reasonfreedom
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Post by reasonfreedom on Jul 6, 2011 10:09:29 GMT -5
news.yahoo.com/americas-biggest-teacher-principal-cheating-scandal-unfolds-atlanta-213734183.htmlThe children don't even have to try to cheat anymore, the teachers and principals do it for them. This article is slightly depressing. Now Obama has a program to reward these teachers for improved test scores. You think they are cheating now, we will end up having the smartest country in the universe. If I got paid as much as teachers do now I would probably cheat to get the bonus too. We all give into temptation sooner or later.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2011 10:52:08 GMT -5
It isn't Obama's policy... NCLB ties funding to scores... Cheating has been going on a long time... sometimes whole schools have been known to hold back a kids in say 4th... and then advance them to 6th, so that they don't have to test... etc. lots of ways around it... if necessary/desired.
If you want to go with merit pay based on test scores... i'm guessing that will lead to more fudging... I say we jsut throw out the tests...
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Post by ed1066 on Jul 6, 2011 10:57:36 GMT -5
Public education in this country has virtually nothing to do with educating children. It is just an ongoing battle between public unionized teachers and state-controlled administrators over money, agenda-driven political correctness and special-interest pandering. The children are merely pawns in the game, and often collateral damage as well...
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Post by Mkitty is pro kitty on Jul 6, 2011 11:37:23 GMT -5
If it were such a mess, you'd think Conservatives would you know, have something to do with it. I mean isn't education like 99.9% liberals or something? Oh that's right, fixing it requires real effort (i.e. more than whining about it on an anonymous board) and money. Never mind. Sorry to waste your time, I'm sure you have a busy bawwwing schedule to fill. If someone has a program, it's sort of assumed that people should do it honestly. But if you can find where Obama wants people to cheat, well don't be shy about it. Nobody is stopping you from getting a degree and being a teacher and getting paid all that fabulous money (supposedly). Or you can be like all the other Conservatives and shake your fists in the bleachers.
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reasonfreedom
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Post by reasonfreedom on Jul 6, 2011 11:46:24 GMT -5
It isn't Obama's policy... NCLB ties funding to scores... Cheating has been going on a long time... sometimes whole schools have been known to hold back a kids in say 4th... and then advance them to 6th, so that they don't have to test... etc. lots of ways around it... if necessary/desired. If you want to go with merit pay based on test scores... i'm guessing that will lead to more fudging... I say we jsut throw out the tests... Oh, I say down with the NCLB , but the Obama administration is still reforming NCLB and are the ones that proposed it. So in essence it is the Obama administration's policy. Either way whomever is proposing/implementing it, I would think is an idiotic idea after finding this out. This article just shows what the principles and teachers will do to improve their numbers.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Jul 6, 2011 11:52:29 GMT -5
It isn't Obama's policy... NCLB ties funding to scores... Cheating has been going on a long time... sometimes whole schools have been known to hold back a kids in say 4th... and then advance them to 6th, so that they don't have to test... etc. lots of ways around it... if necessary/desired. If you want to go with merit pay based on test scores... i'm guessing that will lead to more fudging... I say we jsut throw out the tests... Oh, I say down with the NCLB , but the Obama administration is still reforming NCLB and are the ones that proposed it. So in essence it is the Obama administration's policy. Either way whomever is proposing/implementing it, I would think is an idiotic idea after finding this out. This article just shows what the principles and teachers will do to improve their numbers. ...fwiw, this was one of my biggest complaints against the George W. Bush administration... and sure enough, instead of scrapping NCLB, we're beefing it up...
