Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 14, 2011 9:31:58 GMT -5
You really can't give us any details? Oh I'm sure I could. I'm not worried about anyone here stealing my idea or anything. It's just more fun this way. I know what it is...Loop posted details on FB
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 14, 2011 10:32:52 GMT -5
Actually, I'm thinking now that it is a time-tested and re-emerging business, getting the money might be easier. If you said you wanted to sell something to a niche market that would be brand new and were only guessing at potential, investors may have a much harder time getting on board. But you have a seemingly infinite number of sources that can prove the success of this exact business. The fact that it is making a come-back via Lucky Strike and other "nice" bowling alleys means you are hitting the market at a great time. 10 years ago you would have a much harder time, as the trend then seemed to be to stick 2 lanes in the basement of a Dave & Busters and treat it as the afterthought it is.
I love both pictures you put up. Our Lucky Strike has that same feel. We love going there.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jun 14, 2011 12:47:06 GMT -5
Have you thought about a franchise (like Lucky Striike Lanes)? Not interested. I mean, I love their business model, but I'd rather steal it and be able to do my own thing to a certain extent instead of paying them for it and owing royalties.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jun 14, 2011 13:17:47 GMT -5
You can't really beat the Census. I'd look at the Bureau of Labor Statistics website to get a more detailed profile of the wages and employment of the people in the general area. You might even be able to find more focused consumption information in the Consumer Expenditure Survey that gives an explanation of how much money your target demographic(s) spend on leisure/food service which could help you make your case. Thanks. I've been poking around on the Census page, but hadn't thought of the other two. So far I've got the following: Within a 5 mile radius of the center of town: PopulationPopulation 47,218 Median Age 30.7 IncomeMedian HH Income $76,371 Per Capita Income $25,567 Average HH Income $88,869 HouseholdsTotal Households 13,451 Average Household Size 3.49 HousingOwner Occupied Housing 65.2% Renter Occupied Housing 29.9% Vacant Housing Units 4.9% EmploymentEmployed 84.1% Unemployed 15.9% The unemployment here is high which is unfortunate, but the income numbers are pretty good. The two biggest bowling manufacturers and builders of centers use a rule of thumb of needing a population of 1500-2000 per lane for a profitable center. Due to the higher than average unemployment here I'd lean towards the conservative side of that and use 2000, which means this area should be able to profitably support 24 lanes. Technically 23.5, but since the nearest bowling alley is 20 miles away in the next town over (and that place is a tiny that hasn't been renovated since the 70s), I figure I can get a few of the people that live farther than 5 miles from the middle of town. The population living within a 10 mile radius is over 50k. Last year the industry averaged 7,500 lines per lane nationally, at an average cost of $2.75 per game. So each lane generates $20,625 in revenue on average. A 24 lane center would then generate $495,000 in direct lane revenue. The numbers from last year are of course affected by the recession. In the mid 90s bowling centers averaged 9,500 lines per lane nationally. I haven't seen any numbers on shoe rentals, but I figure a rough approximation is that half of all games were played by people who rented shoes, and the average person rented shoes and played two games. So 24 lanes, times 7,500 games per lane, cut in half since league bowlers usually have their own shoes, cut in half again since most people probably play two games, we get 45,000 shoe rentals annually at a cost of (uh... $2.50 I guess? Does that seem reasonable?), so $112,500 in shoe rental revenue. The stats I've seen are that family entertainment centers (centers with bar/restaurant, arcade, billiards, etc. in addition to bowling) generate 60% of their revenue from bowling and 40% from those other revenue streams. So the bowling side of the business should bring in $607,500 in revenue and if that's 60%, that means the food and beverage, arcade, events, billiards, etc. would generate $405,000. A little over 1.1 million in annual revenue for the size of center I want to open during the current recession, now I just have to figure out how much it would cost to run to see if it's profitable.
