mmhmm
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It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
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Irony
Jul 5, 2011 15:54:50 GMT -5
Post by mmhmm on Jul 5, 2011 15:54:50 GMT -5
The helmet may have kept him alive, but in what condition? I prefer the choice of not having to wear one. If I have an accident, I want to be dead, not a vegetable. Thing is, bluerobin, the rider who isn't wearing a helmet is just as likely to end up a vegetable as dead. Believe me, I know.
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mmhmm
Administrator
It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
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Irony
Jul 5, 2011 15:57:37 GMT -5
Post by mmhmm on Jul 5, 2011 15:57:37 GMT -5
Well, let's look at this end of it: If a person is injured while not wearing a helmet, EMS is required by law to bring that individual to the nearest ER if their life is in danger. We, in the ER, are forced by law to treat them, regardless of whether they have insurance (or a Gold American Express card). The costs for all of that fall on the taxpayer. Should we change all those laws that govern this sort of thing? If we do, do we leave the crumpled, possibly dying or incapable of movement or speech, body lying in the street or just kick it to the curb to get it out of the way?
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billisonboard
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Jul 5, 2011 15:59:35 GMT -5
Post by billisonboard on Jul 5, 2011 15:59:35 GMT -5
... Now let's see what are the opinions on kids riding bicycles without helmets? There are a "few" places that say "certain" bicycle riders should wear a helmet also. Seems to make sense to me that if the pros in the "Tour de France" and on racie tracks wear helmets, kids should too. ... Actually a pet peeve of mine is when I see an un-helmetted adult riding their bike along side a helmetted kid. To me it is the typical, "Do what I say, not what I do" mentality. Another unrelated story: One day watched an adult riding her bike in a park. The strap of her helmet, which was hanging from her handlebars, got caught in the spokes of her front tire. The quick stop tossed her butt up, over, and onto the trail. The helmet did help her handlebars from being scratched up in the fall.
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mmhmm
Administrator
It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
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Irony
Jul 5, 2011 16:04:15 GMT -5
Post by mmhmm on Jul 5, 2011 16:04:15 GMT -5
Good she didn't end up with deep gouges in those handlebars, billis. She could get some really nasty wounds from gripping the ragged edges of metal handlebars with hands that no longer have much feeling due to a spinal injury.
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billisonboard
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Irony
Jul 5, 2011 16:12:01 GMT -5
Post by billisonboard on Jul 5, 2011 16:12:01 GMT -5
Good she didn't end up with deep gouges in those handlebars, billis. She could get some really nasty wounds from gripping the ragged edges of metal handlebars with hands that no longer have much feeling due to a spinal injury.
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Irony
Jul 5, 2011 18:39:16 GMT -5
Post by ed1066 on Jul 5, 2011 18:39:16 GMT -5
I don't really have an opinion on the helmet law one way or the other, but there's no way to prove he would not have been killed if he were wearing a helmet. Riders with helmets die sometimes, too...
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thyme4change
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Jul 5, 2011 18:51:36 GMT -5
Post by thyme4change on Jul 5, 2011 18:51:36 GMT -5
I agree Ed.
If you get thrown from a bike hard enough to hit your head, it is probably fairly likely that you will go to the ER for a broken arm or whatever - even if you were in the helmet. Granted the cost differential is pretty big, but you can't say that all unhelmeted riders = big hospital bills and all helmeted riders = jump back on the bike and ride off into the sunset.
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zibazinski
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Jul 5, 2011 19:19:09 GMT -5
Post by zibazinski on Jul 5, 2011 19:19:09 GMT -5
I would think that if someone was injured and was not wearing a helmet or a seat belt then perhaps they would not be allowed to sue the other party since they chose to not take any precautions at all. As far as the insurance issue, I am all for stablizing someone but nothing more if they do not have insurance.
