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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2011 19:39:54 GMT -5
I would vote for this guy JUST because of this 2 minute speech. He seems to actually understand what's going on. Something very rare in Congress. Watch the first video. danieljmitchell.wordpress.com/2011/07/03/senator-rubio-slams-class-warfare/Just watched the 2nd video on that page. Liberals for goodness sake DON'T WATCH IT. It uses commen sense & history to show why some of you policies just won't work. In other words it must be all Republican lies, so please skip it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2011 22:33:30 GMT -5
Just watched the 2nd video on that page. Liberals for goodness sake DON'T WATCH IT. It uses commen sense & history to show why some of you policies just won't work. In other words it must be all Republican lies, so please skip it.
I actually knew that I didn't have to put in the above (it was an after thought). That's because the guy speaks "facts" & I knew that liberals don't like threads with facts in them.
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Post by dancinmama on Jul 4, 2011 23:03:33 GMT -5
I would LOVE to hear the liberal rebuttal. What are Rubio and the other guy missing?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2011 9:04:03 GMT -5
No history of class warfare? ... Why do we have Unions? Why did they develop? Why did child labor laws develop? Why did our public school system develop? What were the demographics of this country during the Great Depression?
When have we had a government that doesn't spend money they don't have? ... wasn't Reagan on anyway... wasn't at ANY time since we started cutting the top tax brackets like we have... not that i'm advocating a return to 70%.... but it is disingenuous to talk tax reform when federal tax rolls are at lowest percentage of GDP in decades...
Yeah... lets cut regulation... that's been working for us... in banking in particular... and child labor law... yes, lets cut those...
Great... the tax cut for jets is insignificant... lets end it... TODAY.
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Post by Mkitty is pro kitty on Jul 5, 2011 9:14:16 GMT -5
Like people have supposedly done with Obama? You know, hopey changey whatevery. Ah, the old rule of Conservatives: to know what they're up to, just look at what they're blaming other people for. Silly me, I'd find out more about the guy other than the speech, but what do I know?
(from the speech) "America does not have a tradition of class warfare"
LOL! So magically at the end of January 2009, it must have erupted. My crockofshitmeter exploded, and it wasn't even plugged in.
I'm guessing this is the "socialist Obama," not to be confused with the "elitist Obama." Oh well, someday Conservatives will have a noncontradicting story.
Reality. If you don't think there was class warfare, what were labor unions for?
Whatever "it" is, it isn't the correct use of the apostrophe.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2011 9:14:36 GMT -5
Yeah... lets cut regulation... that's been working for us... in banking in particular... Yes cutting back on regulations in banking & mortgage loans wasn't the brightest of ideas. That's because it was done by dreamers that couldn't visualize the consequences of their actions. But hey, it was done with good intentions, like all liberal actions. I'm glad that you agree on that oped. Sounds like your starting to come around. Congrats on your seeing the problem it caused.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2011 9:18:59 GMT -5
Like people have supposedly done with Obama? You know, hopey changey whatevery. Ah, the old rule of Conservatives: to know what they're up to, just look at what they're blaming other people for. Silly me, I'd find out more about the guy other than the speech, but what do I know?Well at least we kind of agree on something.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2011 9:25:25 GMT -5
Why do we have Unions?
I think few people would disagree that unions were needed back in the day. What was that 80 years ago? Since then they haven't done much for their workers. Oh sure they got them more money, so much in fact that it cost them their jobs (which moved to other countries). Oh & they did do a lot for organized crime. I'm always kind of surprised when someone brings up unions as a "good" thing (good in the context of now rather than way back when they actually were needed).
Unions remind me a lot of chemotherapy. There's a fine line between helping & harming people. Unions crossed that line a long time ago when they changed aims from helping people to building union coffers.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2011 9:34:45 GMT -5
LOL! So magically at the end of January 2009, it must have erupted. My crockofshitmeter exploded, and it wasn't even plugged in.I'm pretty sure your crockofshitmeter control is broken & never off. I'm also pretty sure that someone stole the filter out of it. I'm guessing this is the "socialist Obama," not to be confused with the "elitist Obama." Oh well, someday Conservatives will have a noncontradicting story.President Obama is indeed a socialist. He pushes wealth redistribution (take from one section of society & give to another). That's pretty much common since. Right now he is trying to get ready to win an election. He is trying to reconnect with the misguided people that voted for him the first time. The best way to do that is to get people to believe that it's us against them (with President Obama leading the us). Who knows, maybe it will work. It's kind of hard to under estimate people because they constantly surprise you. Oh & I used the wrong spelling of since just so you could correct me. I'll make it bold so it stands out better.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2011 10:03:31 GMT -5
old tex, i was not discussing the need for unions today, although i would argue that there is one... The point however, is that Class War has ALWAYS been a part of our history... Unions are just one of the things that demonstrate an action taken to address issues of class distinction...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2011 10:25:21 GMT -5
The point however, is that Class War has ALWAYS been a part of our history...
