NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 14, 2011 13:04:32 GMT -5
I believe she’s talking about private loans and not federal loans. A private student loan should be like any other consumer debt and be dischargeable in bankruptcy
I don't think most are. Off the top of my head I know Sallie Mae loans are not dischargable and neither are PLUS loans.
I don't know about the rest of the private loans out there.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jun 14, 2011 13:08:31 GMT -5
I would imagine any private student loans that are dischargeable (like DQ, I don't know any off the top of my head) would have fairly strict qualifying guidelines and therefore less likely to be available to the people we're discussing here...
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 14, 2011 13:09:29 GMT -5
Student loans are not dischargeable in bankruptcy. Although, my husband was working temporarily with a judge who believed that law was a bad law, so if anyone asked for their loan to be dismissed due to extenuating circumstances, he would discharge it.
He thought it was a bad law to begin with and had written about how this was a way to move the full burden of education onto students and take it out of state budgets. He has written follow up papers about the increase in tuition and the decrease in state funding to state universities.
I am split on the theory. I am unhappy about that judge using such an liberal view of the law. But, boy, I bet the people that walk into his courtroom feel like they hit the jackpot! Any other judge, they would be saddled with that thing.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 14, 2011 13:11:56 GMT -5
I have mixed feelings as well about discharging student loans.
Maybe a compromise can be reached, you can declare bankruptcy something like 10 or 15 years after graduation.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 14, 2011 13:12:50 GMT -5
What if you never graduate?
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michelyn8
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Post by michelyn8 on Jun 14, 2011 13:15:09 GMT -5
I missed that part. However, I will be interested in seeing what happens with student loans. Although we fritter about people coming out of universities with $100k in student loans and jobs that earn $30k - the real problem is with for-profit schools. This would include trade schools, beauty schools, University of Phoenix, etc. etc. The default rate on those loans is extraordinarily high. I think the industry is in for a world of hurt. The sooner the better. We need to suffer through the pain of figuring out a better way. As I was getting ready this morning, I heard on our local news that two students are suing the for profit healthcare school they attended. The gist I got was that they had come out of there with student loans around $20-$30k and were unable to find a job. The inability to find a job has something to do with receiving a substandard education or not being taught the right skills. And they also contend that schools like this target low income students because they will have to get student loans and the school gets some kind of benefit from the Feds for that. I need to find the story and read/watch it to get the right details. But, I thought it was about time someone did something like this - even if all they accomplish is to draw attention to the problem. To many of these for profit schools make pie in the sky promises and charge outrageous fees per credit hour for the same classes you could take at a non-profit state school for a fraction of the cost per credit hour. ETA: Here's a link to the story www2.timesdispatch.com/news/2011/jun/14/tdmain01-class-action-suit-alleges-fraud-at-henric-ar-1106494/
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jun 14, 2011 13:21:50 GMT -5
Law school is no different. There was a class action suit filed against Thomas Jefferson School of Law alleging fraud in the post-graduate employment stats. Basically, the schools are counting any graduate who is employed at Starbucks as "employed X months after graduation" without specifying whether they are actually doing any legal work. They can solicit students without ever letting them know that they have a snowball's chance in hell of earning enough to pay off their SLs in any reasonable timeframe... abovethelaw.com/2011/05/lawsuit-of-the-day-class-action-filed-against-thomas-jefferson-school-of-law/
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2011 13:31:42 GMT -5
RE: My beautician, she is in a pretty middle of the road shop. It is not high end. Personally I think beauticians do well as long as they have access to health ins. Also since most are self employed it is things like health ins, disabililty ins, and retirement savings that are big issues for them. They spend most of their day on their feet, which may be a barrier to continued employment as they get older and develop things like arthritis etc. Yeah, I think that's a very hard way to make a living unless you're in a high-end shop like Vidal Sassoon. Most of them are independent contractors who have to pay their own health insurance, pay 14% to SS (their share plus the Self-Employment Tax), and don't have pension plans or 401(k) matches. If you don't work (sickness, vacation, 3 feet of snow on the ground) you don't get paid. My beautician rents space at a "Spa", so she's got fixed expenses to pay each month before she can keep anything. But, to get back to the OT- I do think that it's awful that some of the for-profit trade schools help people get into loans they can never pay back because their chances of getting a job in the field, or even making enough to pay back the loan if they do get one, are minimal. The schools have the incentive to maximize the number of students, whether it's good for the students or not. DH's great-nephew took a 2 year class in video game design at a local school and (surprise) couldn't find a job. His Aunt had co-signed his student loans because his parents' credit rating was crappy. Last I heard, she was worried about losing her house if he defaulted.
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michelyn8
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Post by michelyn8 on Jun 14, 2011 13:44:04 GMT -5
Another issue that many students don't realize going in is that with many of these tech schools, the credits do not transfer. (to give them credit, ITT has a very small blurb about that in their commercials but I doubt very many potential students notice or understand what it means). So what happens is that a student will go someplace like ITT, take out loans so they can earn an Associate or Bachelor's degree. Then a few years down the road when they want to go to U of Kookamonga (state school) for a higher or additional degree, they have to start from the beginning because they aren't going to get credit for any of the classes they took.
