billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 37,483
Member is Online
|
Post by billisonboard on Jul 7, 2011 15:07:16 GMT -5
What if you read the story and immediately thought that this is one of those situations with a level of international legal complexity that needs to be dealt with on a rational rather than the typical emotional level that posters here use? IE, you thought....eh, just another dead tramp that probably deserved it...let's help the poor illegal alien. Obviously I'm paraphrasing just a bit here..... ... Very inaccurately. Obama is asking to stay the execution until congress approves of the UN treaty requiring it. (from the OP) The issue here appears, to my mind, to have nothing to do with this particular individual or situation. "...stay...until congress approves..." A short time to cross all the legal i's and dot all the legal t's is what this is about.
|
|
|
Post by privateinvestor on Jul 7, 2011 15:22:24 GMT -5
Isn't this case up to the Supreme Court to decide if they agree to get involved or not?? If they don't get involved then the Texas Governor can decide to let this guy live or not, I think??
|
|
floridayankee
Junior Associate
If You Don't Stand Behind Our Troops, Feel Free to Stand in Front of Them.
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:56:05 GMT -5
Posts: 7,461
|
Post by floridayankee on Jul 7, 2011 15:22:30 GMT -5
The issue here appears, to my mind, to have nothing to do with this particular individual or situation. "...stay...until congress approves..." A short time to cross all the legal i's and dot all the legal t's is what this is about. You do realize the treaty in question is the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations. The damned thing is older than me. How much more time do we need to give these idiots to finish dotting their I's and crossing their T's? Again, Bush smacked in to this brick wall and nobody in congress since even thought of writing any sort of legislation to make this treaty binding on the states. It most certainly is about this one individual at the moment because suddenly this 48 year old treaty is an emergency.
|
|
fairlycrazy23
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 27, 2010 23:55:19 GMT -5
Posts: 3,306
|
Post by fairlycrazy23 on Jul 7, 2011 15:23:36 GMT -5
ex post facto, he is screwedo
|
|
Phoenix84
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 17, 2011 21:42:35 GMT -5
Posts: 10,056
|
Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 7, 2011 16:18:11 GMT -5
"I'd imagine that most US Citizens traveling abroad are doing so legally and have papers to show that they are US Citizens. We are not allowed to ask people about citizenship. I guess this would be one of them unintended consequences."
I'm no lawyer, can someone really be arrested for a crime, convicted, and sentanced and NOBODY finds out who they are or where they come from? I thought this whole big issue with liberals and the Arizona law was law enforcement officers asking unarrested individuals about their immigration status. I didn't realize that anyone who is picked up for a crime cannot have their legal status confirmed. I thought having to contact the embassy/counselate would be one of the reasons to determine someone's citizenship status.
And didn't this guy have a defense? Wouldn't it be their job to address this before/during the trial? And it's been a long time, why is this suddenly a big issue 17 years after he was convicted? I think it's just a ploy by the defense to stop the execution and get him re tried, trying to waste time and taxpayer money. Obama is just trying to pander to the latino vote
|
|
Phoenix84
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 17, 2011 21:42:35 GMT -5
Posts: 10,056
|
Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 7, 2011 16:19:30 GMT -5
"Again, Bush smacked in to this brick wall and nobody in congress since even thought of writing any sort of legislation to make this treaty binding on the states. It most certainly is about this one individual at the moment because suddenly this 48 year old treaty is an emergency."
