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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2011 13:56:14 GMT -5
Ok, my wife and I have been having this discussion all weekend and I can use some outside opinions of this.
A bit of a background: We are both Haitians and in our culture it is normal/expected for parents to put their life on hold and cater to their kids wants/needs etc. A parents duty is to work hard for their kids benefits.
I believe that while you do want to provide your kids with the best you can afford, you should not stop living. I appreciate everything my mother has done for us but I wish she spend more of her money on her, go away, go to a resort/spa.
My wife side with our culture beliefs.
Anyway this weekend some of her family members were talking about how her cousin (the one making over 200K a year) is always spending money on her husband and herself but never on her 3 kids.
A few examples they gave: she got a Hummer for her husband, always taking trips just the two of them, designer shoes/clothes, all the latest tech gadgets (her husband his big into gadgets)
while she dress her kids with hand me downs (I don't see the issue with that), don't want to send them to summer camp because she feels it too expensive, and the list goes on.
But I was playing the devil's advocate saying that: - she sends her kids to private school which is not cheap. - Maybe she feels there is no need to buy her kids (age 6,8,9) brand name clothing since they will outgrow them so quick. - Just because you are a parent doesn't mean you stop living
And yes I know it is mostly cultural for us, but wanted to see how some money oriented folks feels about it
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2011 13:59:16 GMT -5
My parents sacrificed a lot for my siblings and me. They did without much pf anything extra for themselves for a long time while we grew up.
My wife and I, not so much.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 6, 2011 14:01:26 GMT -5
I wonder if your wife will side with your cultural beliefs as much when she's in the parent seat, rather than the kid seat? I think it's about balance. My mom is one of those who would do ANYTHING for her kids, and honestly I wish she'd take care of herself more - at least put away money for retirement. She would send $100 here and there while I was in college and law school, and I know she couldn't afford it. I would rather her do less for us if it meant she'd do more for herself...
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ontrack
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Post by ontrack on Jul 6, 2011 14:03:38 GMT -5
I think you need to strike a balance. You should not slave for your kids, but you shouldn't deprive them either. Also, it is important to maintain the marriage when you have kids so I don't see a problem with having a few couples-only trips. People thinking the sun revolves around their children is what lead to a total entitlement mentality, that is hard to break when they leave home.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 6, 2011 14:06:40 GMT -5
If you have kids, is your wife going to give up the shoes and the purses? Is she going to stop decorating and not buy a newer car until the kids leave home? Is she going to stop getting her hair done? I doubt it.
She only thinks her cousin isn't tending to her kids because your wife doesn't value the things her cousin has purchased.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 6, 2011 14:13:06 GMT -5
::My wife side with our culture beliefs.::
Yeah, I'm sure your wife is going to start dressing in second hand clothes and carrying a walmart purse as soon as the kids show up.
I don't see the problem with dressing 6, 8, and 9 year olds in handme downs. They don't care about brandnames, so why should anyone else? I make plenty of money to buy my kids brand name clothes but I choose to dress them in hand me downs and stuff from Target and Walmart because they outgrow their clothes or ruin them.
About the summer camp, I wouldn't spend big bucks on a camp for kids that age either. My kids are in activities, but they're pretty cheap. $60 for hockey registration and used equipment, $10 for tee ball, $4 a week for dance lessons and second hand shoes, $25 for a month of swim lessons.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 6, 2011 14:38:26 GMT -5
I see it as your wife is going to shift all her spending to "stuff for the kid" as a justification. She can pull out "your culture" when it comes to spending on future children. Better get on the same page now before you even consider having children. I dress DD in thrift store clothes all the time. Babies outgrow clothing insanely fast and ruin them insanely fast. Why pay top dollar for children's clothes? They look great, but they are usually a PITA to put on the kid because whoever designed them does not have children (I want them to try buttoning little buttons on a squirming 6 month old! ) and the moment your baby pukes/poops/pees in that outfit there goes your money down the drain. No way I'd spend money on designer brands for my kids. For myself and DH yes because we are old enough and responsible enough to take care of our clothes. My child is not a doll to dress pretty and I don't expect her to understand she needs to be careful because she is in a designer brand.
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Taxman10
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Post by Taxman10 on Jul 6, 2011 14:46:21 GMT -5
::My wife side with our culture beliefs.:: Yeah, I'm sure your wife is going to start dressing in second hand clothes and carrying a walmart purse as soon as the kids show up. I don't see the problem with dressing 6, 8, and 9 year olds in handme downs. They don't care about brandnames, so why should anyone else? I make plenty of money to buy my kids brand name clothes but I choose to dress them in hand me downs and stuff from Target and Walmart because they outgrow their clothes or ruin them. About the summer camp, I wouldn't spend big bucks on a camp for kids that age either. My kids are in activities, but they're pretty cheap. $60 for hockey registration and used equipment, $10 for tee ball, $4 a week for dance lessons and second hand shoes, $25 for a month of swim lessons. what about 7 year-olds?? or do you get everything new when you're 7?? :-)
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 6, 2011 14:49:26 GMT -5
No, 7 year olds have to wear the 8 year olds hand me downs.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Jul 6, 2011 14:53:57 GMT -5
...:::"My wife side with our culture beliefs.":::...
