NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 27, 2011 13:40:13 GMT -5
It might help your case to download some random guy parts pictures onto your cell phone and claim it came from him, Firebird.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 27, 2011 13:42:29 GMT -5
DramaQ, I'm insulted. There's no need to make shit up - it's enough that he did something which could POTENTIALLY make me uncomfortable in ANY way, regardless of his intent. Because I am an overemotional drama queen who reads into every little thing and man, he sure was taking a huge risk by doing something so OVERTLY ROMANTIC, wouldn't you say?
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 27, 2011 13:45:17 GMT -5
Touche. Okay, instead of the pictures start talking to fellow female co-workers about his dirty sleazy pick up tactics so you can find out if anyone else has experienced the same thing.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 27, 2011 13:47:21 GMT -5
Great idea! I'm completely positive that at some point in his career, he has complimented one of the other woman with whom he works. He's a friendly, outgoing, hardworking guy and we need to put a STOP to that kind of social chitchat.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 27, 2011 13:49:38 GMT -5
Make sure to wear a low cut top so when your jumblies fall out you can catch him staring at them.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 27, 2011 13:50:26 GMT -5
Why do you need to compliment anybody at work for anything other than their job performance? I compliment my friends but that's a different setting. Work is work and social is social.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Apr 27, 2011 13:57:42 GMT -5
...:::"They also had to crawl in the window at night and rape their wives. Not a romantic bunch.":::...
I don't think they sought to be remembered as romantic.
...:::"hey, some people may be uncomfortable with hearing about the medical/personal part of the pregnancy, would you mind stopping it?":::...
The problem is that almost everyone is somewhat uncomfortable with something that everyone else thinks is reasonable.
Look, this isn't the 3 bears house. There is no "just right", at least not permanently.
There are always going to be people that get the shaft in these situations, because a policy simply cannot accommodate everyone 100%. If you make it too lax, then people harass and get away with it. If you make it too strict, then innocent people get caught in the crossfire.
People talk out of both sides of their mouths because they all agree that "nothing is perfect" but then they themselves never want to be the ones who don't have a chair when the music stops. Sure we are human and we'd rather someone else suffer instead of us, but lets at least be honest about it.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Apr 27, 2011 13:57:57 GMT -5
When I asked him why a guy would be worried, he said "because they know they have crossed the line at some point or they already have been accused". Uh... ok. You're wrong actually, I've never been accused. I've never even had a coworker tell me I was crossing a line, talk to my supervisor or anything. It hasn't happened because for the most part I keep my coworkers at arms length so it can't happen. Why does it bother you ladies so much that I'm not at work to be social? I do things on my time for fun. I have my social time on my time. I come to work so I can make money, I'm not here to make friends. Why do I have to mix the two? Why would I even want to? Friendships at work have the potential to be a liability. In the military I got promoted faster than everyone else in my unit. That meant that all the people I was hanging out with, friends with, went through training with, etc., were now my subordinates. You know what I learned? It makes your job as a supervisor ten times harder if you have personal relationship crap interfering with your professional relationships. Even if you can keep it from happening the perception that it happens is always going to be there. Maybe the woman you write a glowing performance report for actually earned it because she was by far the best troop you supervised, but if you're also really good friends, then some people will call it favoritism. You know who complains the loudest? The worst freaking troop in the unit. The dude who always has the hardest time doing his job, the one that's the biggest discipline problem, the one that you end up standing next to in front the commanders desk constantly while you both get your ass chewed for his screw up. That's the guy who's convinced that you play favorites and you're out to get him. Skip the personal relationships and it's a lot easier to pull him into a room to tell him he needs to pull his head out of his ass before you're forced to do it for him. When you recommend the woman for early promotion, and give him a low scoring EPR which all but guarantees he can't be promoted that cycle, nobody can start grumbling about personal relationships or playing favorites. A lot of workplace drama could be avoided if more supervisors would learn that lesson.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 27, 2011 13:59:43 GMT -5
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 27, 2011 14:06:44 GMT -5
Just in case there is the slightest confusion regarding my last few posts:
1) Yes, I really did get flowers this morning from one of the men I work with as a thank you for helping him on a work-related matter. They are lovely and I was very touched by the gesture.
