Why college might be a good idea

[Firebird]

I know way more people that didn't figure it out until they were past the point of really leaping ahead. I out earn all of them - because they weren't in the club, and couldn't convince anyone to let them in. Granted, I'm in finance/accounting where there is a substantial culture of education. I don't know many people who are able to succeed in corporate accounting without a degree. There aren't as many paths you can take.

True, but there are some paths you can take - qofcc and I are living proof, since we both had accounting careers without degrees (I think - qofcc, correct me if I'm wrong).

I know, we're exceptions - but that's what I'm talking about here, the exceptions.

It definitely puts you in a vulnerable position if you need to change employers. I'm not denying that. I feel much more secure now that I have my degree (but at the same time, I'm glad I learned not to depend on it).

[qofcc]

I don't know many people who are able to succeed in corporate accounting without a degree. There aren't as many paths you can take.

You're right. Having my position transferred into the finance department from the marketing department has been eye opening. I'm still doing more or less the same job but most of my new co-workers have MBAs. Being the person in marketing who had the accounting and technical skills that stood out felt a lot more secure.

I topped out in "accounting" at office manager level, then switched to management analyst, but my niche was always as a member of/consultant to the marketing department.

[Deleted]

My ex's mother worked her way from being a receptionist to vice president of a large insurance company. She had a great mentor. I don't think that's very common anymore.

[Firebird]

Not in finance. The "bosses" are too rigid. Maybe other areas have more open minds.

It helps if you remind someone in the company of themselves at your age. I was surprised when the person who hired me at my first job mentioned that she spent some time trying to prove herself at a young age too. I just assumed she was always Big and Important, haha.

Also, a culture that's known for thinking outside the box and creative thinking is very helpful. They're less likely to be tied to old ways of thinking.

[thyme4change]

but my niche was always as a member of/consultant to the marketing department.

This is basically what my group does, and my boss tossed out the resume of a gal who had one semester left to get her bachelors and was attending school. Period - nope - nada. The gal had 6 or 7 years experience, but no paper. He wouldn't even consider her.

The boss I had before this one wouldn't even look at people with bachelors from "some" schools. (University of Phoenix and the others in that genre.) Even my MBA was suspect because it was from a for-profit school.

Absolutely no flexibility from either of them.

[qofcc]

And I'm sure my resume ended up in the trash many times. I have no doubt my career would have been easier with a degree. I'm not sure I would be at a higher level - I make 2x the average salary for the geographic area where I live and within the median for my job title. But I believe job hunting would have been easier and I would feel more confident about what would happen if I was downsized.

One of these days I may finish up a BS so I can have that security blanket, but right now I have so much crap in my life that I have to get through that taking on another burden of something that I'm going to hate doing is just more than I can deal with.

[Sum Dum Gai]

Why college might be a good idea

Because the alternative route to a decent job is getting lucky and working your ass off! And you pretty much have to have both, not just one or the other. You can work your ass off and get nowhere, and you can also blow your only shot by not working hard enough. I see a lot more people with a college degree that sort of coast right out of the gate. They graduate, get an OK position, and make a career out of doing an OK job. They never have to be great. They never have to work to prove that they deserve it. They just show up and not screw up. I figure it probably gives them a ton of time to devote to their lives outside of work, and it's probably less stressful. Or, I could be viewing the whole thing as the greener grass on the other side of the fence. No way to know for sure I guess.

[CPWnyc]

we all know some individuals who are gifted/talented and successful in life w/o college education. yes, they exit in a lot of fields ...realestate, internet business, IT, fashion/entertainment, etc. But in medical field, college degree is a must. Not only degrees are required but we also have to be board certified and have additional training/residency/internship in a specialized field. There is no other way around it.
One good thing about being in a medical field is that you can always find a job. Your skill/knowledge is needed everywhere bec there will always be sick patients.

[Deleted]

Can we agree that a degree opens doors of possibility

Without a degree you wont even get a glance, but with one, you may get your foot in the door

What happens after that is up to each individual...and the work they produce

There are many successful people with no degrees....who back in the day, used intelligence, drive, and determination to move up the ranks (who had no or little formal education)

Now...without the piece of paper, a lot of jobs WILL NOT even consider you

A degree doesnt guarantee success....but IMHO it sure in the hell helps

[maraqxa]

In my company, in the finance/acctg field you will not get a job without a degree and if at one point in time you got in then you are not going to get promoted in acctg specifically.
Just had that situation happen, I wanted to offer a job to an intern applicant and I couldn't because this person does not have an acctg degree, the person is already in an acctg role for the last 7 years but have not gone back to finish degree.

If I want to interview them I would need to repost the position as just experience needed and I could probably go thru the hoops for this person to get the role but then again I just think that this person knew they needed to finish degree in order to advance then why not finish it??

Also, our new acctg/finance hires need to have a degree and had taken certain acctg classes. I just don't think I need to change a role to fit a person. This is a $70K+ role.

