Giving family members the Dole

[wodehouse]

It comes up regularly, posts about lending money to family members. And the lending often is a euphemism for giving. ...at least for the recipient. I always read these discussions with some interest (eg: Dark and Loop's recent blow), I like to see and help people who are trying to better themselves...that's what I did myself, but I don't like being taken advantage of as a soft touch.

I myself often feel a bit "itchy" when the subject of my poor in-laws comes up. And some of them really are poor; some by unfortunate circumstance, some by choice.

I view most of my savings as our retirement money, so that my wife and I can have a nice, relaxed, worry-free retirement. I am the sole support of our little family....I married late, no kids, and my wife is 10 years younger than me so I figure I need to account for her life after I'm dead and gone, even if she doesn't have much interest in this.

If for some reason I need to help support in-laws with the money that I work hard for, and experience a lot of stress and grief for, well then, why wouldn't I want to just take it easy like they do, so then I won't have to suffer this nasty ol' stress? Why should I of all people be the one to suffer? I'd rather just relax and chill like they do.

So as much as there may be a real need on the "demand" side of the equation, there is no corollary that there be an equal and opposite reaction on the "supply" side (from me).

I guess I have the opinion that "everybody pays their own way"...somehow; to the extent that they can, and they can certainly contribute. If they can of course. And some can't, such as my SIL and her adolescent daughter, both of whom have schizophrenia. I doubt that the DD will be able to fully support herself when she is mature. And SIL cannot do that now. But everyone must contribute what they can...I guess in that sense I am a "commie" or a socialist. As I see it there's no reason why SIL cannot help other family members with household chores in order to reciprocate any help they may give her (this is not self-serving because I live so far away that this is not possible for our household).

[wodehouse]

FIL retired early (55) with disability. His work was physical but not terribly demanding (pushing a broom doesn't seem that onerous). Personally, I think I would've tried to stick with it and continue working in order to build up retirement assets. But then I wasn't around at that time so maybe I shouldn't judge the situation.

MIL retired at same time (53) just so they could be together and enjoy retired life. How nice for her.

FIL and MIL dig deeper into debt each and every month via their line of credit. I don't see how this can go on for any extended period of time. FIL is extremely deaf, has severe vision problems, drives but probably should not, when he's not able to drive they'll have problems with their household. FIL has had knee replacements; other medical issues. MIL has congestive heart failure and diabetes, arthritis.

FIL and MIL have property back in their home country. They scraped through paying this stuff off; it's almost an illness with MIL, this obession with owning land. Drives FIL nuts with worry. So they have no cash to live on, the larder is bare, they can't cover their monthly expenses with their income. But they have land! Ostensibly all the property and land is worth $1 million...I laugh at this valuation, I really cannot believe it, but I could be wrong; but then, I just cannot see them having had so much cash available in order to buy this stuff.

One BIL's wife has a number of medical issues and is very obese, she is on disability and would have a difficult time working in any case. She has no real skill to offer either. The BIL is now "retired" because he wants to enjoy life. Sounds good! But they are always worried about money, even now when they are in their early 50's; what about 20-30 years from now? Then it turns out that late last year he was diagnosed with something like non-Hodgkin's lymphoma. Some sort of cancer affecting the lymphatic system. But very slow acting and there is no treatment he's currently getting. He's tired some but as I see it he could very well still be working...given a need. And with their own situation and that of his parents and his sister and her daughter there is certainly need.

Other BIL and his wife. Hard-working people, some common sense but prone to spending too much. Worked at same unpleasant menial jobs for many years (20 or more...the nose to the grindstone type that I admire). BIL recently obtained some computer credentials and wants to try to get some employment out of this.

