Economy, Family expectations or Damn kids

[thyme4change]

I come from a highly educated and hard working, well compensated family. Everyone is an engineer (at one time or another), except me and my hubby - and we do "okay."

I have 1 niece that has graduated college, and 2 more (1 neice, 1 nephew) that are just about to graduate. All three of these kids are straight A, valedictorian types. The one who graduated was one of the something-laudes with the ropes and what not. (I don't know which is which, and I don't know what she was.) Hard working, smart kids. They come from 2 different sets of parents.

I don't see any intention from any of the three of them to work any time soon. Lots of talk about going straight to graduate school. Talk of travel. Working as a waitress for just enough hours to make rent (not that there is anything wrong with waitress work.)

So, are they being beaten down by the lack of jobs. Are the best college graduates being told that they must go to graduate school before starting work? Is this how 20-something year olds think? Were my sisters bad mothers that didn't instill a work ethic outside of school? Do they not get the job-earning connection? Does my family over-encourage education? What's wrong with my family? How can I stop it from happening with my kids?

(Another will be a college freshman this year and she is already talking about graduate school. But, I have faith that the other one will turn out normal. He just finished his first year of college.)

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

I know a lot of people told me they were going to graduate school because "they couldn't think of anything else to do".

Well what are you going to do once you are out of graduate school?

It also depends on what they want to do if it makes more sense to go straight thru or not. 20/20 hindsight since I entered academia I might have been better off pay wise and options wise to have gone straight thru to graduate school, but it is not required to have one to do what I do.

With DD I want her to do a lot of homework on her field before deciding what to do. When I graduated most jobs in my field wanted a bachelor's. Since I was unsure of what direction I wanted to take in my field (the higher I go with my degree, the more narrow/speacilized I become) I decided to stop at my bachelor's degree and see if I wanted to remain in my field.

Now times are changing and more and more jobs want master's degrees. I am in a position now that I can get it paid for 100% by my employer. So if I am going to do it now is the time.

I'll encourage DD to think the same way. Focus on where you want to go and how you need to get there. Do you need a graduate degree to even get your foot in the door or can you afford to wait? Could you find a job that will pay for your graduate degree rather than going straight thru?

I am not opposed to going straight thru and personally I am starting to think that might have been easier because now that I am 6 years out of school it's a lot more daunting to think about entering the classroom again.

[HoneyBBQ]

I went straight to grad school. Then again, my BS was in a field where advanced education is basically a requirement. I was really burned out after 9/10 years of straight school when it was said and done. I wish I had taken a gap year and traveled. But, I have my PhD and make good money and have a good job. Can't complain.

[zibazinski]

Maybe they just want to take a break for a little bit? DF's DD talks a lot about grad school but that is because she likes not working and doesn't like having to work. Really pissed her off this summer that she had to work as opposed to last summer when she spent the summer playing around while "job searching." She did some major hinting but I was so proud of DF for squelching her idea of quitting her job while he paid for some fancy grad school degree for her.

[thyme4change]

I guess this wonderful gal I know is on her 14th month of "taking a break" after college. It seems like a long time to do nothing.

[steph08]

When I graduated college (4 years ago), I got a job. I thought of going to grad school but I didn't know what area to pursue. After two years in my job, I decided I liked technical writing and communication, so this December I will be finishing up the two-year program for my MA in Technical Communication. My work will have paid for it completely.

On the other hand, when my brother graduated college (7 years ago), he went to straight to grad school because he wanted a doctorate in Chemistry and to do research and get into academia maybe. So he took 6 years to do that and now he has been at a post-doc position in England for 1 year and counting, probably at least until this winter until he finds a job back in the US. He received free tuition and a stipend, though he has some student loan debt from his Ph.D. because his stipend didn't cover all his living costs.

So I am 3 years younger but ahead of him in terms of the workforce with experience, my retirement savings, etc. but I am sure he will catch up with a higher salary than me.

But we took two different paths because of what we each wanted. He didn't go on to grad school because he didn't know what he wanted. He went to grad school because he knew what he wanted and that doing his Ph.D. immediately after undergraduate was the best way for him and for his field.

[zibazinski]

It makes sense for some people and others are going because they couldn't get jobs so thought "why not?" Not smart on their part, imho.

[stats45]

I'm sure the rough labor market for new grads has something to do with it. Some students may have student loans as well, so graduate schools gives them the chance to defer payments, though often at the long-term cost of adding more debt.

Economists talk about a 'reservation wage' or the wage it takes for a person to participate in the labor market. Some students might think that it doesn't make sense to work for $25k -$35k a year and use the broader economy as an excuse to stay out of the labor market. I know a few people like this.

This seems like a horrible decision to me. Taking a little bit of time (maybe a few months to a year for travel and experiences) could make sense, but not working and waiting for the perfect job sounds like a great way to be left behind when the economy does recover.

[Phoenix84]

the reasons people choose graduate school straight away are varied. Some fields really do requie it, other students just want to "get it out of the way" some of it is the economy.