Was it actually class WARFARE? I don't know if I would really call it that. Class negotiating or at it's lowest level I guess you could say that it was just a failure at negotiating. Most business deals have negotiating of some sort so I don't know.
Even now with one class feeling that they have the right to rape another class I don't know that it's class warfare. But I do believe that it could turn into it.
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Post by dancinmama on Jul 5, 2011 10:29:35 GMT -5
People need to WAKE UP. There are not enough wealthy people in this country to collect taxes from that would make up for the annual deficits, pay down the national debt, and have enough left over to "spread the wealth around."
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Post by Mkitty is pro kitty on Jul 5, 2011 10:39:45 GMT -5
I feel bad for Conservatives; their "comebacks" never have the sting of truth in it. Maybe it's like walking and chewing gum at the same time. Lots can do one or the other, but fewer can do both. Even you admit he was wrong in saying America does not have a tradition of class warfare. And here you were going to vote for him based on a very faulty assumption, tsk tsk. Glad we're all on the same page here. I mean, you did admit it yourself. Socialism is more than wealth distribution. And how do economies work without distribution? And the economy is up, and money is being distributed to the rich; that's a strange kind of socialism Obama's doing there. Could you tell me all about those perfect corporations? Pay close attention to their double digit wage increases and stagnant worker pay. So when are CEO jobs going to be shipped overseas? I'm not sure who's going to win your strawman shadow boxing competition. It's an imaginary person in an imaginary situation, so ... ? So by your logic, we don't need the Constitution. I think few people would disagree it was needed back in the day. What was that 234 years ago?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2011 10:42:06 GMT -5
You can have peacable negotiations... or revolution... just because we have always come up with ways to maintain our union, and avoid revolution, does not mean that there has not been conflict and engagement in the clashes of class. We've been fairly apt at avoiding outright bloodshed... but to suggest that the struggles and battles have not existed is not correct.
Dancin... no one ever said it was the only step to the solution. It is certainly a necessary one, however. Our economy easily, and effectively, handles taxes at a significantly higher % of GDP than we currently have. Taxe increases in the higher income brackets need to be a part of the solution.
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Post by dancinmama on Jul 5, 2011 10:44:36 GMT -5
The solution to this economic crisis is JOB CREATION. Whether you like it or not, the government must create a corporate friendly, entrepreneur friendly environment regarding taxation and regulation to encourage job creation.
The only way that we are going to dig this country out of the hole that the politicians (ALL OF THEM) have put us into, is to get people back to work, broaden the tax base collecting taxes from EVERYONE, and CUT, CUT, CUT spending that is not essential to the security and safety of this country.
Obama's progressive/liberal economic policies, as well intentioned as they MAY HAVE been, have been a DISMAL FAILURE. Yes, he inherited a problem...a big problem and he tried the usual liberal "spend your way out of it approach" and all it has done is to compound the problem exponentially.
Yes, we need revenue. Don't look for the rich to hand it over. They can always pick up their bat, their ball, and their bucks and find another country to live in. You'd better hope and pray that they want to stay here.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2011 10:48:22 GMT -5
JOB CREATION is based on DEMAND. If there is no way the 'common people' can afford goods and services... there is no demand for them, and thus... no jobs...
Bush's tax cuts created a net of just around ZERO private sector job..... Tax cuts DID NOT create jobs. They only created a greater divide between classes.
I hope they do find another country to live in... may i suggest one of the ones where their cheap labor lives...