SIL, on the dole from the state for mental health. I don't see any realistic chance of her ever working, let alone supporting herself. Sadly, her DD, out of wedlock, now also suffers from schizophrenia. We had been putting some money aside each month for her possible post-secondary education. Recently stopped the new contributions (what's there now will grow---hopefully---for the next several years) so that we could help them out with a current crisis. We have put a lot of cash into this situation over the past year with several months yet in store. I don't like it but it's gotta be done; it's been budgeted and I'm glad to be able to help out SIL in this situation (setting up her own household with her DD).

One 'cousin-in-law' has a young DD born with cleft lip/palate. I have sent them a tidy sum a couple times in order to help with medical expenses. This I do not begrudge at all. Actually, he and his DW are hard working and they are professionals in their home country.

There are a bunch of cousins and rag-tag relations back in the home country who are always in dire need. Fortunately we are not hit upon too often for help.

I go home and I worry about the darn lawn and landscaping, etc, the weeds and dying grass and overgrown shrubs, and I have to get out there and mow and trim and etc because I sure can't afford to pay anyone to do this for me. I worry about the air con machinery breaking down. The roof holding up. The high AC bills. Saving for retirement, etc. I have some severe chronic physical conditions myself and take a weekly shot of some nauseating cocktail that's almost as bad as the disease...but I still drag my carcass into the office each day. All the while I'm also trying to enjoy some bits of life with the luxuries that I'm able to afford due to the hard labors I perform. No one helps me out or cares about my issues. I see them like they're a bunch of 8-year olds lined up with their hands out for a few quarters, with all the understanding that those kids have.

Am I selfish? Sure, rootin' tootin' I'm a bit selfish. With the way my body feels (not great at all) I don't feel like having to work extra hard in order to cater to some other even more selfish folks who have not made good choices and are continuing in that vein.

[wodehouse]

The latest is that FIL has a "major" birthday coming up. MIL would like the 4 kids (really only 3 can pay) to throw a big banquet to honor and celebrate. To me this sounds like a wedding reception and we know what those cost! How selfish and unrealistic of MIL to think that her children should be throwing this bash just to impress distant relations and church members. She thinks that just out of the blue the 3 viable kids are going to pony up a few thousand dollars for this? The two BILs simply could not do this. I could do this pretty easily, just write a check, but I don't really see any need for me to do so. Fortunately, DW is on-board with this.


(edit: happy day! my 200th post)

[zibazinski]

You are smart as is DW. Too many spouses start to sink their family income to helping out their former family at the expense of their new family. I am not begrudging someone whose insurance didn't cover everything and they no longer have a job because they got laid off for being sick/hurt so long but it is RARELY that issue. Those family members that you spoke of all made choices and the ones that did not have the gov't tit to suck off of. That is what working people pay taxes for. YOUR hard earned money should do where YOU want it to not where others think it should go.

[midjd]

I like the airplane oxygen mask analogy - take care of yourself first, then others. Selfish? Maybe. But if you go broke trying to give everyone else a hand up, that doesn't help anyone...

[The Home 6]

Jul 7, 2011 14:08:29 GMT -5 midjd said:

I like the airplane oxygen mask analogy - take care of yourself first, then others. Selfish? Maybe. But if you go broke trying to give everyone else a hand up, that doesn't help anyone...

I think the problem with my in-laws, though, is that they think we are doing so well so it shouldn't be a problem for us to continue giving them money. We aren't living paycheck to paycheck, but we could sure be putting a lot more money away towards retirement. But MIL is probably enjoying that money we send her every month.

[reader79]

We have a couple of family members who could bring us down if we let them. I follow my mother's model - nod, look concerned, and say 'well, what are you going to do?' I am willing to donate to help out my grandmother, who is 90, and in semi-poor health. She did the right thing, and is just running out of money at this point. The rest of the able-bodied idiots can go get a job for carps sake.

[bobosensei]

THis is part of the reason I took most of our emergency fund and put it into taxable investments that we couldn't just cash out every time someone asked for money.