I was in kind of the same boat. I went to a secretarial school after high school. At that time, they were not accredited but had a good reputation with a lot of the larger companies in their area. They became accredited after I graduated but at the same time, their reputation went down too and now they aren't around anymore. When I started taking college courses, I didn't get credit for anything I took back then, only a waiver on the basic computer class required but still had to earn those 3 credits in another elective.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2011 15:06:38 GMT -5
I would imagine any private student loans that are dischargeable (like DQ, I don't know any off the top of my head) would have fairly strict qualifying guidelines and therefore less likely to be available to the people we're discussing here... In 1978 a law was passed to make federal SLs not dischargable. Prior to 1984, only private student loans made by a "nonprofit institution of higher education" were excepted from discharge.-aka the precursor to the Perkins loan. Then The Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act of 2005 expanded this to include all "qualified education loans", regardless of whether a nonprofit institution was involved in making the loans. Rates are variable and may be as high as 20% and they will not tell you an approximation of what rate you would get until you apply and receive the money.
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pepper112765
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Post by pepper112765 on Jun 14, 2011 16:19:05 GMT -5
Oh - well then. I'm sure I'm totally mistaken and that all the averages listed for all beauticians is totally wrong. Clearly they are all multi-millionaires. Sorry - I retract. Every person that has every gone to beauty school has paid back their student loan, and actually paid double because they were so rich they didn't know what to do with all the money. Beauty school is not really that expensive is it?
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 14, 2011 16:25:05 GMT -5
If you are a high school drop-out working at McDonald's, and decide to spend $10k to go to beauty school, but they also tell you that you can get a loan to cover living expenses also, you could end up with $35k in student loans. Let's say you graduate and earn the average salary of a beautician of $25k per year. If your loan is over 10 years, your payment would be in the $400/month range, and would be 20% of your gross income.
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april47
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Post by april47 on Jun 14, 2011 18:31:17 GMT -5
I'm all for discharging student loans in bankruptcy but only if there were rules in place during the bankruptcy that student loans (both kinds) were only considered under certain circumstances. Maybe only the amount that equals a years wages based on at least 2-3 years of tax returns but a maximum of $50,000 or something. At least some kind of rules so high earners can't just write off 200,000 by declaring bankruptcy.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2011 18:54:27 GMT -5
"Oh - well then. I'm sure I'm totally mistaken and that all the averages listed for all beauticians is totally wrong. Clearly they are all multi-millionaires. Sorry - I retract. Every person that has every gone to beauty school has paid back their student loan, and actually paid double because they were so rich they didn't know what to do with all the money." Thyme4change, you are right about beauticians not making that much. According to the bureau of labor statistics: "Median hourly wages in May 2008 for hairdressers, hairstylists, and cosmetologists, including tips and commission, were $11.13. The middle 50 percent earned between $8.57 and $15.03. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $7.47, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $20.41." "Median hourly wages in May 2008 for barbers, including tips, were $11.56. The middle 50 percent earned between $8.93 and $14.69. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $7.56, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $19.51." www.bls.gov/oco/ocos332.htmDon't let them get you down, some people think "just because they know somebody" that it makes it scientific fact. Screw actual research! You are right. My guess is that if a beautician is apparantly doing well they are either married to a high earning spouse, have another job, or are independently wealthy. You were doing so good on the logical analysis until your last sentence. Don't neglect the tails of the bell curve. If a beautician appears to be doing very well for her/himself, it could be that s/he *is* doing very well. Some stylists do command very high fees because they are highly skilled and working at a high-end salon. They may be the exception to the rule, but they aren't non-existent.
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Jun 14, 2011 21:32:41 GMT -5
Susie Orman is gay? I totally missed that.
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DVM gone riding
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Post by DVM gone riding on Jun 14, 2011 22:11:42 GMT -5
There is a simple fix. NO federal SL to 'for profit schools' these schools will then either adjust their prices to what the market will bare or go out of business. many of them are not actually accredited and are highly disliked/thought little of in the world of academia. They often lack the ability to give you a real degree.
One example is the "vet school" and "med school" on st. kitts while these schools actually do a good job of training their students they are overwhelming the US with vets esp with HUGE sl debt and their students can not graduate and qualify to work in the US without being accepted at an accredited us school for their 4th year clinical training, which generally happens but is in no way guaranteed. The vet school takes three classes a year (versues the one at US schools) and basically will take anyone that managed to make it through their prereq classes, they also have a high fail/quit rate.
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blackcard
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Post by blackcard on Jun 14, 2011 22:38:04 GMT -5
Suzie is for the financially clueless, who are just starting to get a clue about money.
Student loans are a bubble scam waiting to explode. Give anyone as much money as they want for education. Pass a law so that the debt can never be dismissed. Educational institutions know that the money will keep flowing, because of the loans. This keeps education costs going up way over the inflation rate. College administrators and faculty keep getting richer.
