Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 23, 2011 12:00:41 GMT -5
Someone too stupid to keep track of their $45,000 in cash is hardly automatically entitled to it, and if I found out the law in my state was that they legally conveyed the property- then I wouldn't hesitate to keep it.
Precisely.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on May 23, 2011 12:51:10 GMT -5
I am an investor, so I buy property all the time with the specific objective of buying it well below market price. Sometimes this is with a distressed seller's full knowledge, sometimes it is because I have spotted a market opportunity as a result of years of market research and the specialized market knowledge I have developed. Now, I say that to ask this: What's the difference if a seller that can't keep track of $45,000 in cash, and a seller that got in over their heads, or a seller that doesn't really know what their property is worth, or in one way or another does not possess the knowledge, skill, or financial ability to exploit the opportunity that the property represents to me? Theorhetically, if it's a good idea for me to buy, it's not such a good idea for them to sell. Either way, the seller is leaving me money. You are not of the win win school? I thought you were. Buying houses helps you and helps the seller. Of course I'm of the win win school-- it's the basis of free market economics. You want my widget more than you want to keep your dollar. I want your dollar more than I want my widget-- we strike a deal: one widget for one dollar. But I'm not going to deny being in a better position financially gives me a better negotiating position, nor am I going to deny not putting all my cards on the table with respect to market knowledge. My position is this- you're in quicksand, and I'm willing to throw you a rope, but I'm not getting in with you. I don't run a charity. I'm an investor. I'll help you if there's a return on my investment. Sellers benefit because the market offers people like me an incentive to help people like them.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 23, 2011 14:23:16 GMT -5
My question is: How the hell do you forget that you had $45,000 in the floorboards?! He returned the money to the son of the previous owners, so more than likely the couple who stashed the money originally is dead. It's also possible they're mentally incompetent or something so the son handles their finances now. I could be wrong, but my take is the money you guys are talking about keeping is the life savings of some old couple.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 23, 2011 14:26:23 GMT -5
I don't get how you figure that, if the original stasher/saver is now dead.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 23, 2011 14:30:20 GMT -5
Even if the original couple is dead, the money they stashed away is probably their life savings. You're still talking about keeping the life savings of some old couple.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on May 23, 2011 14:33:07 GMT -5
Even if the original couple is dead, the money they stashed away is probably their life savings. You're still talking about keeping the life savings of some old couple.
Well, I think I would return it unless it was under $1,000 (or at least try to track down the original owners). So no, I wouldn't keep anyone's life savings.
But honestly, if it was that important to them then don't you think they would have taken it with them when they left? Either it was their life savings and therefore really important or it wasn't their life savings and wasn't all that important, hence them forgetting about it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2011 14:34:42 GMT -5
I tend to look at those kinds of situations as tests. I've only found money once, a little over $100 in a wallet in a parking lot. I tracked the owner down by calling her job (her paycheck was in the wallet also) explaining why I was calling, and leaving my phone number. I met her at a gas station and gave her the wallet, contents intact. She was so grateful.......... it was right before Christmas, she had just left her husband with 2 small kids, and she hadn't even realized the wallet was missing until her job called her with my message. I got more joy from her reaction than anything I could've spent her money on.
Anyway, $45k, I know I'd be mighty tempted to keep it but I think I'd try to return it to it's rightful owner. I'd be too afraid that it'll cost me some other way if I fail the test. I know........ the *test* thing is probably weird.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on May 23, 2011 14:59:09 GMT -5
Maybe the owner found $100,000 and knew the son didn't know anything about it - so he returned $45k to look like a hero, but really it was a 55/45 split.
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oreo
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Post by oreo on May 23, 2011 18:45:05 GMT -5
The people I bought my house from left 2 pizza pans in the oven caked with like 100 coats of Pam spray. I kept them and still use them occasionally today! I'm such an unethical person...
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oreo
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Post by oreo on May 23, 2011 18:46:22 GMT -5
Although I was shopping at a store and found a jacket that someone had left (must have been trying something on). It had a lot of cash in the pocket and I turned it in so maybe I'm not so bad after all...
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formerexpat
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Post by formerexpat on May 23, 2011 20:01:42 GMT -5
Did you even read the article? Sounds like the child of a depression era person that was selling their deceased parents house. Evidently, the secret of where this money was hidden was not passed along.
Pretty easy to figure out if the money is the previous owners. The history of the deed, the date of the bills.