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Colleenz
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Post by Colleenz on Jun 14, 2011 14:04:46 GMT -5
I mention the franchise because sometimes they will finance you and the start up is usually faster at the cost of the down sides you noted.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jun 14, 2011 14:45:05 GMT -5
I mention the franchise because sometimes they will finance you and the start up is usually faster at the cost of the down sides you noted. That's true, but looking at Lucky Strike's home page all their bowling centers are in much larger cities. I'm not sure they'd take a chance opening one in the small town I live in. Well, small town is subjective I guess. To me 50k is a small town. We're a bedroom community on the outskirts of the San Francisco/San Jose metro area.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2011 14:50:50 GMT -5
have you hung out at the location 20 miles away and gotten a feel for how business is there, talked to customers, etc?
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jun 14, 2011 14:58:24 GMT -5
have you hung out at the location 20 miles away and gotten a feel for how business is there, talked to customers, etc? It's a really old school place. Small, ten lanes total, even though they have a bigger population. Looks like something the 70s coughed up. Dark wood paneling, dingy, they do have automatic scoring, but it's the kind I remember from when I was a kid, and has to be at least twenty years old. My wife and I played a few games there, and it borked our score at least three times per game requiring us to get an employee to fix it. It was like a dive bar with a small bowling alley attached. It's not the kind of place I'd bring my kids. There is a really nice bowling alley another 15-20 minutes north though. While we were there we got to see some of their league play. Only two teams of four for whatever league plays Sunday night. During the match they had to get an employee to go monkey with the pin setter on mulitple occasions, and then finally got moved to another lane to finish their match. They didn't look to happy about it either. They of course had to get the employee to come correct automatic scoring errors several times on both lanes.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2011 14:59:42 GMT -5
have you hung out at the location 20 miles away and gotten a feel for how business is there, talked to customers, etc? It's a really old school place. Small, ten lanes total, even though they have a bigger population. Looks like something the 70s coughed up. Dark wood paneling, dingy, they do have automatic scoring, but it's the kind I remember from when I was a kid, and has to be at least twenty years old. My wife and I played two a few games there, and it borked our score at least three times per game requiring us to get an employee to fix it. It was like a dive bar with a small bowling alley attached. It's not the kind of place I'd bring my kids. There is a really nice bowling alley another 15-20 minutes north though. Have you talked to customers? How is business? How is business at the nice one up north?
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jun 14, 2011 15:03:25 GMT -5
We haven't been to the one further north yet, but it's much more highly reviewed by its customers online. It's also a larger new center style place, food/drinks, blacklight bowling, lounge, bocce ball courts, etc. and looks very clean and organized from their pictures.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2011 15:07:14 GMT -5
I would start spending lots of time there, counting how many people are bowling, what they are eating, what nights are slow, etc ...
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 14, 2011 15:12:09 GMT -5
And you need a great name like "300 pins" or "10 times 12" or something.
(Okay - those are lame. Call me if you need a finance person - I'm awesome at that, but not so much on marketing.)
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jun 14, 2011 15:43:45 GMT -5
I would start spending lots of time there, counting how many people are bowling, what they are eating, what nights are slow, etc ... I can think of worse ways to spend the summer with the kids. We're friends with the accountant that works for the Boardwalk Bowl in Santa Cruz, so she'll probably be a good source of info. She's been working there for like 15 years now, and her husband has been a mechanic and waiter there for years as well. Call me if you need a finance person - I'm awesome at that, but not so much on marketing. Well first I figure I'll let a couple of people on here critique my business plan, you know, once I write one. I have no idea what lenders and investors want to see really, other than some charts showing they're going to make money, obviously. So if you're interested in doing that, and have some experience looking at those things from the lending side that would be awesome!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2011 15:55:04 GMT -5
Personally, if I wanted to make money, I'd much rather cater to diehard bowler. They'll join a league, show up every week, and buy beer and food. As opposed to 20/30 hipsters who will show up 1-2 times per year.