2) Yes, this guy really is gregarious and hardworking and all-around awesome.
3) No, he has never been the slightest bit inappropriate with me or anyone else but he HAS on occasion - gasp! - asked me about my life and told me about his, and we somehow managed to avoid drama. Possibly because I don't look for injury and harassment in every conceivable interaction with my coworkers, which apparently makes me quite different from the ladies y'all have the displeasure of interacting with at work.
4) There's only one guy in the whole company who could make me feel uncomfortable by giving me flowers - which is the one who has made me feel unsafe in the past - and even if he did, I still wouldn't report him and attempt to wreck his life and career. At least not without some investigation on my own part regarding what was behind it - i.e., if he gave me flowers because he'd heard about a death in my family, that would be very different from him giving me flowers because he was making another attempt to make me feel unsafe and squicked out.
But, you know, apparently I'm still an overemotional girl because I would not be okay with hearing a coworker tell another coworker he had a nice ass.
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strider
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Post by strider on Apr 27, 2011 14:14:28 GMT -5
I have women at work that specifically bring me (not the rest of the group) candy. I am able to talk with them and carry a conversation. I don't think it's sexual harassment.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2011 15:15:15 GMT -5
Friendships at work have the potential to be a liability. In the military I got promoted faster than everyone else in my unit. That meant that all the people I was hanging out with, friends with, went through training with, etc., were now my subordinates. You know what I learned? It makes your job as a supervisor ten times harder if you have personal relationship crap interfering with your professional relationships. Even if you can keep it from happening the perception that it happens is always going to be there. Maybe the woman you write a glowing performance report for actually earned it because she was by far the best troop you supervised, but if you're also really good friends, then some people will call it favoritism. You know who complains the loudest? The worst freaking troop in the unit. The dude who always has the hardest time doing his job, the one that's the biggest discipline problem, the one that you end up standing next to in front the commanders desk constantly while you both get your ass chewed for his screw up. That's the guy who's convinced that you play favorites and you're out to get him.
Skip the personal relationships and it's a lot easier to pull him into a room to tell him he needs to pull his head out of his ass before you're forced to do it for him. When you recommend the woman for early promotion, and give him a low scoring EPR which all but guarantees he can't be promoted that cycle, nobody can start grumbling about personal relationships or playing favorites. A lot of workplace drama could be avoided if more supervisors would learn that lesson.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Apr 27, 2011 15:35:57 GMT -5
There was a very talented guy here who was pretty friendly with us. But he was also able to sever connections and chase success. He got wind of a really good opportunity on a Wednesday, interviewed that Friday, and reported for duty that Monday.
There is a major correlation between people who do not have attachments, and people who are successful.
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strider
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Post by strider on Apr 27, 2011 15:45:01 GMT -5
Hopefully people talk about me like that if I leave. I applied for a job closer to home too. Hope I get it. Besides my faux pa I try to help as much as I can. However, I will go after opportunity if it's there in this economy.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 27, 2011 16:03:46 GMT -5
Why does it bother you ladies so much that I'm not at work to be social? I do things on my time for fun. I have my social time on my time. I come to work so I can make money, I'm not here to make friends. Why do I have to mix the two? Why would I even want to?
It doesn't bother me one bit. It's absolutely your choice whether or not to be social, and you have good reasons for NOT being social.
The part I take issue with is the way you keep saying that it's the danger of having an innocuous comment taken wrongly enough to wreck your entire career that keeps you from being social. You're totally within your rights to not socialize for that reason, I just think it's a pretty dumb one.