[midjd]

Home 6, my mom has that attitude (though thankfully she's still asking my grandpa for help, instead of DH and me...) It infuriates me, because whether or not he has the money shouldn't be the issue, and doesn't mean she's entitled to it! I wonder if she'd be a little more responsible with money if she thought her constant "borrowing" meant my grandpa would be eating cat food...

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

My brother is a mooch. It has been little amounts so we weren't really thinking until it started adding up and impacting our budget. He was the biggest leak so we cut him off. We did "hire" him to mow our lawn because we figured that at least we could put him to work for the money.

Then my DH made the mistake of giving him the money BEFORE he mowed and two weeks went by. Then he had the gall to ask us for MORE money! DH told him hell no he gave him money two weeks ago to mow and he just now mowed!

We'd be willing to let him mow again but DH made it crystal clear that if he wants money he has to mow FIRST, just like any other contractor.

So he is currently not speaking to us and is apparently pissed at us. Oh well, like DH said you proved that we can't trust you and that's your own damn fault.

[midjd]

Drama, I'm so glad to hear that your DH is on board now! And your brother has a lot of nerve to be pissed at you for expecting him to do what you paid him for... sheesh.

[wodehouse]

Drama, that's a funny story.

With me, an issue is the extreme disparity between my resources and those of my IL's. It's possibly easy for my wife to think of how much money we have and how little her family has, and how generous it would be to help out her family. But then our expenses are much greater too, for mortgage, etc. Fortunately, she realizes that her own sister is a bit of a mooch (and stole checks from DW before we were married) and keeps her in check. It's more difficult for her with her parents but she does try.

ed: And actually we are generous with gifts for them . And I even have a budgeted fund for "family handouts" (although it's not labelled that way in my budget!)

[reader79]

I've heard somewhere (possibly on the internets, lol) that lower-income/class people who come into a windfall tend to blow it by spreading it around to everyone in creation. Possibly out of guilt or something. I don't understand the whole 'let's all be poor together' gene. If you have more money, especially by way of hard work and effort, I don't see why you should be giving it away just because it's there.

[tskeeter]

Wode, your story sounds a bit like the story DW's aunt was telling about her father. Papa emigrated from Serbia at the beginning of WW I. Apparently his family back home believed the stories that the streets in America are paved with gold. Papa was besieged with a never ending stream of requests from back home. BIL broke his watch, please send Hamilton model XXX soonest, and so forth (with no offer to reimburse and no cash arriving later). And never the lowest cost brand/model. Always very specific high end goods. This continued even after Papa gave the family farm back home, that he had inherited as the only son, to his sisters. Eventually Papa got so fed up with the requests and demands that he cut off all contact with his family in Serbia.

You don't owe your wife's family the duty to support them. Regardless of whether the need arises from a legitimate inability to support themselves, or from the decision not to support themselves. No reason why you should be stressing out about how you will support them so they can be stress free in the knowledge that you are working you backside off to provide for their every need. This is why the Soviet experiment failed. A large portion of the population figured out that they could live just a comfortably by slacking off as they could be being productive. That there was no reward for those who were productive, except the increased expectation that the productive work even harder to support more and more slackers. It turned out that everybody wasn't compelled to "contribute what they could", but that they contributed what they were willing to contribute, and for too many, their contribution was less than their needs. So the system collapsed. This sounds like your in-laws. Many of them appear to be contributing less than their needs. If you are the system supporting them, you are destine for collapse. Just like the Soviet Union.

[zibazinski]

Uh, welcome to America.

[Deleted]

I keep my generosity to the small stuff in life. I have a 98-year-old aunt who I will call and ask if she needs me to pick up milk, bread, bananas, etc. before I go there to visit. She always does so I get them and refuse the repayment when she offers (she also always offers). It's a predictable script that doesn't bother me at all.