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floridayankee
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Jul 6, 2011 7:48:58 GMT -5
Post by floridayankee on Jul 6, 2011 7:48:58 GMT -5
Thing is, bluerobin, the rider who isn't wearing a helmet is just as likely to end up a vegetable as dead. Believe me, I know. Our riding group had a good friend die last year when his rear tire disintegrated on the interstate. Both him and his DW had helmets on. He had massive internal injuries that killed him while his wife had a couple small patches of road rash and a broken thumb. When it's your time, it's your time. Apparently it was his time, but not hers. I "like" when the future organ donors ride with the helmet strapped to the back of the bike. It'll do a lot of good there.
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floridayankee
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Jul 6, 2011 8:15:49 GMT -5
Post by floridayankee on Jul 6, 2011 8:15:49 GMT -5
Yes, but how much time is spent in each activity. I would have to spend 29 hours in traffic per week to make up 17% of my time. I doubt many people really spend that much time in a car. So, proportionally, motor vehicles are still more dangerous than other activities. If the argument for mandated helmets is going to keep going back to overwhelming costs and parentless children, then it shouldn't really matter, should it?
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billisonboard
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Jul 6, 2011 8:44:57 GMT -5
Post by billisonboard on Jul 6, 2011 8:44:57 GMT -5
Yes, but how much time is spent in each activity. I would have to spend 29 hours in traffic per week to make up 17% of my time. I doubt many people really spend that much time in a car. So, proportionally, motor vehicles are still more dangerous than other activities. If the argument for mandated helmets is going to keep going back to overwhelming costs and parentless children, then it shouldn't really matter, should it? Cost/benefit analysis. Looking at what costs society ends up paying against the benefit of individuals having the freedom of choice makes sense. (Although it is an open question where a dependent child losing a parent foolish enough to ride without a helmet falls.)
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floridayankee
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Jul 6, 2011 9:16:09 GMT -5
Post by floridayankee on Jul 6, 2011 9:16:09 GMT -5
If the argument for mandated helmets is going to keep going back to overwhelming costs and parentless children, then it shouldn't really matter, should it? Cost/benefit analysis. Looking at what costs society ends up paying against the benefit of individuals having the freedom of choice makes sense. (Although it is an open question where a dependent child losing a parent foolish enough to ride without a helmet falls.)So does a traumatic head injury from a motorcycle wreck cost more than a traumatic head injury when a pedestrian struck by a vehicle while trying to cost the road? My question is, if it's ok to mandate one wear a helmet while riding, what's to stop them from mandating other idiotic laws to protect us from ourselves? Recent news in the St. Pete Times published the following 2010 report on fatal pedestrian accidents:
• 41 pedestrians died in Hillsborough County • 25 were killed in Pinellas County • 12 died in Pasco County
Tampa Bay area owns the title of being the most dangerous place in the country for pedestrians. Should we also mandate peds wear a DOT approved helmet while riding a bicycle or walking on a public sidewalk? Where should we stop?
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billisonboard
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Jul 6, 2011 9:29:43 GMT -5
Post by billisonboard on Jul 6, 2011 9:29:43 GMT -5
... Where should we stop?Again, look at the relationship between time spent/cost incurred. That is one piece. Also we have laws working to minimize the risk to pedestrians. They are not free to walk where ever they wish (granted the laws are not always followed but they are in place). We invest in crosswalks and lights. I would be interested in a serious study being done on bicycle helmets. Realize that one cost is to enforce a mandatory helmet law. The cost to enforce one on motorcycles is much less than one would be for bicycles. Reasons for this is that police are already patrolling the routes most motorcycles use and also the fact that riders are already required to carry a license to ride which bicyclists are not. Thus issuing tickets for violations is a much easier process.