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reasonfreedom
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Post by reasonfreedom on Jul 6, 2011 15:31:06 GMT -5
Oh, I say down with the NCLB , but the Obama administration is still reforming NCLB and are the ones that proposed it. So in essence it is the Obama administration's policy. Either way whomever is proposing/implementing it, I would think is an idiotic idea after finding this out. This article just shows what the principles and teachers will do to improve their numbers. ...fwiw, this was one of my biggest complaints against the George W. Bush administration... and sure enough, instead of scrapping NCLB, we're beefing it up... I agree. One of the main reasons my brother quit teaching(which I have never seen him quit his passions) was because the teachers couldn't focus on the children with potential to add great things to our society(like possible cancer cures, government improvements ;D ). Yes, we all would like every child to be incredibly smart but the facts are some are born with more potential. I am no way supporting we do less for the other children, but I think this NCLB is a bunch of poppycock. You don't degrade the education of the higher/different potential, you end up find how to bring the most out of each child. Even a child that doesn't have great thinking/imagination could have really great crafting/architectural capabilities. I think NCLB blocks a lot of possible advancements in our society.
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handyman2
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Post by handyman2 on Jul 6, 2011 19:13:32 GMT -5
Excuse me but although I am not an Obama fan at all I do remember it was the Bush education department that brought NCLB with great fanfare. True it is counter productive to education. The real problem is that there are to many PHD's making decisions about Education especially in the elementary grades that never spent one week in a elementary classroom. My wife being a teacher has a funny story about a day one top state educator with several PHD degrees came and spent a day in school. His parting comment was ( Those damn kids drove me crazy). He had no idea about teaching but was the one who made the rules.
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SweetVirginia
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Post by SweetVirginia on Jul 6, 2011 21:56:12 GMT -5
news.yahoo.com/americas-biggest-teacher-principal-cheating-scandal-unfolds-atlanta-213734183.htmlThe children don't even have to try to cheat anymore, the teachers and principals do it for them. This article is slightly depressing. Now Obama has a program to reward these teachers for improved test scores. You think they are cheating now, we will end up having the smartest country in the universe. If I got paid as much as teachers do now I would probably cheat to get the bonus too. We all give into temptation sooner or later. From what I've read, these "bonuses" are for no more than 1500 per year, right? That comes to 150 per month. I do not see a vast majority of teachers risking their jobs and retirements for $150. As for salary, I am completely dumbfounded at the notion coming out of the right, that teachers somehow make all kinds of money! That is a crazy notion, to say the least.
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Post by privateinvestor on Jul 6, 2011 23:33:46 GMT -5
Wow, a whole new look at education
This cheating by teachers happened in Atlanta but you have to know there are other school districts that this also happened. The competition because of the No Child Left Behind was very intense to get Federal funding for the schools..
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❤ mollymouser ❤
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Post by ❤ mollymouser ❤ on Jul 6, 2011 23:38:22 GMT -5
So .... do all those cheating teachers get fired? Prosecuted for altering government documents?
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Post by privateinvestor on Jul 6, 2011 23:55:23 GMT -5
So .... do all those cheating teachers get fired? Prosecuted for altering government documents? No the teachers all pointed the finger at the lady who was in charge of the School District in Atlanta and she was fired .. the teachers just got a slap on the hand....but the parents of the students are demanding the teachers also be fired so this thing is not settled in Atlanta yet..
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handyman2
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Post by handyman2 on Jul 7, 2011 8:33:55 GMT -5
Confessions of a teacher I know. Here is how some teachers under tremendous pressure to get the performance of students on the standardized test expectations. First they teach only to what they expect to be on the test. Secondly they walk around the students during the testing period and look at thier test sheets and when they see errors they will say are you sure about that answer, have you considered any of the other answers. At that point the student will change the answer, some teachers have been known to lay their finger on the correct answer. Acceptable? NO but such pressure is put on raising the overall level of the achievement scores some do cheat. This pattern is unacceptable but some argue the tests are not relitive to the particular age group such as 4th or 5th graders having to understand the abstract thought of basic algebra etc. How to address the issue I don't know but I do believe that standardized testing should be developed by people who have years of experience in teaching lower level students and not by PHD's in an ivory tower. My wife is glad she could retire before all this nonsense came into the classroom.