This is what your wife says when she's talking about "someone else". Lets see what happens when your cousins think you should send your kid to the expensive pre-school, and your wife has to give up shoes and purses to do so.
...:::"They don't care about brandnames, so why should anyone else?":::...
I disagree, some kids are much more perceptive than we wish, and very aware of brand name vs. generic. I've seen kids make fun of a friend when they slept over at his house, and breakfast was store brand cereal instead of authentic cheerios.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 6, 2011 14:56:15 GMT -5
. ...:::"They don't care about brandnames, so why should anyone else?":::... I disagree, some kids are much more perceptive than we wish, and very aware of brand name vs. generic. I've seen kids make fun of a friend when they slept over at his house, and breakfast was store brand cereal instead of authentic cheerios. As of right now, my 3 yo and 5 yo don't "get" brandnames. I'll worry about it when it happens.
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KaraBoo
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Post by KaraBoo on Jul 6, 2011 15:05:03 GMT -5
One day the issue of buying cloths from a thrift store came up while we were driving in the car. My stepson pipped up saying he would never wear someone else's cloths and that was just gross!! He went on and on about how he would never even step foot in a store that sold used clothing. He was getting quite annoying at the time and for better or worse, I interjected....."But you have no problem accepting and wearing hand-me-down cloths, including used underwear ( ), your mother brings you from your uncle!!" SS got the point and quit bashing the thrift stores after that. FWIW - I would never have allowed him to wear the underwear if I had known about them. His mom brought the cloths to the kids and gave them to them one weekend (which also upset me - the OSD and SS got hand me downs, the YSD got brand new cloths since none of the relatives out-grew stuff she could wear). It's disturbing to find underwear in your washing machine that's large enough for your DH, but not his brand!!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2011 15:06:01 GMT -5
Yeah - kids will use anything to establish status. Number of tonka trucks, labels, etc.
DH went to a private school and was mocked because he got dropped off in a Camry.
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Taxman10
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Post by Taxman10 on Jul 6, 2011 15:14:18 GMT -5
. ...:::"They don't care about brandnames, so why should anyone else?":::... I disagree, some kids are much more perceptive than we wish, and very aware of brand name vs. generic. I've seen kids make fun of a friend when they slept over at his house, and breakfast was store brand cereal instead of authentic cheerios. As of right now, my 3 yo and 5 yo don't "get" brandnames. I'll worry about it when it happens. another great post by Swamp!! :-)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2011 15:27:08 GMT -5
Personally I would never buy clothes at a thrift store for me or my kids. I'd borrow them from someone I know, but I just don't like the idea of buying used clothes from people I don't know. Hey, that's just me.
As far as the original question, I think we balance it but I'm more concerned with my kids as opposed to myself. This new house we're buying is gonig to be great for me and my commute, but 90% of the reason is so the kids can be in a good school district. If I didn't have kids, I definitely wouldn't live there as it's too pricey.
But I'm thinking about the purchases for the new house. It has a big lawn and I would love to get a sprinkler system installed as well as a riding lawnmower. But I'll put those things on hold because I want to get the kids a nice swingset. Overall, I know that will get more use in the immediate future and I can deal with spending more time on the lawn.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 6, 2011 15:30:54 GMT -5
Having been raised by a parent who spent everything on herself while I did without, I probably have bent too far the other direction.
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oreo
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Post by oreo on Jul 6, 2011 17:03:40 GMT -5
"Personally I would never buy clothes at a thrift store for me or my kids. I'd borrow them from someone I know, but I just don't like the idea of buying used clothes from people I don't know. Hey, that's just me."
I don't know if you realize this but when you try on clothes at the store (or buy them from a non-catalog and maybe even when you get them from a catalog) other people have probably tried them on (and they haven't even been washed before you try them on). When you eat out, other people have used the cloth napkins, plates, silverware, etc before. When you go to a hotel, it is unlikely they bought new sheets and towels just for you. Just something to think about.
