last kid had that did exactly the same thing.

As for 142 people. Do you know how many people died in the world the day that these people died? How about in the U.S.? How about how many solderers die overseas that day? Sorry but 142 people on that day doesn't "touch" me.

[weltschmerz]

Aug 4, 2011 10:36:07 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

What?
They no longer bury their dead?
Throw them out of windows into the river?
I seriously doubt they do this.
Everyone has a window overlooking the river, I guess.
Dezi, maybe a little political salting agenda going on?

No, no salting going on. I saw in on our news, as well. People are afraid to leave their homes, and dispose of the dead any way they can. Some take a chance and try to bury their dead in the parks, but they get shot at.

[Deleted]

Old , with out getting in a pissing contest with you

Deziloooooo, we may disagree on a lot of things but I respect you in a lot of ways. You are one of the few semi-open minded liberals here.

[handyman2]

I saw a phone video of people dumping bodies off a bridge last night on CNN. The government claimed they were government agents killed and the rebels were dumping the ones they killed. The rebels say it was government thugs who had Killed civilians and were dumping them off the bridge. No one was sure which was which but the area where they were dumped was bright red from the bleeding corpses. That may be where the claim of rivers running red with blood. There were at least 10 bodies in the water I saw.

[Value Buy]

Aug 4, 2011 11:34:54 GMT -5 wyouser said:

not entirely out of the question...read comments about the water around bridges during some civil war battles or read accounts from survivors about the color and state of water under bridges during the Bataan death march immediatly after the japanese overran the place.

Well you are talking about soldiers fighting on a creek/riverbed killing many on each side, not a few people in apartment buildings throwing their fathers or sons into the river from a window.
A big difference

[Value Buy]

"I am just posting happenings that to me are important, if not so to others , I suggest, just scroll or ignore..."

Why?
Some of us do find it interesting. It does not mean we believe everything posted from your favorite websites. If I find it "lacking merit", I will respond.