In a reasonable atmosphere, 99 times out of 100, you are NOT going to be implicated in a sexual harassment complaint unless you deserve to be and acting like that's not the case because women are silly and overemotional and out to get you over every little thing is sexist and disgusting, to say nothing of being completely untrue.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Apr 27, 2011 16:22:49 GMT -5
Stop lumping me in with the other comments. I never once in this thread, or any thread on this board, said that women are silly, over emotional, scheming, lying, or manipulative. Obviously they can be any of those things, just like men can. In a reasonable atmosphere, 99 times out of 100, you are NOT going to be implicated in a sexual harassment complaint And you can all but eliminate that 1 out of 100 by not interacting with the unreasonable, scheming, lying, manipulating, bastards (of EITHER freaking sex), by not getting too friendly with your coworkers. Look at your flower example. The supervisor that got those for you obviously felt that you did a good job and wanted to say thanks. If he writes your performance reviews, you'll probably get a good one. It could lead to a promotion at work. Most reasonable people would just see hard work and correlation. Some bitter shrew who didn't get the promotion will see a romantic fling. Why else would he be bringing you flowers they reason. Next thing you know you get a promotion that they feel they should have gotten, only because you're sleeping with the boss. Now you have some bitter moron possibly looking for any excuse to sabotage either one of you, rumors going around that you're sleeping your way to the top, the whole ball of wax. A problem that's a lot less likely to creep up, or would have less traction when it does, if he'd just written you a nice thank you email. Apparently you only work with kind, supporting, rationale people though, and I'm the only weirdo that works with the occasional bitter, resentful, drama loving, pain in the ass.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 27, 2011 16:27:32 GMT -5
"The part I take issue with is the way you keep saying that it's the danger of having an innocuous comment taken wrongly enough to wreck your entire career that keeps you from being social. You're totally within your rights to not socialize for that reason, I just think it's a pretty dumb one. "
Of course you think it's dumb, because YOU don't have to deal with a gender who thinks you're at all times one look away from raping them. You don't have to deal with a gender who has become so caught up in this idea that they are all victims of everything. That nothing is their fault and that at all times someone out there is planning ways to continue making them a victim. You seem to think that's untrue even as you prove via your attitude that the attitude is not only alive and well, but that those who possess it don't even have the self-awareness to recognize it.
"In a reasonable atmosphere, 99 times out of 100, you are NOT going to be implicated in a sexual harassment complaint unless you deserve to be and acting like that's not the case because women are silly and overemotional and out to get you over every little thing is sexist and disgusting, to say nothing of being completely untrue."
Since you love talking about "rape culture" (another sign that you view women as victims), would you think it's smart to walk around your apartment building nude talking to guys? 99 times out of 100 you're not going to be raped...does that make it a good idea? Or does that 1 time, and the consequences of it, mean that you should avoid that activity?
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 27, 2011 16:30:09 GMT -5
Apparently you only work with kind, supporting, rationale people though, and I'm the only weirdo that works with the occasional bitter, resentful, drama loving, pain in the ass.
Yeah, apparently you are. I'm not the only one that would be completely and totally blindsided if anything approaching the scenario you outlined ever happened here. It would just be ridiculous beyond believe. Everyone would avoid that person after something like that, not just the people s/he implicated in such a way.
Stop lumping me in with the other comments. I never once in this thread, or any thread on this board, said that women are silly, over emotional, scheming, lying, or manipulative. Obviously they can be any of those things, just like men can.
I know, but you have said several times that part of the reason you avoid socializing with colleagues is because something could be taken the wrong way and your career could be wrecked. And I keep saying it's (almost certainly) not going to happen if you're careful and you keep coming back with "Well it COULD happen."
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moon/Laura
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Post by moon/Laura on Apr 27, 2011 16:30:52 GMT -5
Why do you need to compliment anybody at work for anything other than their job performance? it's called "being human". friendly conversation. man, if my job was as restrictive as some of you like yours to be, i would HATE it.. I have women at work that specifically bring me (not the rest of the group) candy. I am able to talk with them and carry a conversation. I don't think it's sexual harassment. one of our night shift leads brings me cookies and stuff. he's in his 60's- a classic "dirty old man".. but you know what? he has never made any inappropriate remarks or anything.. our personal joke is me calling him my chocolate sugar daddy... however, he does make a point to say, "i'm giving these to you but share with the team" - which i would anyway. why make a big deal of it or pretend it's anything more than that?
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Apr 27, 2011 16:35:22 GMT -5
...:::"Look at your flower example. The supervisor that got those for you obviously felt that you did a good job and wanted to say thanks.":::...
Dark is spot on with how your innocent example could cascade. Flowers are typically a romantic gesture, even if the flowers themselves are not red roses. Not to mention that, another woman receiving flowers from her boss might have read a completely different interpretation. She could have feared that the flowers were a foot in the door, and it was only a matter of time before other gifts, requests for dates, and then demands for sex followed.