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sil
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Post by sil on Jul 6, 2011 17:25:36 GMT -5
I'd say that about half of my kids clothes are hand-me-downs, and half are from Target, or similar. My oldest is 5, and I haven't heard (of) other kids making fun of generic brands just yet, but I hope it happens at a young age because I think it would be easier to have this kind of "teachable moment" before they are at an age where they are certain they know more than I do We make good money, but probably half of my clothes are from Target (or similar) too. True, I'm no longer wearing hand-me-downs, but Im also not growing out of my wardrobe every 6-12 months (and let's hope that trend continues!) I probably spend more money on me, but I spend less money more often on my kids, because their stuff costs less. For us, this is a good balance. I love my kids and I want to treat them to nice things without turning them into spoiled brats. The counter-balance is that I don't want to martyr myself for my family because it's no fun to be a martyr, it's no fun to live with a martyr, and I don't want my kids to think they need to grow up and become martyrs. If you sacrifice too much for your kids, I believe you are teaching them to sacrifice themselves when they become parents. And why would anyone want that?
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 6, 2011 17:32:44 GMT -5
I think brand-pressure starts around 4th grade. Maybe in some exclusive pockets it starts before that, but I recall 4th grade, and my kids' school seems to have about that same break.
I've watched girls as young as kindergarten get very expensive clothes, but I didn't see them holding it against others at that age. My son went through a phase in 1st grade where he would only wear Nike shoes or a Nike t-shirt, or a shirt with no logo. That passed. I didn't ever hear him give his friends grief that their stuff wasn't Nike, but I can't guarantee it didn't happen. He probably said something obnoxious like "I can run faster than you because my shoes are Nike." But, if it wasn't the shoes, he still would have said "I can run faster than you because I'm a better athlete." That kid does not lack confidence!
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kgb18
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Post by kgb18 on Jul 6, 2011 19:32:16 GMT -5
I have definitely shifted my spending more to DD and less on me since having her. I feel like it's more important for her to have things than for me, and it makes me happy for her to have nice clothes and toys. That's not to say that I don't do anything for myself, or that she's totally spoiled, but we just don't have the income to spoil all of us.
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motherto2
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Post by motherto2 on Jul 6, 2011 21:28:12 GMT -5
I've totally spoiled my kids. They have had a lot of great opportunities to do things i would never have had the opportunity to do when i grew up. i looked at it as money well spent, because it kept them busy and out of trouble. Both were brought up on Walmart/Target, etc. type clothing until they were old enough to know the difference. DD would buy AE jeans at about $40/pop, but she got more than her money's worth out of them and wore them for years until they literally fell apart. Biggest issue for them was the clothes that their family on the other side bought for occasions. They totally didn't pay attention to what the kids liked to wear - I think most of the decisions were based on what was on sale. Sadly, the tags very rarely came off those clothes. I did insist on quality running shoes, because we have terrible foot problems in my family and I'm all about preventive care! My wardrobe on the other hand, comes very cheap. I refuse to spend alot of money on my clothes, haircuts, etc. but I need that extra money to pay for everything that has increased in price over the last 6 months
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kgb18
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Post by kgb18 on Jul 6, 2011 21:36:23 GMT -5
I think there's a big difference between spoiling your child and giving your child opportunities you didn't have. I think spoiled is when a child is never told "No" and always gets his/her way and doesn't appreciate what he/she has.
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Jul 6, 2011 21:55:26 GMT -5
I have friends who live the lifestyle of a couple making 175K, but treat their kids as if they make 40K. They balk at sending their DC to summer camp ("too expensive") but regularly spend $200 on dinner out. The kids have nice bedroom furniture to match the parents' nice house, but their toys come from the dollar store, etc.
Their kids are younger (6&5) but I wonder when they get older and are more aware of costs if it will harm the kids' sense of being loved. Obviously money doesn't equate to love, but there is a bit of a "second class citizen" vibe in how the kids are treated.
FTR, we don't sacrifice for our kids beyond the typical parenting sacrifices. Everyone in my family gets about the same % of their wants/needs met.
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phil5185
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Post by phil5185 on Jul 6, 2011 22:59:19 GMT -5
I believe that while you do want to provide your kids with the best you can afford, you should not stop living. I appreciate everything my mother has done for us but I wish she spend more of her money on her, go away, go to a resort/spa. Maybe it also depends on your personal definition of 'living'. Many parents feel that 'doing' for their kids IS living. Driving to hockey games, coaching hockey, swimming events, boy scouts, projects - that all becomes "living", their primary interests - and they would never enjoy going away to a resort or spa without the kids, they couldn't wait to get back home. Remember, you are looking thru the eyes of a young couple w/o kids - your perception of fun will be way different in 10 or 15 years.