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blackcard
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Post by blackcard on Jun 14, 2011 22:43:30 GMT -5
Or you could try to work as you go to college, paying your own way without any loan money. I did it. It was not easy, but I made it. Took about 1 year longer, but I graduated with no debt.
Maybe it is the marketing mindset? Everyone has to have a student loan to go to college? Everyone must buy a house for at least 3 times annual income? Everyone must get a car with a loan? Everyone must have _________? on credit.
Because everyone is doing it, makes it right for you also? Some people cannot think for themselves?
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 15, 2011 11:46:23 GMT -5
Have you heard that Gieco can save you 15% on your car insurance?
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azphx1972
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Post by azphx1972 on Jun 15, 2011 13:05:46 GMT -5
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april47
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Post by april47 on Jun 15, 2011 13:10:10 GMT -5
Can you afford it? is sometimes hilarious. Someone with $10,000 a month income and 8 months savings and no bills was "denied" for a $250 purse because their retirement was below par. Why the people even asked is beyond me. Otherwise, I enjoy her show. She doesn't hesitate to yell at the ones with delusions of grandeur. She has no sympathy for those who want to retire early though. She must think no one hates their job and have health problems. Jobs aren't particularly available for older people either. SHe fails to consider these things.
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Epiphany
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meowzers!
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Post by Epiphany on Jun 15, 2011 13:24:04 GMT -5
Or you could try to work as you go to college, paying your own way without any loan money. I did it. It was not easy, but I made it. Took about 1 year longer, but I graduated with no debt. How many years ago? Check out the cost of even a normal 4 year state college tuition+room+fees+books. Nearly impossible to do it now even compared to 10 years ago when I graduated college.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2011 14:48:52 GMT -5
Or you could try to work as you go to college, paying your own way without any loan money. I did it. It was not easy, but I made it. Took about 1 year longer, but I graduated with no debt. How many years ago? Check out the cost of even a normal 4 year state college tuition+room+fees+books. Nearly impossible to do it now even compared to 10 years ago when I graduated college. Try doing it without room and board even. Our state univeristy main campus is $9 or $10K a year for tuition and fees. Books are $1000 per year. And if you're working full time, chances are it's going to take you more than 4 years to graduate.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 15, 2011 14:53:43 GMT -5
I don't know if you can still work your way through school or not. Maybe if you happened to live near a state university and worked full time making a decent wage. But most people don't live near a state university and need to move anf find a job. Most college towns I know of aren't that great for employment unless you want to work at fast food or a gas station.
I plan on working my way through graduate school, but I already live and work near a university. So I have to pay living expenses wheather I go to school or not. But a masters degree is about 30 credits vs 126 credits for a bachelors.
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Post by soon2bmomof3 on Jun 15, 2011 15:07:24 GMT -5
DH got his MBA in two years, they had classes every other weekend at a hotel (food and stay at the hotel was included in tuition). It was structured for people working full time. His company paid for part of it, we paid the rest. My dad is getting his PhD right now...I don't know why, he's at retirement age and he has two Masters...just for fun I guess. He can only take one class a semester, but he's worked it out with the school, he only has to take 8 classes and do his dissertation. My dad's company will pay for 75% of it
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 15, 2011 15:29:58 GMT -5
MBA's are a totally different ball of wax compared to working through your bachelors. I had to take 16 classes to get my MBA, I had to take 45 or something to get my BSBA.
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michelyn8
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Post by michelyn8 on Jun 15, 2011 15:34:46 GMT -5
My husband works full time and is going to school part time and it SUCKS. The most he can handle is 2 classes a semester in the fall and winter. 4 classes a year. Maybe 5 if he takes a spring or summer class. It's going to take him forever to get his degree at this speed. I wish he would've went full time straight out of highschool. I'd gladly take on the $40k in students loans over this. Are there any schools in your area with programs geared towards adults? We have Averett University. They do a program of Graduate and Professional Studies at numerous locations around the state. From what I read, classes meet one night a week, lots of work outside class but the term is 5-weeks. You have to take the classes in the sequence they've set for the degree path you're pursuing. Unfortunately for me, the location I could reasonably get to between the time I leave work and beginning of class only does Master's classes right now. BUT - they also have a program for adult students who for whatever reason are unable to attend within structured class schedules where you can take classes through them, another institution or online. I'm seriously looking at that one; just waiting on the answer to a couple questions.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 15, 2011 15:36:45 GMT -5
MBA's are a totally different ball of wax compared to working through your bachelors. I had to take 16 classes to get my MBA, I had to take 45 or something to get my BSBA.
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achelois
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Post by achelois on Jun 15, 2011 16:34:30 GMT -5
Wrongside: I did this after I had gotten my AD and was working on my BSN. I took two classes in fall, two in winter, one in spring and one in summer semesters. I worked 11pm tp 7am so that I could take either day or evening classes depending on which courses I needed and which were offered. It does suck--until it is done. Then it is worth it, assuming he is in a good field. It took me a little over eight years. Not quite forever, but almost.
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Jun 15, 2011 16:58:54 GMT -5
Have you heard that Gieco can save you 15% on your car insurance? Hee Hee Hee! I'm still waiting to find out where the gecko is from.
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