Whatever makes you feel better about yourself. I'd be willing to put money down that your imaginary friend would disagree.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on May 23, 2011 22:00:02 GMT -5
Sorry, my point still stands. It doesn't matter that we're talking about the heir or heirs. If the original owners were so irresponsible or absent minded that they lost track of $45,000 in cash; never mentioned it; and didn't leave it in their will, then I maintain that if it was legally transferred in the sale, there's nothing immoral or unethical about keeping it.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on May 23, 2011 22:09:36 GMT -5
Maybe the owner found $100,000 and knew the son didn't know anything about it - so he returned $45k to look like a hero, but really it was a 55/45 split. I thought about that. It's riskier than not saying anything at all. Spoke to my attorney about this-- maybe swamp would know something about this-- but he said it is very risky to 'return' anything of value that you find in a property because it opens you up to claims that other property may not be yours. Said it's a bad idea to acknowledge anything. Said if you're really compelled to do it, give an anonymous gift. Also, it occurs to me that the bills, if they're quite old, may even be collectible and have a value much greater than the face value.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on May 23, 2011 22:14:29 GMT -5
Sorry, my point still stands. It doesn't matter that we're talking about the heir or heirs. If the original owners were so irresponsible or absent minded that they lost track of $45,000 in cash; never mentioned it; and didn't leave it in their will, then I maintain that if it was legally transferred in the sale, there's nothing immoral or unethical about keeping it. IF that were the case, then I agree. Seems to be a lot of people in this thread deciding for themselves what the law "is" based on things they heard or their own uneducated (not meant to be insulting, merely a distinction between those who have studied the law, and those who took a class/read an article/heard a story) opinions on the law. It's one thing to go through the proper channels in determining that you are entitled to keep the money. It's another to say "finders keepers" or "my legal knowledge says I can keep it". I don't see anything immoral about keeping the money...once you've ensured that you've done what is legally necessary to do so.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on May 23, 2011 22:18:22 GMT -5
"Maybe the owner found $100,000 and knew the son didn't know anything about it - so he returned $45k to look like a hero, but really it was a 55/45 split."
Is it worth $45K to have a blurb on the news about you? Particularly given that if you want so badly to "look like a hero" it seems you'd be far better off to take $45K and donate it to a local charity/school and have your name on something? I understand the logic, but then why $45K, why not $5K or 10K...suddenly I can't stop thinking about what the correct $$$ amount is whereby giving anything more back doesn't change anything other than you're wasting the money without really being the good person you're pretending to be.
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2kids10horses
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Post by 2kids10horses on May 23, 2011 22:40:18 GMT -5
Paul,
I think there's going to be alot of people who find hoards of silver or gold where people have stashed them.
I doubt that the hoards would be found in the current crop of foreclosures. This kind of think would happen when you buy the house of an elderly deceased person. We have purchased several of those. Never found a hoard, tho. The closest we've come is we had a tenant who was a vendor for the Atlanta Braves. When they left, they left behind a lot of pins, Olympic pins, and stuff they sell at the stadium.
I also once had as a tenant a batboy for the Braves. He had all kinds of signed jerseys and stuff that really were worth a lot of money. He didn't leave any behind. Rats.
To your point: If I were to find a hoard in a foreclosure, I sure as heck would not give it to Fannie Mae! I'd keep it. If I bought an estate house from Jr, and found that Sr had been hoarding cash all his life, I'd probably give it to Jr. I wouldn't have bought the house if I hadn't bought it for a steal. I don't think I could sleep well if I didn't give it to Jr. Hopefully, he'd give me a reward!
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on May 23, 2011 23:26:24 GMT -5
I bought a house out of probate a few years ago at the height of the real estate bubble-- summer of 2006. It was an old farm house on Sleight Street in Naperville-- 103 years old. Had been MOVED (physically picked up and moved) three times. Knob and tube wiring. It was a block from the train station, and a block north of the Historical District (or what I like to call the hysterical district).
Heirs had NO idea what it was worth. Their IL attorney had no idea, or didn't advise them well. They had it listed for $350K-- and at that time there were two houses ON THAT BLOCK listed for $600 and up. The lot was narrow, and there were probably some issues with building-- but I knew the area, and the hysteria. There's an 8 year waiting list for parking at that train station. It was walking distance to all the downtown Naperville amenities.
I made a full price cash offer and then immediately assigned the contract for $15K because I didn't want to take on a construction project of that magnitude. The guy who bought it from me didn't quite have the experience to do what needed to be done, so he sold it cheap to a builder who was left holding the bag because his lines of credit got pulled and everything turned to sh** in the spring and summer of 2007.
So, did I do anything unethical by snapping up a property I knew was underpriced? Did I have an obligation to "return" equity the heirs left on the table?
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on May 23, 2011 23:33:34 GMT -5
I tend to look at those kinds of situations as tests. I've only found money once, a little over $100 in a wallet in a parking lot. I tracked the owner down by calling her job (her paycheck was in the wallet also) explaining why I was calling, and leaving my phone number. I met her at a gas station and gave her the wallet, contents intact. She was so grateful.......... it was right before Christmas, she had just left her husband with 2 small kids, and she hadn't even realized the wallet was missing until her job called her with my message. I got more joy from her reaction than anything I could've spent her money on. Anyway, $45k, I know I'd be mighty tempted to keep it but I think I'd try to return it to it's rightful owner. I'd be too afraid that it'll cost me some other way if I fail the test. I know........ the *test* thing is probably weird. Of course I'd return the wallet. It'd be illegal not to do so in most places-- and immoral, because I'd KNOW for fairly certain the rightful owner is the person whose pay stub accompanied the money in the wallet. But as I've stated before-- what if YOU are the rightful owner? What if, by the laws in your state, that money was legally conveyed to you in the sale?
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on May 24, 2011 1:52:33 GMT -5
But as I've stated before-- what if YOU are the rightful owner? What if, by the laws in your state, that money was legally conveyed to you in the sale? Whatever helps you sleep at night. Besides, you're the one who thinks you have to meet your maker later and answer for your transgressions. My belief system says when you die, that's it. No afterlife, no reward for good behavior or punishment for bad. We get one life and that's it. Therefor, it's a pretty douchy move to inflict pain on another human being during their one go round. Now in this case the heir apparently didn't know about the money, so you could argue that it's a totally victim-less crime, but I still say it's unethical and I hope I'd be good enough to turn it over.
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