Conundrum to end all......

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

In the ever continuing saga of my student, I need to give you all some more info.

About 3 weeks ago, I booted her out of the lab. 2 consecutive days, she could not be bothered to show up on time and I pressed on and ran the experiments. I told her that if she didn't respect me or the lab enough to be able to work, then perhaps she should not be in there. After a huge battle (part of which she made the very bad decision to throw up at me that I was gone 2 months in dealing with my hip), I told her not to let the door hit her in the ass as she left.

So she went crying to my boss.....who's a softie. My boss talked me into taking her back, on my terms. I had to tell her exactly when she needed to show up, and what we were going to do. I do have to admit, the last few weeks she has done exactly that. But it pisses me off beyond belief that HE was the one that had to convince her that she needed to do this. She could not do this at my request - despite the fact that I run his freaking research.

Earlier this week, she asked me for help in putting together her application for the perio program, with what she did in the lab this summer. I told her to write it up and I would correct it/fill it in. I did so on Tuesday. Today she asked me for a recommendation.

I am seriously not so inclined. The idea that it took the dean of research to convince her to do what I was telling her to do makes the idea of writing anything positive stick in my craw. Then, of course, I'm convinced that the only reason why she is so amenable, and has been so for the last 2 weeks is because she knew she was going to need to ask me of this, and was seeing her opportunity slip away.

So exactly when can you justify writing a recommendation that is accurate? How do you write something and not say anything positive, but not say anything negative?

Can I let out my inner karma bitch?

[Cheesy FL-Vol]

Conundrums like this are exactly why I practically begged to get out of management after a year, and why I will never do management again! I have zero patience for crap that people like this do.

I can't give you a professional answer, but one thing this girl learned is that she can cry on someone's shoulder and get her way, and that is probably what she is going to do the rest of her working life regardless of what you write. If it were me, I would be as neutral as possible. Her next employer is going to be the one stuck with her.

[suesinfl]

Jul 21, 2011 19:30:10 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Can I let out my inner karma bitch?

Sure you can. Is there anyway that you can write something along the lines that ays she was there, some of the work that she has done, but not saying that the work/time there/problems, etc. was acceptable?

Basically, just saying that she was in the program. Then it is up to her to decide if she uses it or not. It just might be a wakeup call that her attitude/work ethic needs to change....or maybe not.

[oreo]

A lot of companies these days don't want the liability of their managers writing recommendations so you can maybe say that you aren't able to do it for that reason. I don't think you should do it if you don't want to. Most places these days allow you to say "She worked for me from x to y and is eligible for rehire (which means they were not fired for cause)".

I know a guy at my last job worked with a contractor. When the contract was up the contractor gave him as a reference. He didn't answer his phone for a few months because he didn't want to be a reference for the contractor. He didn't dislike the contractor but didn't like the contractor's work so he didn't want to say anything at all.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

I'd say no too - unless you could word it in a way that said she "could possibly work well under strict guidance and supervision". That way you're giving her a recommendation, it just won't do her much good.

[Peace Of Mind]

I don't blame you one bit for feeling as you do, but you know your professionalism will win out. I would say, sure I will do that. Now do me a favor and explain to me why you couldn't listen to me when I told/asked you to do ....?

And if you don't like her answer - change your mind about doing her the favor.

[swamp]

I'd say, "No, you really don't want me to write a recommendation for you."

[Sammy]

Make it short and neutral. The reader will read between the lines.

[bring in the new year]

"Honey, what would you like me to say? That only after being threatened with being fired did X perform to my satisfaction?"

Is there any reason you have to give her a recommendation? Because if you don't I would kindly point out to her that a recommendation is based on all of your work - not the work you do the last two weeks before the recommendation is due.

And if she doesn't know the difference between goofing off and medical leave, I would not want to recommend her to anyone else.

[Mad Dawg Wiccan]

I don't know exactly what kind of work you do in your lab, but I would ask - is the work she does accurate, reliable and timely? If so, I would give her a written recommendation that her performance is good but that she has serious problems with attendance and respect for authority. I doubt she would try to use it.

[Peace Of Mind]

Here you go, Mich. I highly recommend this letter of recommendation:

To Whom It May Concern:

Worthless student, can always be found

hard at work in her cubicle. She works independently, without

wasting time talking to colleagues. Worthless never

thinks twice about assisting fellow students, and she always

finishes given assignments on time… Often she takes extended

measures to complete her work, sometimes skipping coffee

breaks. Worthless is a dedicated individual who has absolutely no

vanity in spite of her high accomplishments and profound

knowledge in her field. I firmly believe that Worthless can be

classed as a high-calibre student, the type that cannot be

dispensed with. Consequently, I truly recommend that Worthless be

promoted to the perio program, and a proposal will be

executed as soon as possible.



Yours Sincerely


Mich

Addendum……

The idiot was standing over my shoulder while I wrote this recommendation.

Kindly re-read only every second line.

[Sharon]

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

LOL POM! I love it!

I don't know exactly what kind of work you do in your lab, but I would ask - is the work she does accurate, reliable and timely?

Yes, but I don't trust her to do anything that will foul the project up at this point. I want it done and I want it done NOW. So I"m doing all the stuff myself that would have the largest impact upon the data. We just cannot afford the supplies to repeat things indefinitely.