...:::"In a reasonable atmosphere, 99 times out of 100, you are NOT going to be implicated in a sexual harassment complaint unless you deserve to be":::...
It only takes that one. As such, we are back to the only way to be completely certain is to do what Dark is doing.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 27, 2011 16:35:39 GMT -5
"Yeah, apparently you are. I'm not the only one that would be completely and totally blindsided if anything approaching the scenario you outlined ever happened here. It would just be ridiculous beyond believe. Everyone would avoid that person after something like that, not just the people s/he implicated in such a way."
Speaking of blind sides, you don't see a potentially big one given that you keep making this statement, as do the other women...while every man seems to point out that that's not how it really is.
"And I keep saying it's (almost certainly) not going to happen if you're careful and you keep coming back with "Well it COULD happen." "
Shockingly, your "say so" doesn't make it true.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Apr 27, 2011 16:38:19 GMT -5
And I keep saying it's (almost certainly) not going to happen if you're careful and you keep coming back with "Well it COULD happen." See that bolded part? Why risk it? What exactly is the upside? I increase the risk that some personal relationship negatively impacts my career in some way (not necessarily sexual harassment although that's a possibility), and what exactly do I get out of it? Mindless chit chat about what's going on in people's church groups, who's kid just graduated second grade, office gossip about who's dating who, more medical history on some of my colleagues than their doctors have, and countless hours of discussion about reality TV.... whoopdi freaking doo. I'm not the only one that would be completely and totally blindsided if anything approaching the scenario you outlined ever happened here. It would just be ridiculous beyond believe. Everyone would avoid that person after something like that, not just the people s/he implicated in such a way. That's pretty close to what happened to me while I was in the military, and the girl I was supposedly sleeping with was a lesbian. At least half the unit had hung out with her and her girlfriend while off duty. The whole thing was nuts. My commanders knew it was bullshit so it never went anywhere, but if you think nobody you work with could be that delusional and petty you're probably being somewhat naive.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 27, 2011 16:39:11 GMT -5
"it's called "being human". friendly conversation. man, if my job was as restrictive as some of you like yours to be, i would HATE it.. "
And you're a woman, you can do it to your heart's content without worry for the most part.
"our personal joke is me calling him my chocolate sugar daddy"
There's a reason you can do this and get away with it, guys aren't so thin-skinned and seeking out reasons to be offended.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Apr 27, 2011 16:42:02 GMT -5
Out of curiousity, what % of women do you think fit the "thin skinned, dramatic, always looking to be offended by something" personality?
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strider
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Post by strider on Apr 27, 2011 16:42:53 GMT -5
I wouldn't call a girl my chocolate sugar mama. Oh man, that'd be bad. Just saying. Way worse than the "easy on the eyes" comment.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 27, 2011 16:54:30 GMT -5
See that bolded part? Why risk it? What exactly is the upside? I increase the risk that some personal relationship negatively impacts my career in some way (not necessarily sexual harassment although that's a possibility), and what exactly do I get out of it? Mindless chit chat about what's going on in people's church groups, who's kid just graduated second grade, office gossip about who's dating who, more medical history on some of my colleagues than their doctors have, and countless hours of discussion about reality TV.... whoopdi freaking doo.
Not wanting to, though, is different from feeling like you CAN'T because you have to walk on eggshells all the time when you don't.
That's pretty close to what happened to me while I was in the military, and the girl I was supposedly sleeping with was a lesbian. My commanders knew it was bullshit so it never went anywhere, but if you think nobody you work with could be that delusional and petty you're probably being somewhat naive.
Perhaps. But perhaps not. My company is getting pretty big, and we've got a lot of young women and men who love a good piece of gossip or drama. If giving me flowers was such a tremendous risk, do you really think that he'd have done it? If he thought there was the slightest chance that it might get misinterpreted, wouldn't he have just gotten me a gift card? Are you saying he's naive? Or are we both pretty reasonable to assume that in our corporate culture, there's no one out to get him since we have never seen that happen before and we know we work with good people?