[thyme4change]

They graduate, get an OK position, and make a career out of doing an OK job. They never have to be great. They never have to work to prove that they deserve it. They just show up and not screw up. I figure it probably gives them a ton of time to devote to their lives outside of work, and it's probably less stressful.

Woo Hoo! It is like you are writing a biography of my life.

[cronewitch]

I would love to see a study of equal students in high school who got college degrees or not done. They can't because you can't just take half the students and tell them they are to go and the other half they can't go. Going to college is self selecting to weed out those who aren't college material. Try taking a thousand walmart clerks and shelf stockers and send them to college for degrees ans have another thousand who are a control group. Don't let them choose which group they are in so you don't get all those who are smarter or more ambitious in one group. Follow them for 20 years and see how much more the grads are making.

Some of us get degrees but still don't make the big bucks, I have a degree and make 58,800, I was making 30K- 25 years ago without a degree. It has been some help landing jobs but not very much more money than without a degree.

I am pushing two woman at work to get promotions, one should get a degree they other doesn't need one as far as I can see. They might make an extra 10-20K with a degree or almost as much just working smart at the jobs they have. We are paying the newest one 15.50 and I think she can get to 40K pretty quick without a degree. My boss and I were talking today about the number of employees we need to have working to cover overhead and it has improved the last 10 years from 100 to 75. I said maybe we are more careful with the money and he said we were working smarter. He said I was working smarter and making the new women work smarter so he sees her improving after 3 weeks on the job. I told her to start impressing him and earning raises and promotions and I am telling him when she does things to impress me. I got the other newer employee a raise a couple of weeks ago, she and I got the only raises. I tell them I am not their boss but I am bossy, they do what I want all the time. I told them I was easy to get along with as long as they do what I want. The boss likes not having to supervise them because we get the jobs done and improve things without him. The payroll clerk is smart, younger and hard working, the HR manager is 65 and will retire in about 2 years when his wife is 65. The purchasing clerk is over 50 but the purchasing manager is about 65 having health and vision problems, I am helping her master and simplify her job so she can assist him in her spare time and replace him when he retires. I don't see how a degree would pay for itself. He makes twice what she makes and he seems to like her and be willing to accept her help and show her things. She will update his price books and print them out in a larger font for him, he will love it, he uses a magnifying glass to see it now.

[qofcc]

I would love to see a study of equal students in high school who got college degrees or not done. They can't because you can't just take half the students and tell them they are to go and the other half they can't go. Going to college is self selecting to weed out those who aren't college material.

I'm not sure I agree with that. If any HS graduate could go to college for free and receive a living stipend like they can in Denmark, for instance, then, I would tend to agree with you, but I think there are still a lot of people (certainly not the majority, but a significant number) who don't go to college not because they're not academically capable, but because life happens early and they need to work or they are afraid of taking on student loans the size of a mortgage. The year I was there, I was considered college material (but not good enough for a full ride scholarship) by anyone's standards. I scored a 1290 on the SATs and maintained a 3.0 GPA in college even though I only showed up to class a couple of times/week because I was exhausted from working trying to support myself. I watched people around me partying on their parent's money or sports scholarships and acting like spoiled drunk children end up on academic probation or flunk out after the first semester.

I think the entire paying for college model in this country needs to be revamped because financial aid it plentiful for the very smart and the very poor and the ones who are gifted at sports, but the middle of the road middle class students are the ones who have to be very careful about picking the right education for the money.

I know at my 10 HS year reunion, I was pretty high on the earnings curve. At the 20 year, I was closer to the middle.

[maraqxa]

I think the entire paying for college model in this country needs to be revamped because financial aid it plentiful for the very smart and the very poor and the ones who are gifted at sports, but the middle of the road middle class students are the ones who have to be very careful about picking the right education for the money.
Why can't people go to community college and then finish up at a 4 year university? I did. I paid for community college on my own and then took loans for university, I went to an expensive one 9 years ago, it was $16K/yr but I didn't have many other alternatives. I paid for interest on loans while in school. I came out with $34K in loans, I now owe $18K @ 1.875%.

I worked about 4 jobs when in schoool, I'm not sure how I did it but I worked, studied and also party a lot I got a job out of school 7 years ago at $35K and I'm now at $106K with room to grow. Not sure I would be here without a degree, not in acctg anyway. The degree got my foot in the door. To me the $146 that I pay a month for those loans are totally worth it.

[qofcc]

Why can't people go to community college and then finish up at a 4 year university? I did.

Even if you go to community college which is a few thousand less than a 4 year state university, you still need to have a roof over your head and food and transportation. Of course it can be done, it's just still a struggle for a lot of people. I'm watching my kids struggle with this.