I've been to lucky strike. It's a nice atmosphere, but expensive. I'm assuming it needs to be expensive to cover the massive overhead they have.
But it's all a moot point. You'd never be able to get a loan. And I don't think there are many people outside of your family (maybe) that would lend you the money. Not to mention the incredible amount of cash you'd need to get the doors open and get some momentum.
I know there are plenty of people that start/run lucrative offline business. But I never would again. Building a strong website property gives you all the upside of a lucrative business and little downside.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 14, 2011 16:11:11 GMT -5
I won an award for a business plan I wrote. It was a long document. It included:
- A summary of the proposed business - A marketing plan - A detailed breakdown of the regional market - A competitive analysis (SWOT) - A personnel plan - Sample schedules of how business would work - A capital expense breakdown of equipment that would need to be purchased - A full set of integrated financials for 5 years including a low-medium-high revenue stream, where medium was most expected. - An exit plan
The bankers went nuts for it!
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 14, 2011 16:12:51 GMT -5
Sorry - that was misleading. I didn't write it, I participated. It was me, a research guy, and the guy who wanted to open the business. The research guy was awesome and really did well finding out all of the competitve information. My financials were detailed, and the business owner did the marketing plan and the ops plan (including personnel, etc.) We worked for about 3 months on it - several hours per week.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Jun 14, 2011 16:55:40 GMT -5
Dark, before you get too far into this venture, figure out what size population base is needed to support 24 lanes. One of the ways to approach this is to have a research meeting with the franchise guys and find out what the population cut off is for what they are selling. (I'm concerned that a community of 50K isn't big enough to support the large facility you are talking about.)
Regarding your comments on the building, I don't see the building requirements as being very unusual. There aren't any special heavy foundations for large pieces of equipment (pouring a pad for pin setters shouldn't be a big deal), there isn't any special insulation, such as would be required in a frozen food warehouse. Basically, you are talking about a warehouse with gussied up insides (I seem to recall bowling alleys from when I was young that were set up in military surplus Quonset huts). I haven't worked on a job like that for several years, but I would guess that it would cost about $100 - $125 a square foot to build a warehouse building (concrete tip up) plus the cost of the land. Then you would have to outfit the interior. The key, facility wise, would be to reduce the cost. Existing space, such as warehouse space, closed car dealers, etc. should be a lot cheaper than building new. Also do things like finding a way to share/rent parking lot space with a business that has complementary parking space needs (for example, a park & ride lot, which needs space during the day, but is pretty empty in the evening). Anything to keep the cost down.
Talking about parking made me think about building codes and requirements for parking space. Before you commit to building space, talk with your local building department about requirements. It would really suck to sign a 15 year lease guaranteed by your house, then find that the city won't issue the building permits you need to construct your business.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2011 18:05:14 GMT -5
Kids leagues, homeschool tuesdays... I have fellow homeschoolers who bowl at least weekly during certain seasons... (we have our annual valentines party there, but somehow i always come home from it and get sick?... not sure that has to do with the bowling... more likely the snotty young ones...) Here is the rock gym, just fyi... i still think bowling and rock gym would be cool... www.miltonrockgym.com/Gallery-new.html
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jun 14, 2011 18:39:12 GMT -5
Regarding your comments on the building, I don't see the building requirements as being very unusual. There aren't any special heavy foundations for large pieces of equipment (pouring a pad for pin setters shouldn't be a big deal), there isn't any special insulation, such as would be required in a frozen food warehouse. Basically, you are talking about a warehouse with gussied up insides For the most part, but the big thing is finding a building with enough totally open square footage. Columns aren't ideal, but depending on the spacing could be worked around. If they aren't spaced to allow the maximum number of lanes between you end up with a lot of dead square footage though. Other than that you just need the right ceiling height (which most large commercial spaces will have), some soundproofing needed between you and the other tenants if it's not a stand alone building, and the rest is standard stuff.