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floridayankee
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Jul 6, 2011 10:33:13 GMT -5
Post by floridayankee on Jul 6, 2011 10:33:13 GMT -5
Again, look at the relationship between time spent/cost incurred. My bike was three years old and only had 7500 miles when we bought it. More people spending more time being pedestrians would yield a better cost/benefit ratio than a guy that only puts a couple thousand miles on his bike every year. As we do for motorists. Accidents happen. Would the pedestrian in an accident somehow benefit less from a helmet than a motorcyclist in an accident? I'm not arguing that government should require all pedestrians wear a helmet. I'm just trying to illustrate the danger of demanding more government intrusion to take away our rights to be as stupid as we wish. Laws like motorcycle helmets are fine by most people because they do not effect them. Imagine the outrage if they required helmets to drive a car....or, in addition to the seat belts, how about those head braces NASCAR now uses? They prevent costly head and spinal injuries so they should be required, shouldn't they? Just when you think something is idiot-proof, along comes a bigger idiot.
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billisonboard
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Jul 6, 2011 11:20:59 GMT -5
Post by billisonboard on Jul 6, 2011 11:20:59 GMT -5
Laws protect Whom?
The law that allows the government to post "No Passing Zone" signs and punish those that pass in an area posted as such does not protect the fool doing the passing but is to there to protect me coming around the corner from the other direction.
Motorcycle helmet laws protect me as a taxpayer from the cost of medical treatment for a tramatic brain injury to a rider not wearing a helmet. The voters of my home state have decided, through vote of our duly elected state government representatives, that we want that protection. We have not, at this point, decided it is reasonable to protect ourselves likewise from the cost to pedestrians.
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billisonboard
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Jul 6, 2011 11:23:34 GMT -5
Post by billisonboard on Jul 6, 2011 11:23:34 GMT -5
BTW, FY, fun to argue out this issue. I certainly see your side of the argument. ;D
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frep
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Jul 6, 2011 11:43:02 GMT -5
Post by frep on Jul 6, 2011 11:43:02 GMT -5
I don't think there should be laws forcing motorcycle riders to wear helmets or for vehicle drivers to wear seatbelts. Although personally I always wear a seatbelt, and I would wear a helmet if I ever rode a motorcycle. As others have stated at what point do you draw a line as to "protective" legislation?
I'm not going to look back but someone else stated that it's not about keeping people safe it's about another revenue stream which I also agree with. If it really was about protecting people or saving on medical costs why is smoking still legal? Everyone knows that will both kill you and cause increased health care costs. It's legal because states receive billions of dollars in sales tax revenue from it.
I've still never understood why I can get large fines for not wearing a seat belt or having my kid in a proper booster seat driving him home from school but it's perfectly alright for him to hop on a bus with neither of those things to get to school
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floridayankee
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Jul 6, 2011 12:15:47 GMT -5
Post by floridayankee on Jul 6, 2011 12:15:47 GMT -5
Laws don't protect you if the fool is going to pass anyway.
Since you're concerned about the cost and seeing as how there are more costly traumatic head injuries from pedestrians, shouldn't this also be a priority? Isn't that like stepping over dollars to pick up pennies.
Same here Bills. I realize I'm arguing the absurd...or so it seems today. But I'm looking at the slippery slope here. I'm sure motorcycle helmet laws seemed absurd at one point in time too. That's the problem with allowing the intrusion in the first place. People become complacent rather quickly and soon what was once absurd seems quite normal.
And so it continues. Give them a little today. A little more tomorrow....and the day after....
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floridayankee
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Jul 6, 2011 12:22:44 GMT -5
Post by floridayankee on Jul 6, 2011 12:22:44 GMT -5
I've still never understood why I can get large fines for not wearing a seat belt or having my kid in a proper booster seat driving him home from school but it's perfectly alright for him to hop on a bus with neither of those things to get to school That too is changing. California, Florida, Louisiana, New Jersey, New York and Texas all require seat belts on school buses. Florida Stat. Ann. § 316. 6145 and § 1006. 25 (1) (b) requires new school buses purchased on and after January 1, 2001 to be equipped with seat belts or other federally-approved restraint system, and requires each school bus passenger to wear a properly adjusted belt when the bus is operating. It exempts (1) the state; (2) counties; (3) school districts; and (4) school bus operators and their agents, including teachers and volunteer chaperons, from liability (1) for personal injury to a school bus passenger caused solely because the passenger was not wearing a seat belt, or (2) for an injury to a passenger caused solely by another passenger's use or non-use of a seat belt in a dangerous or unsafe manner. It requires school districts to ensure that elementary schools receive first priority when they allocate school buses with seat belts, and exempts certain vehicles not used exclusively to transport public school students.