From what I've read, congress has attempted to pass a bill to support the treaty but it's failed every time during different sessions.
|
|
steff
Senior Associate
I'll sleep when I'm dead
Joined: Dec 30, 2010 17:34:24 GMT -5
Posts: 10,772
|
Post by steff on Jul 7, 2011 19:29:04 GMT -5
Humberto Leal Garcia Jr., a Mexican national convicted of raping and killing a 16-year-old girl in 1994, was executed by lethal injection in Texas Thursday evening. The Supreme Court earlier denied a stay of execution for the convicted killer, despite opposition from the Obama administration and the Mexican government. Leal was pronounced dead at 6:21 p.m. CT (7:21 p.m. ET), according to a corrections spokeswoman. www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/07/07/texas.mexican.execution/index.html
|
|
humok
Established Member
Joined: Dec 25, 2010 9:33:39 GMT -5
Posts: 265
|
Post by humok on Jul 7, 2011 19:35:41 GMT -5
Well...might make it hard on Americans getting arrested in foreign countries?......Does he have his head in the sand or what....All he has to do is look at how Americans are treated "NOW" and see that they already get much worse treatment in foreign countries than we would ever treat foreigners here. Any one convicted of a crime that has capital punishment (not with circumstantial evidence) should not pass go, not collect 200 dollars and just be taken out quickly and humanely. Foreign or not.
|
|
handyman2
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 29, 2010 23:56:33 GMT -5
Posts: 3,087
|
Post by handyman2 on Jul 7, 2011 20:17:43 GMT -5
A clear case of good riddence.
|
|
Value Buy
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 17:57:07 GMT -5
Posts: 18,680
Today's Mood: Getting better by the day!
Location: In the middle of enjoying retirement!
Favorite Drink: Zombie Dust from Three Floyd's brewery
Mini-Profile Name Color: e61975
Mini-Profile Text Color: 196ce6
|
Post by Value Buy on Jul 7, 2011 22:31:39 GMT -5
Humberto Leal Garcia Jr., a Mexican national convicted of raping and killing a 16-year-old girl in 1994, was executed by lethal injection in Texas Thursday evening. The Supreme Court earlier denied a stay of execution for the convicted killer, despite opposition from the Obama administration and the Mexican government. Leal was pronounced dead at 6:21 p.m. CT (7:21 p.m. ET), according to a corrections spokeswoman. www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/07/07/texas.mexican.execution/index.htmlYes, and his last words were, I am sorry for the pain I have caused. "Viva Mexico!" Since living here since 2 years of age, maybe he should have gone back to the homeland at the age of 18 or so..... And last but not least, "Let's get this show on the road." Amen!
|
|
SweetVirginia
Well-Known Member
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 17:56:15 GMT -5
Posts: 1,360
|
Post by SweetVirginia on Jul 7, 2011 22:40:34 GMT -5
A clear case of good riddence. Amnesty advocates make the claim that those who have been brought here, through no fault of their own, should be "Americans." And those same people argue that this monster, who was brought here when he was 2 years old, should be given the rights of "Foreigners." Even though this guy knows no other "homeland" than the U.S. Those who are "pro illegal aliens" cannot have it both ways. I am so glad that this monster got what he deserved. Whether he was an American born citizen, a legal resident, or an illegal alien, he deserved to die for his heinous crime.
|
|
Phoenix84
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 17, 2011 21:42:35 GMT -5
Posts: 10,056
|
Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 7, 2011 23:08:23 GMT -5
The more I think about it the more I don't buy the argument that it will be harmful to Americans traveling abroad. Why would any other country besides Mexico care, or at least care enough to try and "get revenge" for someone who didn't even belong to them? Only country I can see it mattering to would be Mexico, and I don't think they've ever cooperated with the U.S on anything.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 4, 2024 19:14:42 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2011 23:12:22 GMT -5
I guess those 'anti- illegal alients' can't have it both ways either... if this guy is basically an American since he's been here most of his life... then the DREAM ACT should be passed...
|
|
fairlycrazy23
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 27, 2010 23:55:19 GMT -5
Posts: 3,306
|
Post by fairlycrazy23 on Jul 7, 2011 23:14:06 GMT -5
The more I think about it the more I don't buy the argument that it will be harmful to Americans traveling abroad. Why would any other country besides Mexico care, or at least care enough to try and "get revenge" for someone who didn't even belong to them? Only country I can see it mattering to would be Mexico, and I don't think they've ever cooperated with the U.S on anything. Countries that want Americans to visit will tend to treat Americans well. Maybe it will prevent Mexicans from coming here for fear of not getting there Consular consult when they commit rape and murder. Maybe if the Leahy's bill gets passed, States will start to use it to assert that they need to determine the status of individuals so that they can be prepared to give them access to there Consulate. Also, I don't see how seeing the Mexican consulate would have made any difference, he had due process.