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Colleenz
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Post by Colleenz on Jun 14, 2011 19:17:23 GMT -5
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jun 14, 2011 19:22:24 GMT -5
But nobody skates anymore, except Derby chicks.
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cronewitch
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Post by cronewitch on Jun 15, 2011 13:40:18 GMT -5
Dark you will need to know things before you start up. Accounting, equipment repair, lane polishing, HR, tax, purchasing, food handling, bar tending, marketing, customer relations.
If you had a bowling alley, bar, food service would you hire you? Do you have background needed to step in when an employee walks out without notice? Would you know how to move people from tables so others could be seated to sell more food? What about insurance? Would you be covered if a child dropped a ball on their friend's toe and broke the toe? Are you willing to give free or discounted bowling or food to your friends and to your kids friends. Will you host your children's birthday party and pay all the cost because you are the owner? Will you have a pro shop to sell balls, ball drilling, shoes etc? Will you be the pro or know where to hire one?
Go to work first at another establishment to learn the ropes.
Personally I would go with fewer lanes leaving room to expand. I would add miniature golf, arcade games, card room for gambling and some outdoor things like petting zoo, go carts and rides. I would call it Family Fun Center so even people who don't bowl can spend time and money there. I would put in an awesome day care center where the tots under 8 are dropped off to have a great day by the hour. They could have face painting, ball pits, jumpy houses, arts and crafts, water spray games, squirt guns etc while the parents enjoy the bowling.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 15, 2011 13:49:47 GMT -5
Holy shit Crone - first you spend a paragraph telling him all the things he isn't qualified to do in his simple business plan, and then throw 14 other expensive to run activities, that he also probably isn't qualified to run. Petting zoo? So, you want to find a place in the middle of town that is zoned for farm animals? Go carts and rides - after you stress insurance to cover bowling injuries? Sure, a family fun center might be a great plan - but a better plan would be to open a bowling alley, have it do well, and then expand your concept to include things that aren't typically related to bowling - such as child care.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Jun 15, 2011 14:13:40 GMT -5
Dark you will need to know things before you start up. Accounting, equipment repair, lane polishing, HR, tax, purchasing, food handling, bar tending, marketing, customer relations. If you had a bowling alley, bar, food service would you hire you? Do you have background needed to step in when an employee walks out without notice? Would you know how to move people from tables so others could be seated to sell more food? What about insurance? Would you be covered if a child dropped a ball on their friend's toe and broke the toe? Are you willing to give free or discounted bowling or food to your friends and to your kids friends. Will you host your children's birthday party and pay all the cost because you are the owner? Will you have a pro shop to sell balls, ball drilling, shoes etc? Will you be the pro or know where to hire one? Go to work first at another establishment to learn the ropes. Personally I would go with fewer lanes leaving room to expand. I would add miniature golf, arcade games, card room for gambling and some outdoor things like petting zoo, go carts and rides. I would call it Family Fun Center so even people who don't bowl can spend time and money there. I would put in an awesome day care center where the tots under 8 are dropped off to have a great day by the hour. They could have face painting, ball pits, jumpy houses, arts and crafts, water spray games, squirt guns etc while the parents enjoy the bowling. Don't do the ball pit!!!!!! They're breeding grounds for germs and God only knows what you'll find in there. Ask parents about the old McDonald's ball pits...