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jkapp
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Jul 6, 2011 12:33:01 GMT -5
Post by jkapp on Jul 6, 2011 12:33:01 GMT -5
Isn't that a contradictory statement? They have NO control over MY body but they have control of MY body by legislating helmet and seatbelt laws. financialtexan, I see no contradiction, the law is not over your body it is over a right to ride on a public owned street. I am against mandatory seatbelt and helmet laws, yet I see why a state would require them, we originally started only on helmet laws which I was asked does a state have the right, which the answer is Yes, the state has the right to restrict usage of it's roads to people who choose to follow the states laws. Except the state didn't pay for those roads, the people did - so the people own them. The same people the state is now telling can't use the roads they paid for because they will not follow the rules the state created.
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jkapp
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Jul 6, 2011 12:37:07 GMT -5
Post by jkapp on Jul 6, 2011 12:37:07 GMT -5
Well, let's look at this end of it: If a person is injured while not wearing a helmet, EMS is required by law to bring that individual to the nearest ER if their life is in danger. We, in the ER, are forced by law to treat them, regardless of whether they have insurance (or a Gold American Express card). The costs for all of that fall on the taxpayer. Should we change all those laws that govern this sort of thing? If we do, do we leave the crumpled, possibly dying or incapable of movement or speech, body lying in the street or just kick it to the curb to get it out of the way? If the person is in an accident, they will probably end up in the ER with or without having worn safety gear. I had a kid in my high school graduating class that had been racing his motorbike down a country road and plowed into a tree...the helmet did not save him. No matter what we do, we cannot protect stupid people from their own stupid choices...so please stop trying and wasting all of our time and resources on it.
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Deleted
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Irony
Jul 6, 2011 12:45:24 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2011 12:45:24 GMT -5
Is it better to spend our time and resources TREATING people for their stupid choices?
I'm really just wondering...
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Deleted
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Irony
Jul 6, 2011 12:46:57 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2011 12:46:57 GMT -5
The same state that is made up of the people and elected by the people? That one?
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floridayankee
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Jul 6, 2011 12:57:58 GMT -5
Post by floridayankee on Jul 6, 2011 12:57:58 GMT -5
Is it better to spend our time and resources TREATING people for their stupid choices? I'm really just wondering... It's a dangerous world outside the front door. Should we outlaw leaving the house? How far do we need to go to keep people from making stupid choices? Freedom is a double edged sword. How can you have the freedom to succeed without also having the freedom to fail?
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floridayankee
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Jul 6, 2011 13:41:28 GMT -5
Post by floridayankee on Jul 6, 2011 13:41:28 GMT -5
Hey there stranger How the heck are ya?
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floridayankee
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Jul 6, 2011 14:01:51 GMT -5
Post by floridayankee on Jul 6, 2011 14:01:51 GMT -5
Just crusin' through riding season. Must be nice. (You notice...no helmet) I'm driving through rainy season. (...and no seat belt) Now we get a nice day all day and I'm still in the truck so I can pick some garbage up from my brother after work before he moves out to the Orlando area. The good ole' "tropical moisture" will bring more liquid sunshine for Thursday and Friday again.
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floridayankee
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Jul 6, 2011 14:27:17 GMT -5
Post by floridayankee on Jul 6, 2011 14:27:17 GMT -5
True dat: No helmets or seatbelts here, either. BD party for DH a few weeks ago: A few Hondas were "allowed" in. What...no Yamahas? You must be a brandist!!
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