It is common to reason that if you can't find a job with your B.S that you'll go to graduate school, get more credentials, and by the time you're done the economy may pick up. Or maybe you chose the wrong field and can't find a job, so you need to go to school to train for something else.

I was in a situation like this a few years ago. Couldn't find a job, so I decided maybe I chose the wrong field so I'd go back to school for engineering. I ended up getting a job soon after I started so I quit (school that is). You may say "how do you know more school will fix the problem?" While that's true, but what's the alternative? Not work or do anything, or work a minimum wage job? People need to do something.

[zibazinski]

That's hysterical that that salary is considered beneath someone to go to work for.

[thyme4change]

I will say that my one neice probably does need to go to graduate school right away to participate in her field - but the other two are engineers. I don't think they need a masters to work.

[BeenThere...DoneThat...]

[sil]

I went to grad school about a year and a half after college because I didnt want to be the person who always had to fix the fax machine, do coffee runs for the next few years of my career. I also travelled (a lot), dated all the wrong guys, and moved cross-country on a whim.

No permanent harm done - I didnt get knocked up by the wrong guy or rack up hundreds of thousands in SL debt, or tens of thousands in cc debt, and by the time I was 25, I had a better handle on my wanderlust....and on my regular "lust". By the time I was 25, I also had my MBA and I was no longer the coffee-run girl at the office.

Perhaps it wasnt the wisest path, but I wouldn't trade my "figuring it out" years for a half-million dollar 401k

[Angel!]

Jul 8, 2011 11:37:21 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

I guess this wonderful gal I know is on her 14th month of "taking a break" after college. It seems like a long time to do nothing.

At that point I think you would have a very difficult time getting a job. A 14 month time gap to explain & new grads to compete with for employment.

Grad school is becoming a more common requirement for many jobs. I know my employer now strongly prefers a masters degree, whereas that wasn't really an issue 10 yrs ago.

ETA - I saw you were talking about engineers & wanted to add I am an engineer & at least my company now wants a masters degree.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

I didn't NEED a master's to get a job, but I sure would be making better money/be higher up on the ladder if I already had it. That's the sucky thing about academia, if you want to move up you are going to need that bigger piece of paper.

If I had gone into private I've been told that it wouldn't hurt to have it, but there isn't as much weight put on it as there is in academia.

[telephus44]

Don't forget, there's also the line of thinking "I'll earn SO MUCH MORE if I have my masters..." I'm pretty sure graduate schools still promote this type of thinking. Why earn 25K with a BA when you could earn 75K with a Masters? No, I don't believe this for a minute, but a lot of people do. Particularly if her whole family is "successful" then having "just" a BA and working a lower paying job might seem like a failure.

My sister has collected 2 masters degrees on top of her undergrad. Some of it is chasing after "success" and some of it is "I don't want to work." I find it ironic that right now she's only making about 5-10K more than I am - she's in a HCOL (Boston) while I'm in a MCOL, and she has those masters degrees that I don't.

[Tiny]

I'm seeing how much work/time my friends' kids (from sophmore in HS thru 2 year of college) put into school/extra activites that they don't really have time for the typical young inexperienced person type jobs even if they wanted one. I wouldn't say that any of these kids are lazy... they are doing all sorts of stuff.

I'm just wondering how not having any employment experience will effect them when they are 22 or older. They will be 22 and never had to deal with a difficult boss or coworker... Sure, they are getting interpersonal experience with their various activities - BUT most of the kids WANT to be at those activities and the people in charge WANT to be there - at least on some level. Employment isn't always like that - where everyone is atleast somewhat committed to the job...
I'm beginning to think maybe the thinking that kids should do everything except work while they are in HS and college needs to change to the thinking that kids SHOULD get a summer or more of actual work experience - even just flipping burgers or working retail or picking up road kill. (LOL one of my well rounded nephews worked a summer job where picking up road kill was one of the duties... LOL.)

ADDED: my neices/nephews who wanted $$ have always been able to find jobs (the one's who's parents were VERY clear about how much money the kids could count on and when the money would stop.). The neices/nephews who got (and still are) subsidized by their parents took alot more 'time off', couldn't keep jobs or used the excuse about the economy to explain why they weren't working...

I'm not sure what my friend's are doing with their kids. The only 'advice' I offered to my friend's when they complain about the cost of their kids was that they should be up front about what their kids should expect in the way of money and when the money would stop flowing...

[thyme4change]

All of these kids worked jobs of some-sort during high school and college. Typical stuff - fast food, coffee shops, bagging groceries, etc.

They did it because their parents made them, but they didn't need the money, and they worked during the times it was working for them. For example, one worked for how many ever months, and then when volleyball season started, they quit.

[Tiny]

Thyme, do any of the kids have a clear idea of what kind of work/career they are heading for and are they atleast vaguely interested in it? I have a neice with a teaching degree who refuses to teach... I think she went for the degree because she couldn't think of anything else to do and probably fell for the "it's a reliable job/source of money" advice from people.
A couple of the other kids have "generic" kinds of degrees (business, history, and something weird that I can't recall), but they are indeed working in jobs with career paths that build on their personal strengths and the skills they used getting their degrees.