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Post by dancinmama on Jul 5, 2011 11:02:03 GMT -5
Dancin... no one ever said it was the only step to the solution. It is certainly a necessary one, however. Our economy easily, and effectively, handles taxes at a significantly higher % of GDP than we currently have. Taxe increases in the higher income brackets need to be a part of the solution. I do not claim to be any expert AT ALL, but it seems to me that this is NOT THE TIME for tax increases. Everyone is scared to death right now to make a move because we have no clue what the government is going to do next. There is a ton of money sitting on the sidelines, but you are not going to encourage it to be invested in job creation by increasing taxes and regulation; and right now JOB CREATION is the only way I see for us to get out of this mess. Yes, there may be some tax loopholes that could/should be eliminated. And hopefully, eventually the entire tax code will be overhauled to eliminate tax shelters that allow anyone to get away with not paying their FAIR SHARE. Yes, I totally agree with that. If the tax system remains the same (a progressive income tax), however, increasing taxes in ALL INCOME brackets at some time in the future MIGHT be something to be considered. Like I said, I am no expert; but I do not think that NOW is the time for tax increases on ANYONE. I repeat, the truly rich are rich enough to take their money elsewhere.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2011 11:12:02 GMT -5
It has been sitting on the sidelines for over decade now... while taxes have been lowered to their lowest in decades.... and it hasn't helped. What job creation net has been gained in the last decade has been grown since obama took office. And again... businesses do not 'CREATE' jobs for the heck of it... they do it because there is a demand which requires it... a continued divide which leaves the 'common' middle and lower classes without buying power will not create jobs... it will only create greater strife... and eventually bloodshed will be inevitable... I think this is a pretty good summary of what is happening at this point... www.nytimes.com/2011/07/05/opinion/05brooks.html?_r=1
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 5, 2011 11:20:08 GMT -5
i heard Rubio's response a couple of days ago. it will surprise nobody here that i dind't find it nearly as compelling as apparently TownHall did.
Rubio uses the corporate jet tax as an example of Obama "not understanding the problem", but overlooks the possibility that Obama may have been using this as a "rhetorical example" of loopholes that can be closed, NOT as his "solution to solving the budget problem". in fact, if Rubio were a student of history rather than sound bite politics, he would know full well that Obama rarely has offered comprehensive strategies for dealing with ANYTHING, let alone a problem as massive and thorny as this one.
he doesn't even bother to substantiate his second claim that Obama "has decided to make this a political issue". and that was probably a wise move. because that is precisely what Obama has accused the GOP of doing with the debt ceiling.
additionally, the fact that he can only see TWO possibilities is a telling comment. i am sure that even political novices such as myself can come up with more than two possibilities for why Obama played it the way he did.
finally, his statement that politicians don't create jobs is totally untrue. people in government absolutely do create jobs. they do it by mobilizing capital for projects such as road repairs that no sensible business person would fund voluntarily. they do it by providing for the common defense. they do it by providing judiciary and law enforcement.
all in all, i am starting to think that it is Rubio that lives in an alternate universe, where everything is driven by business, and where the deficit problem can only be solved by scrapping the social safety net.
either that, or he is interested in shaping rhetoric more than solutions.
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 5, 2011 11:31:14 GMT -5
The solution to this economic crisis is JOB CREATION. Whether you like it or not, the government must create a corporate friendly, entrepreneur friendly environment regarding taxation and regulation to encourage job creation. The only way that we are going to dig this country out of the hole that the politicians (ALL OF THEM) have put us into, is to get people back to work, broaden the tax base collecting taxes from EVERYONE, and CUT, CUT, CUT spending that is not essential to the security and safety of this country. how will cutting spending spur job growth?
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 5, 2011 11:37:08 GMT -5
Yes, we need revenue. Don't look for the rich to hand it over. They can always pick up their bat, their ball, and their bucks and find another country to live in. You'd better hope and pray that they want to stay here. that sounds like extortion to me. i don't believe that we should be appeasing extortionists. maybe we should call their bluff. it reminds me of the quadrennial whining by radicals who threaten to leave the US if they don't get their way. sound and fury.
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Post by dancinmama on Jul 5, 2011 11:37:17 GMT -5
The solution to this economic crisis is JOB CREATION. Whether you like it or not, the government must create a corporate friendly, entrepreneur friendly environment regarding taxation and regulation to encourage job creation. The only way that we are going to dig this country out of the hole that the politicians (ALL OF THEM) have put us into, is to get people back to work, broaden the tax base collecting taxes from EVERYONE, and CUT, CUT, CUT spending that is not essential to the security and safety of this country. how will cutting spending spur job growth? It does not have anything to do with spurring job growth. It has a lot to do with solving our debt problem. EDIT: I take that back. Actually, our debt is a huge drag on the economy and available capital so there is some relationship there. Like I said, I am not an expert. Just looking at things as I see them.