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jun 15, 2011 14:15:23 GMT -5
Dark you will need to know things before you start up. Accounting, equipment repair, lane polishing, HR, tax, purchasing, food handling, bar tending, marketing, customer relations. If you buy the equipment from one of the two big industry players (AMF and Brunswick) they include training on repair and polishing. I'm handy enough to figure out the mechanical aspect of the machines with some training, and I've got the right background that I'm not too worried about the computerized components and point of sale system. I've worked pretty much every job in a restaurant, dishwasher, prep cook, buffet cook, line cook, waiter, host/cashier, and assistant manager. I was a cook and waiter at a diner inside a bowling center actually. Never tended bar, but we're thinking beer and wine only instead of a full bar which makes that pretty simple. If you had a bowling alley, bar, food service would you hire you? Hell no. I'd tell me I'm overqualified. Unless I lied to me on my resume and in the interview... then maybe I'd hire me. Hell, the fact that I have a resume instead of just filling out an application means I'm probably overqualified to work there and will split the second something better comes along. What about insurance? Would you be covered if a child dropped a ball on their friend's toe and broke the toe? I've been looking through back issues of BCM (Bowling Center Management) Magazine, and there are several boutique insurance companies that specialize in bowling centers. I'm way too early in the process to start getting insurance quotes, but yes it's something that would be in place. Are you willing to give free or discounted bowling or food to your friends and to your kids friends. Will you host your children's birthday party and pay all the cost because you are the owner? No. Bowling is basically a cash business with little inventory. It's the type of business where employee theft can get really prevalent if you aren't careful. Using services that you don't pay for, or giving my family and friends discounts, could set a precedent for my employees. I'm thinking a don't shit where you eat approach is probably a better bet. Will you have a pro shop to sell balls, ball drilling, shoes etc? Will you be the pro or know where to hire one? The pro shop is the one piece that I think needs to be there and I feel the least confident about. I've never drilled a bowling ball, helped fit somebody for one, etc. That's definitely going to be a big area I'd need to learn or hire out. Go to work first at another establishment to learn the ropes. I don't know... that's a mighty big pay cut. Fundamentally, bowling is putting in a bunch of money up front to put in lanes, pin setting equipment, and an automatic scoring system. After that it's standing behind the counter renting shoes and charging per game. The business isn't rocket science. An arcade is the same way; big up front investment in games, but after that it's a power bill and emptying quarters. The restaurant/bar is the most obnoxious ongoing piece of the business. I'm familiar enough with that to make a go of it, but I'd probably hire a menu consultant to come in and design a menu that's appealing to the consumer, but overhead friendly, and fairly simple to prepare. A step up from a typical bar menu, but less hassle than a full restaurant. We're also looking at a few other revenue generating components (Bocce ball courts, outdoor beach volleyball, prize redemption style arcade (a la Chuck E Cheese), billiards, etc.) that for the most part don't seem all that complicated to operate.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 15, 2011 14:16:20 GMT -5
Also - maybe it is because we are in the "city" but those all-in-one entertainment places are kind of outdated now. Now it seems the cool stuff is specific. We have the inflatables place. We have the trampoline place. We have the bowling alley. We have the laser tag center. And then we have the rides/mini-golf place that has been around forever. But they aren't connected. It seems you pick one, and go with it.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jun 15, 2011 14:26:00 GMT -5
The industry trends, as far as I can tell, are that the family entertainment centers with at least three revenue generating components are more profitable than boutique places catering to young professionals which are more profitable than old fashioned bowling alleys. We're thinking a stripped down family entertainment center type concept. Bowling, bar/restaurant, pro shop, arcade/billiards, and depending on the building maybe something outside like batting cages or beach volleyball courts. Nothing too big, but still offering more than just bowling.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2011 14:31:33 GMT -5
How about starting small with just batting cages or something and working your way up to bowling allies?
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jun 15, 2011 14:36:46 GMT -5
How about starting small with just batting cages or something and working your way up to bowling allies? It's a possibility. I'd have to really think about what to start with though. I'm not sure batting cages by themselves in a town this size would produce enough profit to make it worth the time, hassle, and money you'd need to invest. Then again, the wife is just sitting at home folding socks or whatever.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2011 14:44:36 GMT -5
How about starting small with just batting cages or something and working your way up to bowling allies? It's a possibility. I'd have to really think about what to start with though. I'm not sure batting cages by themselves in a town this size would produce enough profit to make it worth the time, hassle, and money you'd need to invest. Then again, the wife is just sitting at home folding socks or whatever. Yeah, not turning a profit would be bad, but being able to show a profit would be a big plus to future investors.
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