Right now, I've got her doing data entry and as far as I can tell, she's been pretty accurate. I did have to laugh this week when I told her that once the data's collected, I likely would not be able to do any stats on it for awhile. I've got a paper that needs to go out and I need to start the data for my thesis. Both of those are going to take priority to this. She wanted to know if she could do the stats, so I asked her if she had ever taken a statistics class. Nope.

I'm not in the mood to teach Statistics 101, so she's just going to have to cool her heels. However, abstracts for the research meeting are due at the end of Sept., so I may make a rough run at it before then in order to write an abstract.

[Sammy]

POM, that is priceless!

Mich, I'd sit her down and ask her what she would write if she were in your shoes. Remind her that if she lies her nose will grow.

[Apple]

Lol, Pom--love it!

I would not be able to write a letter of recommendation other than she "was assigned to me on these dates". I just can't do it. Good luck.

[taz157]

POM - Love it!

[Peace Of Mind]

Thanks everybody!


taz - It's nice to see you over here! 11 days! Woo hoo!!!

[midjd]

I've had to ghostwrite most of my own recommendation letters... you might want to have her do that and then just refuse to sign it if she exaggerates/lies at all (it sounds like she'd have to to make it a "recommendation") ;D

[Befferz]

Hopefully you can just refuse. Tell her that based on her work throughout this project, you really don't feel comfortable giving her the kind of recommendation that would aid her in furthering her education.

[Deleted]

Jul 21, 2011 19:42:20 GMT -5 @rj said:

You guys are way to nice. Id say hell no

Then she will do the same thing she did before and go crying to the dean and get him to write it up. From the sounds of things he would write a glowing recommendation.

Don't write a good recommendation for someone that has earned it. One of your colleagues will be reading it. As long as you don't say she was wonderful or would be a great addition to any team the person reading it should get the point.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

That's why I made the wording suggestion I did - it's a letter of recommendation, but anyone reading it will get the author's underlying meaning. Nobody would want to hire someone they have to constantly babysit or walk through projects.

[Deleted]

So exactly when can you justify writing a recommendation that is accurate? How do you write something and not say anything positive, but not say anything negative?

Mich1 Were you ever in the military? When you do appraisals there they have (or had) mostly perfected the technique of saying without saying. On first read the appraisal will look ok, even strong. The second read will always leave the impression that your either talking around something or not stating that the person is lacking in some area(s). That's what you need to write.

[Cheesy FL-Vol]

I agree with what many here have said. Keeping it very neutral, the girl may view it as a glowing recommendation, but to those who regularly read recommendations the neutrality of it is going to speak volumes. Often what is NOT said is a more powerful form of communication. It is all about verbal gymnastics!

[Bluerobin]

On her last day, as she is walking out the door, give her the worst possible letter your inner bitch can write.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

There are always personality conflicts whereever you work. And, you can look at it in a couple of different ways. She had a rough start, but now is she doing the work in a way that she should be doing that?

For God's sake, Snerd. This isn't a personality conflict. This is a woman who does not feel inclined to show up when I have scheduled experiments to run because she does not want to get out of bed in the morning. This is a woman who despite the fact that I have developed this work for the last 20 years, she would not do it the way that I showed her to do it - to the detriment of the experiment.

This is a woman that despite the fact that I told her what she needed to do, she would passive-aggressively ignore my requests until I had to get my boss make the request. In fact, the only reason why she is now showing up when I tell her to is because my boss told her that this is her last chance.

She's a very nice woman and if I was not training her, I'd have no problem socializing with her. But this is a job that must get done and she hindered me every step of the way.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Often what is NOT said is a more powerful form of communication. It is all about verbal gymnastics!

I do realize this, but have not had a lot of experience walking this minefield.

[CarolinaKat]

mich,

I'd either decline, or I'd write what needed to be said, highlighting both good and negative qualities. I'd also put it in a sealed and initaled/signed envelope (which was standard for our reccomendation letters, if you wanted to know what it said, you needed to ask for an extra copy)

[Bluerobin]

Mich, # 27 is your letter.

[Cheesy FL-Vol]

Jul 22, 2011 7:42:53 GMT -5 @daphne87 said:

Jul 22, 2011 7:15:57 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

This is a woman who does not feel inclined to show up when I have scheduled experiments to run because she does not want to get out of bed in the morning. This is a woman who despite the fact that I have developed this work for the last 20 years, she would not do it the way that I showed her to do it - to the detriment of the experiment.

This is a woman that despite the fact that I told her what she needed to do, she would passive-aggressively ignore my requests until I had to get my boss make the request. In fact, the only reason why she is now showing up when I tell her to is because my boss told her that this is her last chance.

She's a very nice woman and if I was not training her, I'd have no problem socializing with her. But this is a job that must get done and she hindered me every step of the way.

I think you just wrote the letter....

The thing with using something like this is that if the woman's actual work meets or exceeds expectations, regardless of her work ethics, that is not reflected in these statements.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

I'd say no because she doesn't deserve one. I HATE it when students show up and do squat but still expect a recommendation so they can get into whatever program they want to get into. How are you going to handle this program if you can't even be bothered to show up a handful of days during the summer?

A friend of mine laughed in one student's face when she showed up wanting to do work in her lab. She was like "Really, do you HONESTLY think that DQ and I don't talk to each other?"

She never dared ask me for a recommendation, which was the only smart thing she ever did during her time in our lab.