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Post by dancinmama on Jul 5, 2011 11:40:24 GMT -5
Yes, we need revenue. Don't look for the rich to hand it over. They can always pick up their bat, their ball, and their bucks and find another country to live in. You'd better hope and pray that they want to stay here. that sounds like extortion to me. i don't believe that we should be appeasing extortionists. maybe we should call their bluff. It's not extortion. It is a realistic option that THEY HAVE that you and I (or most of us) do not have. Hey, I'm just putting myself in their shoes. If I was wealthy enough and there was a revolution, I'd certainly high tail it out of here.
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 5, 2011 11:42:20 GMT -5
how will cutting spending spur job growth? It does not have anything to do with spurring job growth. It has a lot to do with solving our debt problem. i understand that, and i agree. but cutting spending will not create jobs, which seemed to be your #1 concern. or was i mistaken?
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 5, 2011 11:46:00 GMT -5
that sounds like extortion to me. i don't believe that we should be appeasing extortionists. maybe we should call their bluff. It's not extortion. It is a realistic option that THEY HAVE that you and I (or most of us) do not have. Hey, I'm just putting myself in their shoes. If I was wealthy enough and there was a revolution, I'd certainly high tail it out of here. there will be no revolution. people barely even have the motivation to vote here, let alone fight for their rights. i own three businesses. i would never consider moving them. that is because they are small businesses, and i happen to love my country and employees. i am not some aloof manager who thinks of personnel as accounting items. i have no sympathy for sociopathic managers that are driven solely by profit. i understand that they are out there, and that they might leave. but think about it: they are not looking out for anyone other than them anyway, so how helpful are they, really? i would almost rather have "governmental indifference" than idiots like that actively scheming against me. good riddance, i say. i think that most American businessmen are better than "them".
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Post by dancinmama on Jul 5, 2011 12:01:22 GMT -5
JOB CREATION is based on DEMAND. If there is no way the 'common people' can afford goods and services... there is no demand for them, and thus... no jobs... Bush's tax cuts created a net of just around ZERO private sector job..... Tax cuts DID NOT create jobs. They only created a greater divide between classes. I hope they do find another country to live in... may i suggest one of the ones where their cheap labor lives... Being flip does not provide solutions. Obviously, UNTIL there are jobs there is not going to be any demand from the working people which is why the incentive to create jobs has to come from somewhere other than consumer demand. Okay, we agree on that. The only incentive that is going to put that money that has been on the sidelines to work, is an environment where the corporation or entrepreneur believe that they/he can make money. Let's get real. No one is going to invest their blood, sweat, and money to start a business JUST to create jobs!! WOULD YOU? And the more difficult you make it for them, the less likely they are going to be to do it. Job creation is a byproduct of people who believe that they can do something that will MAKE THEM MONEY. The government CAN TRY to create demand as it has for the last 2 1/2 years, but we have already seen that that is NOT WORKING and has only compounded the debt problem. Building infrastructure might have been a half way decent investment. Wouldn't it have been nice if those shovel ready projects had ACTUALLY BEEN shovel ready? And we ALL watched Obama and his cronies LAUGHING ABOUT IT. I'm pretty darn sure that unemployed labor who had HOPES (as in hope and change) of being put to work, but weren't, is not finding it AT ALL funny.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2011 12:10:19 GMT -5
Quote:I'm also pretty sure that someone stole the filter out of it. I feel bad for Conservatives; their "comebacks" never have the sting of truth in it. Maybe it's like walking and chewing gum at the same time. Lots can do one or the other, but fewer can do both. Sorry Mkitty that my "comeback" doesn't meet with your approval. If you would ask the mod to let me post what I really want to I will be more than happy to try to meet your expectations.
Quote:"America does not have a tradition of class warfare" Quote:I think few people would disagree that unions were needed back in the day. What was that 80 years ago? Even you admit he was wrong in saying America does not have a tradition of class warfare. And here you were going to vote for him based on a very faulty assumption, tsk tsk. I actually said that I wouldn't call it class warfare. I differ from you in that just because I wouldn't call something a certain title that doesn't mean that someone else calling it that is wrong.