|
|
SweetVirginia
Well-Known Member
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 17:56:15 GMT -5
Posts: 1,360
|
Post by SweetVirginia on Jul 7, 2011 23:25:04 GMT -5
I guess those 'anti- illegal alients' can't have it both ways either... if this guy is basically an American since he's been here most of his life... then the DREAM ACT should be passed... So you would have liked to see this monster, Humberto Leal (and others like him), recieve Amensty (thru a dream act) , since he was illegally brought here when he was 2 years old?
|
|
steff
Senior Associate
I'll sleep when I'm dead
Joined: Dec 30, 2010 17:34:24 GMT -5
Posts: 10,772
|
Post by steff on Jul 7, 2011 23:26:50 GMT -5
This isn't the first time this situation has happened in Texas. It's also not the first time that the execution went ahead with no stay. Pena & Ertman murders.... The offenders were sentenced into the Texas Department of Criminal Justice (TDCJ) system. Peter Cantu, José Medellín, Derrick Sean O'Brien, Efrain Perez, and Raul Villareal received death sentences. Venancio Medellín, the brother of José Medellín, was 14 at the time of the murder. Venancio received a 40 year prison sentence. When the Supreme Court of the United States banned the executions of people who committed crimes while they were below 18 years of age, the sentences of Perez and Villareal were commuted to life in prison.[2] O'Brien was the first of the three convicted killers to be executed, in July 2006.[1] Medellín appealed his execution, saying that he had informed City of Houston and Harris County police officers that he was a Mexican citizen, and that he had been unable to confer with Mexican consular officials. The prosecutors said that Medellín never told authorities that he was a Mexican citizen. Medellín said in a sworn statement that he learned that the Mexican consulate could assist him in 1997. He petitioned the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals in 1998 regarding this issue; the appeal failed.[citation needed] Medellín's impending execution became an international controversy, since the state did not hold a hearing about whether the inability for Medellín to meet with Mexican consular officials harmed his defense. The right of a defendant to talk with his or her consulate is specified in the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations; the United States is a party to the convention. In 2004 the International Court of Justice responded to a lawsuit filed by Mexico against the United States; the court ordered hearings to be held for inmates, including Medellín, who were denied consular rights.[citation needed] In 2005 President of the United States George W. Bush ordered hearings to be held. The State of Texas challenged Bush's order, and the Supreme Court of the United States ruled that only the Congress of the United States has the right to order hearings to be held. In July the World Court ordered a stay of Medellín's execution. Governor of Texas Rick Perry argued that Texas is not bound to World Court rulings. Death penalty opponents protested the impending execution. Randy Ertman, the father of Jennifer Ertman, favored the execution Randy Ertman wanted to have Andy Kahan, the City of Houston's crime advocate, witness the execution of Medellín. TDCJ refused to allow Kahan to witness the execution.[6] Michelle Lyons, a TCDJ official, said that Tropical Storm Edouard would likely not be a factor preventing the execution of Medellín.[7] Medellín was executed at 9:57 p.m. on August 5, 2008, after his last-minute appeals were rejected by the Supreme Court.[8] Governor Rick Perry rejected calls from Mexico and Washington, D.C. to delay the execution, citing the torture, rape and strangulation of two teenage girls in Houston 15 years ago as just cause for the death penalty.[9] Peter Cantu was executed on August 17, 2010. The lethal injection was performed at 6:09 p.m. and at 6:17 p.m. Cantu was pronounced dead. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Jennifer_Ertman_and_Elizabeth_Pe%C3%B1a#Sentencing.2C_incarceration.2C_and_executionThis case is why, even as a "liberal", I firmly support the death penalty. It was a horrifying jolt to Houston and happened not too far from where we lived at the time.