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Post by privateinvestor on Jul 7, 2011 8:38:16 GMT -5
We had several cases of cheating on the state exams out here..kids were given the answers before they took the tests by teachers and other students.. When you have money entering into the equation you have to know there will be cheating..both go hand in hand IMHO especially in our public schools...
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 7, 2011 9:04:43 GMT -5
...kids were given the answers before they took the tests ... And they remembered them and marked them on the test? I know that I used to get really upset when a teacher would ask a question on a test that they had not told me what the answer was before I took the test. Seemed like a good system to me. Teach what you want them to know and then test them to see if they know it.
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Post by privateinvestor on Jul 7, 2011 10:36:37 GMT -5
That's because the California Department of Education relies on schools to come forward voluntarily, and to investigate themselves when a potential problem is flagged.
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skweet
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Post by skweet on Jul 7, 2011 11:02:11 GMT -5
When the government takes over an industry it makes value choices that the individual consumer may not make on their own. Are teachers paid too much? NO - if we paid a higher wage, a we would attract a higher quality employee, that would provide a higher quality service to it customers (education to our children). AND YES - we are paying too much per hour spent, by many mediocre employees providing a low quality service. The answer is both yes and no, but we cannot change the outcome because the government has made a decision that a higher quality service is not worth a higher level of pay. Just wait until they make the decisions on the value for health care. We will get public education quality surgeons, with no motivation to provide a higher quality service, during your surgery.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 7, 2011 12:21:42 GMT -5
news.yahoo.com/americas-biggest-teacher-principal-cheating-scandal-unfolds-atlanta-213734183.htmlThe children don't even have to try to cheat anymore, the teachers and principals do it for them. This article is slightly depressing. Now Obama has a program to reward these teachers for improved test scores. You think they are cheating now, we will end up having the smartest country in the universe. If I got paid as much as teachers do now I would probably cheat to get the bonus too. We all give into temptation sooner or later. the STAR testing program should be scrapped. it is a complete waste of resources. we should be training kids to be autonomous thinking individuals, not robots. you won't find me standing against anything that undermines the system, i am afraid. standardized testing is a worthless idea.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 7, 2011 12:23:01 GMT -5
Obama has kept a lot of Bush's policies. Of course, he kept all the bad ones.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 7, 2011 12:24:40 GMT -5
Obama has kept a lot of Bush's policies. Of course, he kept all the bad ones. not all. just most.
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handyman2
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Post by handyman2 on Jul 7, 2011 15:13:18 GMT -5
Our country is full of dedicated teachers. A lot more good ones than bad ones. The real problem is the system will not let them do thier jobs the way they no best to reach kids. our class rooms are filled with children that need special attention just to help them read. But no the teacher has to focus on meeting national test scores. They are between a rock and a hard place.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 7, 2011 15:29:58 GMT -5
Our country is full of dedicated teachers. A lot more good ones than bad ones. The real problem is the system will not let them do thier jobs the way they no best to reach kids. our class rooms are filled with children that need special attention just to help them read. But no the teacher has to focus on meeting national test scores. They are between a rock and a hard place. correct. and with diminishing resources, the tendency to go small is very very great indeed. small goals produce small minds, i say.
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reasonfreedom
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Post by reasonfreedom on Jul 7, 2011 18:13:29 GMT -5
Excuse me but although I am not an Obama fan at all I do remember it was the Bush education department that brought NCLB with great fanfare. True it is counter productive to education. The real problem is that there are to many PHD's making decisions about Education especially in the elementary grades that never spent one week in a elementary classroom. My wife being a teacher has a funny story about a day one top state educator with several PHD degrees came and spent a day in school. His parting comment was ( Those damn kids drove me crazy). He had no idea about teaching but was the one who made the rules. I never said it wasn't Bush's, I actually think Bush was a horrible president with this program he made.