DD is 21 and has an AS in Liberal Arts. She's reasonably smart. 1200+ on the SATs in 10th grade and started taking college credit courses in 9th grade. She had a health problem and ended up in the hospital having surgery in 10th grade and missed months of school and didn't pass the year. On the advice of her tutor (a local teacher) she dropped out of HS at 16 and enrolled in community college part-time (we paid full price tuition, no financial aid without a diploma). Took the GED after the 12 month waiting period and scored the equivalent of an 85. Then she got pregnant. She worked part-time and continued to go to school part-time. After the baby was born, she moved out and started taking out student loans to pay her rent & utilities and transportation expenses. She couldn't get financial aid for tuition for herself and daycare financial aid for the baby as long as she lived with us, but she wasn't earning enough to live on her own without aid. Catch 22. She earned average grades and was trying to get into the nursing program. Every semester the advisors would tell her she met the minimum requirements and have her apply again and she would drop by the director's office to plead her case and send follow up e-mails about how much she wanted to be in the program and every semester she didn't get in. 500 applicants for 75 openings at each of the 3 community colleges every semester was very competitive. One time she was one of 10 people who made the waiting list, but she didn't get in. So after 3 years of applying, she was up to 70 credits of prerequisites and other related courses and she took the liberal arts diploma. She has close to $20k in student loans from housing, transportation and daycare expense and she still hasn't found a decent job with a 2 year degree and 2 years experience as a marketing assistant with good references. She's applying for a program through a state college where she can finish a BS with independent study once class at a time while she works and she's trying to decide which major will get her the best paying job that she won't mind doing in the shortest amount of time. Her tuition and books should be fully covered by grant money, but she still needs to work to pay to live. She's trying to find an office job at a doctor's office and she's applied for over 100 of those jobs through the local hospital system (she meets all of the requirements) and has had a few interviews but has not found a job yet. One of her doctors had an opening but they told her there were already 10 internal candidates and they'd interview her if none of those worked out, but there were over 100 other external applicants.

I'm watching my stepson struggle. He was not college material, but he was convinced that if he tried hard enough he could do it. His uncle spent 7 years trying and failing until he completed a 2 year degree and their family thinks this is a good thing. He had full tuition grant money for the first year of community college because he was living with his mom during HS and she was low income. He failed most of his classes the first semester and then started over with the remedial versions the 2nd semester. Then he joined the Army reserves because they told him that he would be able to go to a 4 year college and have room & board paid for. So he signed up for community college again while doing reserves thinking he'd be reimbursed, but he failed more classes and the ones he passed, they didn't pay for because he failed to run fast enough on some physical fitness test. He's 24 now and I think he has less than 12 credits of non-remedial college work that he ended up paying thousands of dollars for out of his own money. He finally gave up on college and he just got a job with a local company doing IT work where they value his military training. He really is good at tech support. He was working as a computer tutor at college, he just couldn't pass the non-computer courses himself. If he proves to be good at the job he should be able to make a career of it. He's never going to get to the top, but he's making a good living wage right now.

Then I look at my step daughter. She struggled all through high school and was diagnosed with learning disorders and she had co-taught classes. She received free tuition to community college based on her mom's income and she's living on the child support we're required to pay. To our surprise, she's maintaining a solid C average taking the easiest liberal arts courses and should be receiving her 2 year degree in 3 years. She has no idea what she wants to do for a career and isn't particularly worried about it. Her boyfriend is doing well in business school, so hopefully she can continue to avoid getting pregnant until he graduates and is able to support them.

[Deleted]

It's becoming a lot more difficult to to do the community college transfer route depending on where you live. A lot of state colleges in CA this year are not admitting "guaranteed" transfers for the first time. Budget cuts + record enrollment = hard times.

[maraqxa]

Even if you go to community college which is a few thousand less than a 4 year state university, you still need to have a roof over your head and food and transportation. Of course it can be done, it's just still a struggle for a lot of people. I'm watching my kids struggle with this.
Believe me, I know. I was on my own and had those same bills. I moved to the US and lived with my dad for about a year, after that it was all me, no one to ask for money. I struggled but I made it and I turned just fine, maybe because I still see that here in the US you can be anything you want.

[maraqxa]

May 25, 2011 9:22:50 GMT -5 @anne81 said:

It's becoming a lot more difficult to to do the community college transfer route depending on where you live. A lot of state colleges in CA this year are not admitting "guaranteed" transfers for the first time. Budget cuts + record enrollment = hard times.

Before I entered the community college I made sure that I could transfer credits and how many so I didn't take any credits for nothing.

The funny thing about this experience is a that a lot people told me it couldn't be done, the whole college thing without money. My dad and stepmom thought I was a dreamer and with no idea how things in the US worked, none of them had college degrees and together made around $40K a year. I would tell them I wanted to live on my own and go to college and they just thought I was crazy.
I had made the decision of leaving my own country where I was going to college and leaving a good life, if I was moving to the US it was going to be to have a better standard of life than I could've had there.