|
|
SweetVirginia
Well-Known Member
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 17:56:15 GMT -5
Posts: 1,360
|
Post by SweetVirginia on Jul 7, 2011 23:32:30 GMT -5
This case is why, even as a "liberal", I firmly support the death penalty. It was a horrifying jolt to Houston and happened not too far from where we lived at the time. I too am a progressive but this monster had to go.
|
|
fairlycrazy23
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 27, 2010 23:55:19 GMT -5
Posts: 3,306
|
Post by fairlycrazy23 on Jul 7, 2011 23:39:41 GMT -5
I do not believe in the US that someone being unable to consult with there consulate can be said to hurt there defense, it seems like that would have to mean that everybody that doesn't have a consulate, say normal citizens, hasn't had adequate representation, so no one should be convicted, except those with a consulate.
|
|
steff
Senior Associate
I'll sleep when I'm dead
Joined: Dec 30, 2010 17:34:24 GMT -5
Posts: 10,772
|
Post by steff on Jul 7, 2011 23:45:49 GMT -5
As it states fc, no hearing was held that decided it did hurt the defense. Texas refused to do what the International courts wanted and our Supreme Court ruled along those same lines Texas took. A stay was rejected by both Texas & the SC and the execution took place. With the victims families watching.
|
|
SweetVirginia
Well-Known Member
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 17:56:15 GMT -5
Posts: 1,360
|
Post by SweetVirginia on Jul 7, 2011 23:47:01 GMT -5
This killer's last words were:
"One more thing," he said as the drugs began taking effect. Then he shouted twice, "Viva Mexico!"
He did not care about the very country that provided him with free education and other services. This should prove to some of my progressive colleagues here, that these illegal immigrants, do not care about being Americans and have no loyalty to America.
|
|
steff
Senior Associate
I'll sleep when I'm dead
Joined: Dec 30, 2010 17:34:24 GMT -5
Posts: 10,772
|
Post by steff on Jul 7, 2011 23:52:10 GMT -5
sorry, but I still don't buy into that being the majority of illegal immigrants views. but I'm not going to turn this thread into yet another illegal immigrant battle ground.
The criminal has been executed, in this case, our justice system did it's job. That satisfies me and closes this chapter IMO.
|
|
SweetVirginia
Well-Known Member
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 17:56:15 GMT -5
Posts: 1,360
|
Post by SweetVirginia on Jul 8, 2011 0:08:08 GMT -5
sorry, but I still don't buy into that being the majority of illegal immigrants views. but I'm not going to turn this thread into yet another illegal immigrant battle ground. The criminal has been executed, in this case, our justice system did it's job. That satisfies me and closes this chapter IMO. Fine Steff, but I am on the front lines with illegal immigrants. I speak to them on a day to day basis, and they tell me on a consistent basis that their loyalty is to their home country and that they would rather not be here. They are only here for whatever they can take. I tend to doubt that you or others here who are pro illegals, actually live among, and speak to, illegal immigrants on a daily basis. I am the child of Legal immigrants, I speak to illegal immigrants often (almost daily), and I know first hand where they are coming from.
|
|
steff
Senior Associate
I'll sleep when I'm dead
Joined: Dec 30, 2010 17:34:24 GMT -5
Posts: 10,772
|
Post by steff on Jul 8, 2011 0:30:56 GMT -5
Would you like to point out anywhere at all where I have ever claimed to be "pro illegal"? Or are you taking the conservative "make it up & accuse me of something that has never been stated to prove your argument" route?