Quote:In other words it must be all Republican lies, so please skip it. Glad we're all on the same page here. I mean, you did admit it yourself.
Yes we are. I learned a long time ago that reason doesn't apply when your talking to "some" liberals. So why bother? You can argue with a brick all you want to but you will never change it in any way.
Quote:President Obama is indeed a socialist. He pushes wealth redistribution Socialism is more than wealth distribution.
True but socialist have to get their foot in the door somehow. They have tried electing people on the socialist ticket & that doesn't work. So the next best thing is doing exactly what President Reagan predicted. Use little old ladies & babies to sell socialist health care & then expend socialist ideas once you have your foot in the door. And how do economies work without distribution? And the economy is up, and money is being distributed to the rich; that's a strange kind of socialism Obama's doing there.
The difference is taking more than a fair share. The difference is trying to make people equal by stealing from the workers to give to the non workers.
Quote:Oh & they did do a lot for organized crime. Could you tell me all about those perfect corporations? Pay close attention to their double digit wage increases and stagnant worker pay. So when are CEO jobs going to be shipped overseas? So your solution is to tax the companies out of business? That should work well. Oh & unions are a big reason WHY jobs are going overseas.
Quote:The best way to do that is to get people to believe that it's us against them I'm not sure who's going to win your strawman shadow boxing competition. It's an imaginary person in an imaginary situation, so ... ? Well I'm hoping it's not President Obama.
Quote:I think few people would disagree that unions were needed back in the day. What was that 80 years ago? So by your logic, we don't need the Constitution. I think few people would disagree it was needed back in the day. What was that 234 years ago? The Constitution of the United States didn't cover unions. If you want to compare unions to something I suggest buggy whips. We used to need them too but after a while we just didn't need them any more.
Mkitty I have to hand it to you. Your one of the top 3 liberals here . Your entertaining.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2011 12:10:36 GMT -5
The incentive to create jobs has to come from somewhere other than demand? ....
Yeah, we don't agree on that.
Personlly, I can honestly say that I have more employees today than two years ago... and it is because of the amount of federally funded jobs we have been getting...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2011 12:13:05 GMT -5
The real problem with the stimulus, is that of the 666 billion we were discussing in the other thread... 292.7 billion went to tax reduction. 126.1 billion went to provide state fiscal relief, and only 161.9 billion went to public investment outlays...
Honestly... the reason the stimulus didn't work... is because TAX BREAKS DON'T WORK....
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Post by dancinmama on Jul 5, 2011 12:24:16 GMT -5
It's not extortion. It is a realistic option that THEY HAVE that you and I (or most of us) do not have. Hey, I'm just putting myself in their shoes. If I was wealthy enough and there was a revolution, I'd certainly high tail it out of here. i own three businesses. i would never consider moving them. that is because they are small businesses, and i happen to love my country and employees. i am not some aloof manager who thinks of personnel as accounting items. i have no sympathy for sociopathic managers that are driven solely by profit. i understand that they are out there, and that they might leave. but think about it: they are not looking out for anyone other than them anyway, so how helpful are they, really? i would almost rather have "governmental indifference" than idiots like that actively scheming against me. good riddance, i say. i think that most American businessmen are better than "them". Do you really expect people to believe that you did not start your business in the hopes of making a profit that would EARN you a living? Yes, there is no doubt about the fact that there are all kinds of people in this world in all different professions - predatory managers, slum lords, etc. There will ALWAYS be people who pray on those on the lower rungs of the ladder no matter what type of economic system or government that you have. That will NEVER stop. But my hope is that there will be more people like you who are given the incentive to put their money to work. But let's face it; the MAJORITY if not ALL businesses are started because someone has an idea, a product, or a service that they hope will make THEM money. Employees are not hired until the owner knows they can afford them. The hope is that they will be loyal to each other and it will be a win/win. So if push comes to shove and your one/all of your businesses can no longer support all the people that you employ and you've tried every other means of cutting back, but you are to the point where the existence of the business and/or taking care of your own family is at stake, are you telling me that you will not/have not laid people off? I don't know what types of businesses that you have, but perhaps this very thing is weighing on you now?
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