I think when the kid has some idea of where they are going after graduation they do better. If ALL their plans/dreams/hopes center on graduating and they don't really think past that... that's when they run into trouble.

[thyme4change]

Actually, ATS, that might be the problem. They all know exactly what they want to do, and have it narrowly defined. I'm not sure you get that luxury coming straight out of college - especially when the economy sucks, and you didn't graduate from the best college in your field. I know my first job wasn't what I wanted to do - but it was adjacent. It got my foot in the door, and I was able to transition to my real skill set.

[stats45]

Ziba, I completely agree.

I have a friend from high school who took a while to graduate from college, and he hasn't really had a full-time job since college. He has done a good amount of temporary work, but has only worked in a full-time job for about six months over the last three years or so. His philosophy seems to be that your first job determines your long-term 'track' so you can't accept something 'not good enough'. I've given up trying to talk him out of that. He just doesn't see that the huge gap in employment with no real job experience or skill-building is much more damaging.

He is considering graduate school. That will help him 'win big' in the job lottery for his first job. Sigh...

[telephus44]

I can't help wondering if part of it too is from the "do what you love, the money will follow" advice everyone gets. Why settle for being low man on the totem pole when you should be having that dream job?

[zibazinski]

Because everyone just about started as low man on the totem pole and worked their way up to their dream job. Getting it handed to you when you haver done little or nothing else but be a professional student? Not what I would look for in a potential employee unless I was desperate.

[thyme4change]

I can't help wondering if part of it too is from the "do what you love, the money will follow" advice everyone gets.

I'm not sure that is what they were told. I'm under the impression they had two choices "Engineering" or "Engineering." My family is practical to a fault.

[thyme4change]

Actually, I shouldn't say that as an absolute, because 2 are engineers, 1 is a business major, 1 is in the medical field and I don't know what the incoming freshman is looking towards - but it could be engineering. The one guy was an engineer from the day he was born. Ever seen a nerd-baby, yup, that was him. Pocket protector in his onesie.

[tskeeter]

Part of the "I gotta go to grad school" mentality may be the result of escalating requirements for professional certifications, such as CPA or PE (Professional Engineer) licenses.

Back in the olden days, when I was taking accounting classes, a Bachelor's degree in accounting provided enough hours of accounting education to qualify you to sit for the CPA exam your final semester of school (at least in MN). Today, the number of educational hours required has increased to the point that you've basically got a Master's degree.

The fact that many kids have a lot of family support to fund their college education (seems that lots of parents these days think they owe their child a fully funded college education, including grad school) may also make those kids less anxious to get out of school and earn a couple of bucks. Let's face it. The student life is pretty cushy compared to working for a living. Not very financially lucrative, but not too many demands on you and lots of flexibility in how you use your time.

Regarding kids expressing interest in travel. I think that one of the most rewarding and educational things a new college graduate could do is to spend about three months doing some international travel. Given how globalized the economy is and how multinational large companies are, exposure to the cultures and practices of others around the world is really a part of a young person's development. Better to get it early and use the lessons learned to advance your career rather than have the lack of the exposure be a career stumbling block. These experiences are much less valuable if you wait to get them until you've been working for 20 years, like I did. In todays world, cross cultural experience is quickly becoming a requirement for professional jobs, not an option.

[haapai]

You might be surprised by just how little is taught to undergraduates in some fields and in some schools. I was pretty shocked by how unspecialized my undergraduate education was 10 years ago. The catalog of courses had all sorts of 400-level courses which seemed to be designed for undergraduates. In practice they were for graduate students. Very few undergraduate students could meet the prerequisites for these courses or fit them into their schedules. If you really wanted to learn something that required an teacher drilling a hole in your skull and funneling in knowledge, you had to go to grad school.

My experience might be specific to being an accounting major at a large university just as the 150 hour requirement was kicking in, but I somehow doubt it. How is it in the best interest of a school, especially a university with a graduate program to fill, to prepare undergraduates for the workforce? Isn't it far more profitable to convince them that they need that extra two years of loans?

[busymom]

Should kids get a part-time or summer job while still in high school? Absolutely!!

The human resource department of my current employer gives kids who have held a "real" job preference in hiring over kids who have done a lot of activities in school. The dept head says kids who have worked, even part-time, understand scheduling, being on time, training, etc.

[ejd86]

I am 24 and I went straight to graduate school, although my situation was a little different. I did a liberal arts degree in 3 years and went imemdiately to a graduate healthcare admin program, so I made my own 5-year program. My job prospects with a major in History and minor in Political Science/Econ from a state school were not too great so the healthcare admin masters provided me a career path. I always planned on getting into business anyway then health is a personal passion so it fit together pretty well.

[simser]

Actually I think now you do need advance degrees if you ever want to do research in engineering. Most of the people in my department are getting PhDs and then moving into industry. It used to be you only got a PhD in engineering if you wanted to move into academia.

And I went straight from undergrad to grad school. It's a LOT easier than going and working for a while before going back. So if you know you may want to do it eventually, getting it out of the way is a great plan.