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dcmetrocrab
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Post by dcmetrocrab on Jul 6, 2011 23:07:42 GMT -5
My parents came from a similar culture. We did not grow up spoiled material goods wise, but to this day I wish they had saved more for retirement versus education opportunities for me and my sibling. As for me, if I ever have kids, they're going to wear garage sale clothes and hand me downs from friends for as long as I can get away with it. They're also going to be using their imagination and play with old fashioned toys (building bricks, etc), sticks, and rocks ( ) and books until I have to deal with the peer pressure awareness. Summer camp before age 6? They're going to be off at their grandparents. Honestly, I'm hard pressed to remember anything of my own childhood until I hit first grade. For FWIW, SO and I make $190k+ combined. Townhomes in a good school district start at $460k, 1300 sq ft single family homes at $525k. We'll be spending plenty on the kids in a different angle.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2011 23:17:18 GMT -5
I have friends who live the lifestyle of a couple making 175K, but treat their kids as if they make 40K. They balk at sending their DC to summer camp ("too expensive") but regularly spend $200 on dinner out. The kids have nice bedroom furniture to match the parents' nice house, but their toys come from the dollar store, etc. Their kids are younger (6&5) but I wonder when they get older and are more aware of costs if it will harm the kids' sense of being loved. Obviously money doesn't equate to love, but there is a bit of a "second class citizen" vibe in how the kids are treated.. That is the current case for the cousin. She makes pretty good money and have no issues spending it on herself or husband (trips, eating out, expensive cars, wardrobe, etc) but when it comes to the kids, nope. My wife was not the one complaining about it, we continued that conversation afterwards. The cousin mother, little sister and my wife mom were the one commenting/talking about it. The grandmother commented how she had to go buy clothes for the kids because the ones they had were not good quality or falling apart. And the sister wanted her to register the kids for summer camp or at least some activities instead of her just dropping them off at her mother's house and all the kids do is watch TV. The sister balked at it saying it was too expensive. After we left we continued the conversation between us and my wife said yes it's true and sometimes she has wondered about that. How the mother has no issues going out wearing high end clothing, nice shoes and the kids looked liked they just threw on them the first thing they could find. Also she was not saying per say she would stop spending on herself but how your kids are also a image/reflection of you. How do you go and spend money on yourself and not think of the kids or something like that. I showed her this thread and she said she did not mean brand name and perfectly ok with target/walmart. The issue is the clothes/sneakers looking like they have seen better days or like they need to be wash. So yes like your comment: them making like 250K or more combined if you count bonus (also looking the part) and their kids looking like their parents are struggling to make the rent every month.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2011 23:27:33 GMT -5
I believe that while you do want to provide your kids with the best you can afford, you should not stop living. I appreciate everything my mother has done for us but I wish she spend more of her money on her, go away, go to a resort/spa. Maybe it also depends on your personal definition of 'living'. Many parents feel that 'doing' for their kids IS living. Driving to hockey games, coaching hockey, swimming events, boy scouts, projects - that all becomes "living", their primary interests - and they would never enjoy going away to a resort or spa without the kids, they couldn't wait to get back home. Remember, you are looking thru the eyes of a young couple w/o kids - your perception of fun will be way different in 10 or 15 years. That also might be it... and since I am not yet a parent maybe I cannot understand it. I feel while all the things mention aboved is good, as a parent you kinda deserve some time off or time to yourself : night out with friends, going away just the two of you, or just other hobbies that does not include the kids. It seems in my culture everything resolve around the kids, and I mean everything. What happens when the kids leave home? They start bothering them to give them grandkids so now they can make it all about the grandkids. In her cousin case, they feel they took it to the extreme: always out and living the kids with the grandparents, spending alone time, couple retreat and her family fears that the kids are feeling that they are not loved or wanted.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 7, 2011 8:02:32 GMT -5
Well, you could have here a couple of different scenarios. One being since the whole world revolved around them as kids, they never got "over it." Or, two, that because of being so smothered and doted on, they decided to give their kids some space. Maybe because they saw how empty their parent's lives were after they left and didn't want to burden their kids with that issue.
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phil5185
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Post by phil5185 on Jul 7, 2011 8:37:36 GMT -5
as a parent you kinda deserve some time off or time to yourself : night out with friends, going away just the two of you, or just other hobbies that does not include the kids. Yes, you deserve it. But my point was - you may not want to. From your perspective all of those things are fun & desirable - "time off or time to yourself : night out with friends, going away just the two of you". But what if your perspective reverses and those things become a drag?
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Jul 7, 2011 9:10:32 GMT -5
To echo what Phil said I hate shopping for myself. But I love shopping for the kids. I am not a martyr but I just don't get near the pleasure buying clothes etc for myself that I get out of buying it for the kids. So for myself I buy serviceable clothes that fit well and look good but mostly on sale and rarely more than I need. For the kids I rarely only buy exactly what they need and although I do try to buy on sale there are definite splurges on stuff for them, mostly electronic for him and clothes for her. Interestingly enough we used to live in a very blue collar neighborhood when my DD was young and now live in a very affluent one. So she remembers being the richest kid in school and now maybe the poorest. She doesn't mind wearing walmart clothes now but by 1st grade she would not wear expensive clothes to school. She told me that some of the kids had so little that she would immediately stand out and she really didn't want to stand out for her having expensive sneakers or coat in school.
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