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reasonfreedom
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Post by reasonfreedom on Jul 7, 2011 18:16:14 GMT -5
news.yahoo.com/americas-biggest-teacher-principal-cheating-scandal-unfolds-atlanta-213734183.htmlThe children don't even have to try to cheat anymore, the teachers and principals do it for them. This article is slightly depressing. Now Obama has a program to reward these teachers for improved test scores. You think they are cheating now, we will end up having the smartest country in the universe. If I got paid as much as teachers do now I would probably cheat to get the bonus too. We all give into temptation sooner or later. From what I've read, these "bonuses" are for no more than 1500 per year, right? That comes to 150 per month. I do not see a vast majority of teachers risking their jobs and retirements for $150. As for salary, I am completely dumbfounded at the notion coming out of the right, that teachers somehow make all kinds of money! That is a crazy notion, to say the least. Who in the heck from the right are you talking about? I hope not me, because I am in the middle. The statement I made about if I got paid as much as teacher was meant to resemble that they don't get paid squat. I know my brother got paid jack for a 4 year degree.
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reasonfreedom
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Post by reasonfreedom on Jul 7, 2011 18:19:48 GMT -5
...kids were given the answers before they took the tests ... And they remembered them and marked them on the test? I know that I used to get really upset when a teacher would ask a question on a test that they had not told me what the answer was before I took the test. Seemed like a good system to me. Teach what you want them to know and then test them to see if they know it. Memorization is good but it doesn't help with problem solving. Give me the answer and I will spew it back to you, brilliant logic there. The point is to teach the material and give you questions, not give you the questions/answers and then give you the same questions.
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reasonfreedom
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Post by reasonfreedom on Jul 7, 2011 18:21:10 GMT -5
When the government takes over an industry it makes value choices that the individual consumer may not make on their own. Are teachers paid too much? NO - if we paid a higher wage, a we would attract a higher quality employee, that would provide a higher quality service to it customers (education to our children). AND YES - we are paying too much per hour spent, by many mediocre employees providing a low quality service. The answer is both yes and no, but we cannot change the outcome because the government has made a decision that a higher quality service is not worth a higher level of pay. Just wait until they make the decisions on the value for health care. We will get public education quality surgeons, with no motivation to provide a higher quality service, during your surgery. Sorry you lost me at government and value in the same sentence.
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reasonfreedom
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Post by reasonfreedom on Jul 7, 2011 18:21:51 GMT -5
Our country is full of dedicated teachers. A lot more good ones than bad ones. The real problem is the system will not let them do thier jobs the way they no best to reach kids. our class rooms are filled with children that need special attention just to help them read. But no the teacher has to focus on meeting national test scores. They are between a rock and a hard place.
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reasonfreedom
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Post by reasonfreedom on Jul 7, 2011 18:23:28 GMT -5
Obama has kept a lot of Bush's policies. Of course, he kept all the bad ones. My thoughts are horrible policy by Bush and bad reform idea by Obama's administration. I don't play this right/left BS especially when it comes to children's education.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2011 18:29:57 GMT -5
Ok. I'm drawing a blank. Did he do any large reforms? I've been out of the public school system for awhile now... i remember when NCLB went in, but am not current as to what has happened the last year or two... ?? ..
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reasonfreedom
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Post by reasonfreedom on Jul 7, 2011 18:58:43 GMT -5
Ok. I'm drawing a blank. Did he do any large reforms? I've been out of the public school system for awhile now... i remember when NCLB went in, but am not current as to what has happened the last year or two... ?? .. I don't think Obama did much with it at all. The article shows that the administration is trying to reform it now to give bonuses to teachers for better test scores. Here is the specific text from the article. The administration points out NCLB is a problem(which I agree). The only thing that confuses me is that if teachers are cheating then wouldn't bonuses just increase the cheating? If they are cheating now with no bonus, won't they want to cheat more? text below "Meanwhile, the Obama administration is reforming NCLB to reduce pressure on teachers and principals. Education Secretary Arne Duncan said in June that NCLB “is creating a slow-motion train wreck for children, parents, and teachers.” On the other hand, an Obama administration proposal – to pay bonuses to teachers who improve test scores in their classes – may shift the stakes without lowering them."
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