I'll wait while you twist me saying that I don't think the majority of illegals think as you believe as me claiming to be pro illegals & clueless as to what it's like to be around illegals.... and I'll wait while you find me specific posts where I am pro-illegal....
|
|
SweetVirginia
Well-Known Member
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 17:56:15 GMT -5
Posts: 1,360
|
Post by SweetVirginia on Jul 8, 2011 0:47:27 GMT -5
Would you like to point out anywhere at all where I have ever claimed to be "pro illegal"? Or are you taking the conservative "make it up & accuse me of something that has never been stated to prove your argument" route? I'll wait while you twist me saying that I don't think the majority of illegals don't think as you believe as me claiming to be pro illegals & clueless as to what it's like to be around illegals.... and I'll wait while you find me specific posts where I am pro-illegal.... For you to even put me in the "conservative" camp is just plain funny. You yourself said that you do not "buy" the fact that illegal aliens are not loyal to America. I am here to tell you that most illegals have no loyalty to the U.S. You said you do not buy into that, I am here to tell you you are wrong.
|
|
steff
Senior Associate
I'll sleep when I'm dead
Joined: Dec 30, 2010 17:34:24 GMT -5
Posts: 10,772
|
Post by steff on Jul 8, 2011 0:50:16 GMT -5
So in other words... you can't find any posts I have made that state clearly and specifically that I am "pro-illegal" as you stated. So there's no proof to back up your statement.
I'm done...
|
|
SweetVirginia
Well-Known Member
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 17:56:15 GMT -5
Posts: 1,360
|
Post by SweetVirginia on Jul 8, 2011 0:56:09 GMT -5
So in other words... you can't find any posts I have made that state clearly and specifically that I am "pro-illegal" as you stated. So there's no proof to back up your statement. I'm done... No, in other words, I am disputing your notion that illegals are mostly loyal to America since you disputed my claim that they are not. Now Im done...
|
|
steff
Senior Associate
I'll sleep when I'm dead
Joined: Dec 30, 2010 17:34:24 GMT -5
Posts: 10,772
|
Post by steff on Jul 8, 2011 1:00:18 GMT -5
Your words....prove it...prove that I'm pro illegal thru my posts.
|
|
SweetVirginia
Well-Known Member
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 17:56:15 GMT -5
Posts: 1,360
|
Post by SweetVirginia on Jul 8, 2011 1:04:53 GMT -5
Your words....prove it...prove that I'm pro illegal thru my posts. By your implication that illegal aliens do care about America and are loyal to her, that leads me to believe that you empathize with them. Take that however you like.
|
|
steff
Senior Associate
I'll sleep when I'm dead
Joined: Dec 30, 2010 17:34:24 GMT -5
Posts: 10,772
|
Post by steff on Jul 8, 2011 1:08:25 GMT -5
Then that says "yes" you are accusing me of something to fit what you think. A very common occurence on this board in general don't you think?
For the record, you'll find no posts that state my views on illegal immigrants...I don't think it's a simple black & white/cut & dried issue and haven't found this board to be the kind where those gray areas can be reasonably and thoughtfully discussed. So rather than feeding the sharks, I don't chum the waters to see what happens.
|
|
SweetVirginia
Well-Known Member
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 17:56:15 GMT -5
Posts: 1,360
|
Post by SweetVirginia on Jul 8, 2011 1:15:51 GMT -5
Then that says "yes" you are accusing me of something to fit what you think. A very common occurence on this board in general don't you think? For the record, you'll find no posts that state my views on illegal immigrants...I don't think it's a simple black & white/cut & dried issue and haven't found this board to be the kind where those gray areas can be reasonably and thoughtfully discussed. So rather than feeding the sharks, I don't chum the waters to see what happens. Ok, here it is one more time. I made the claim that most illegal immigrants do not care about America or being American, you said you did not agree with that. Quote: that these illegal immigrants, do not care about being Americans and have no loyalty to America. sorry, but I still don't buy into that being the majority of illegal immigrants views. but I'm not going to turn this thread into yet another illegal immigrant battle ground. I am saying that if you think that illegals do care about America and being American, then you empathize with them. I believe that you and others here do not really understand the animosity that many illegal aliens feel toward our country even though we provide them with health care, education, housing, food and money.
|
|