I just don't see the point of going through life missing out on something that could be good because you're afraid of the (really, really unlikely) possibility that it might go wrong in this particular way. (Again, if you don't WANT to socialize that's different.) I love where I work, in large part because we do have such a caring, fun and friendly atmosphere. It's not something I've ever experienced before and if I limited my interactions with my colleagues to strictly professional things, then it wouldn't be nearly as fun to work here.
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moon/Laura
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Post by moon/Laura on Apr 27, 2011 17:05:21 GMT -5
Out of curiousity, what % of women do you think fit the "thin skinned, dramatic, always looking to be offended by something" personality? beats me.. i work for a huge global corporation but out of the people in my immediate area, i don't know ANY woman that i'd say fit that description. i tend to be very easygoing, and little offends me. if i don't care for someone (male or female), i just won't talk to them unless i need to. "it's called "being human". friendly conversation. man, if my job was as restrictive as some of you like yours to be, i would HATE it.. " And you're a woman, you can do it to your heart's content without worry for the most part. "our personal joke is me calling him my chocolate sugar daddy" There's a reason you can do this and get away with it, guys aren't so thin-skinned and seeking out reasons to be offended. i don't think i can 'get away with it' because i'm female.. i just make sure i know who the person i'm joking around with very well first. and i also would not be the slightest bit upset if a guy called me his chocolate sugar mama in similar circumstances. in fact, i DO bring my team chocolate... i think corporate america has largely lost its humanity and sense of humor.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 27, 2011 17:10:25 GMT -5
It only takes that one. As such, we are back to the only way to be completely certain is to do what Dark is doing.
It's good to be cautious, but there is such a thing as taking it too far. I mentioned my dad's refusal to be alone with women outside his immediate family. I personally think that's fine, even a good idea for some people (outside professional situations where you have no choice). But there was a time when he extrapolated that out to the point where he did not talk to ANY women outside his immediate family, EVER, except when he had to in a professional situation.
When I had a friend over and she said hello to him, he would nod and perhaps grunt. Not a word of acknowledgment, wouldn't even look her way. Same thing when we had guests over. He wouldn't even acknowledge the woman unless he had to, and even then he wouldn't even look at her. Guess what? It was damn rude and drove my mother and me crazy. He was just trying to avoid even a HINT of impropriety and he took it way, way too far.
This weekend, he went to look at dresses with my mom and I, plus one of my bridesmaids whom I've known since middle school (so naturally she knows my parents). When my friend got out of the car, she hugged me, then my mom, then my dad. I was very impressed when he managed to hug her back, smile, and say hello. He's changed a lot in the past few years, for the better.
Anyway, my point is that while it's good to not be inappropriate in your dealings with women, there's such a thing as too much of a good thing.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Apr 27, 2011 17:11:07 GMT -5
Oh and one other question, more of a poll really, would the people who are both pro and con socializing at work please state whether or not you're in a supervisory position? I'm curious if this is really a gender issue, or if people naturally start getting more guarded as they move up the ladder.
As a junior enlisted person I was very social at work. It bit me in the ass to a certain extent as an NCO. When I started in the private sector I was more social at work again, but not to the extent I was initially, and when I was promoted to a supervisory position I got fairly guarded. Part of it is also the team that was here when I started, the problems that the previous supervisor had with said team, and the team that's here now. They do good work, they're sharp, I don't have a whole lot in common with them though. They youngest one is twenty years my senior. I live almost 40 miles away too which I think helps contribute to a separation between your work life and home life. I don't share churches, clubs, activities, or sports with the people I work with, and I don't run into them outside of work because I live in a different city entirely.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Apr 27, 2011 17:17:03 GMT -5
If he thought there was the slightest chance that it might get misinterpreted, wouldn't he have just gotten me a gift card? Are you saying he's naive? Yes, and a little bit. Or are we both pretty reasonable to assume that in our corporate culture, there's no one out to get him since we have never seen that happen before and we know we work with good people? LOL! You really don't think there's anyone you work with that would happily throw him under the proverbial bus in order to take his job? Your company wouldn't by chance pay all their employees slave wages or something would they? Do I really have to be the first person to ever tell you that people sometimes lie, cheat, and steal to get what they want, or do you somehow think that rule doesn't apply to your coworkers for some reason?
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