Once, however, she called me to ask if she could have $2000 to pay property taxes. Um, I knew that her house had been foreclosed on (she has somehow managed to stay in it for at least three or four years now, probably because of her age). That translated to "Would I like to pay $2000 to help out a Big Bank?" Nope, I don't think so. I avoid lost causes. My DH gave $$$ to friends of his to help them keep their house, and they lost it, anyway. I didn't say anything, but I figure once you are in the foreclosure loop, it's just a matter of time.

That said, I can be really generous . . . but, as I said, it's the small stuff. The mother of a student who couldn't pay for his funeral . . . no brainer; I contributed the first time I was asked. A student who needs graduation supplies and is already working 3 part-time jobs to help her single mom out . . . no problem. The big stuff, though, for family, friends, and students is out of my price range and out of my comfort zone.

Although I did say to my cousin that I would contribute $300 a month to her 98-year-old mom's nursing home care if she would move her out of the h-hole foreclosed place she lives in. She won't so no brainer . . . I don't do lost causes.

[zibazinski]

That should be the post of the day. Don't contribute to lost causes.

[dancinmama]

I'm all for helping people who did everything they could over the course of their lifetimes to help themselves; but for most, I rather doubt that this is the case.

Both DH and I came from families that were fiscally responsible. We both grew up being taught that any type of consumer debt (except RE mortgages) was anathema. Not having to pay all that interest alone can make a HUGE difference over a lifetime. As a result all of our siblings are self sufficient. The only parent still living is my mom and she is beyond fiscally self sufficient.

[Deleted]

"And some of them really are poor; some by unfortunate circumstance, some by choice."

I think there is a difference in there somewhere.... and i would take it into consideration.

Husbands family lives in Romania.... poor there is a whole lot different than poor here, and some of his relatives are poor... but even so, we generally pay for 1) anything his mom might want/desire to make her life easier (but she asks for very little actually)... 2) anything that would allow his brother and sister to better support themselves (tools, a horse, a class) ... and 3) anything that better provides for the children ($ for clothes, school supplies, fix a heating system in the dead of winter so no one goes cold, one of them won a chess tournament and needed to travel to compete regionally...)

[cronewitch]

Poor people who can't work need to find a way to live on what income they get. Once they downsize to something affordable I might gift them small comforts. History matters so if they didn't do good in their life I am not making them really comfortable even if I won't let them starve.

My SIL's mother abandoned 7 kids to run off with another man and drink too much. She got old and her last husband died she was penniless without even furniture. She worked years to pay off the medical bills and was managing a motel so had a furnished room. She decided to retire and move where her kids and grand kids lived. Some of the kids had visited her when they were grown but didn't know her well and were still upset about being abandoned. The 4 daughters found her low income housing and got her enough furniture for a studio apartment and some dishes and things. They would send someone to get her for holidays but didn't do much else for her. She worked a little answering phones at the apartments or giving out samples at Costco but was pretty much alone. I would go visit her with my ISO and her grandson to play cards. We always took all the beverages and snacks to not be an expense for her but nobody gave her money.

My ISO was a bad mother too, she put him in a children's home so didn't do any mothering past age 8 or so, only came to see him once. When she got old he liked her third husband so we went to visit them, when she was widowed she blew the entire inheritance in a year then told him, second husband's DD and third husbands son they needed to each give her money every month. He said no, she didn't have enough to buy food and cigarettes and pay the space rent for her single wide. She didn't do anything to help herself but had moved near her DD so would call her whining when she needed food or cigarettes. Her daughter owed her because she had taken her son from her when she was 14 and on drugs and raised him.

My mom was a good mother, saved for retirement and took care of herself and dad until he died. She is 84 and still has a few hundred thousand but if she wants anything one of us will get it for her. Next week my brother and his wife are taking her on vacation, they got an RV that has a bed for her and just build a deck and stairs to make it easy for her to get in. It is on a campsite they bought so mom will enjoy camping too. If she ran out of money she could live on her pensions, SS and contract from selling her house but we would make sure she never did without anything.