Iran attacks Israel

[Spellbound454]

Its not ok, of course its not ok

Just trying to widen the argument to show that the Israelis have been suffering for a long time and this is not all one way.

Today is October the 7th a year after Hamas broke in to a dance festival and murdered 1200  young people and took 250 hostages.

the worst mass killing of Jews since the Holocaust.

It gets lost amid the reporting of peoples own political indulgences,


Plus I'm concerned.. Israel are going to attack Iran and the whole Middle East could be at War,

[djAdvocate]

Oct 7, 2024 13:00:20 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

Its not ok, of course its not ok

Just trying to widen the argument to show that the Israelis have been suffering for a long time and this is not all one way.

Today is October the 7th a year after Hamas broke in to a dance festival and murdered 1200  young people and took 250 hostages.

the worst mass killing of Jews since the Holocaust.

It gets lost amid the reporting of peoples own political indulgences,


Plus I'm concerned.. Israel are going to attack Iran and the whole Middle East could be at War,

there is almost unanimous support for Israel in our American institutions- government and the media.

there is almost unanimous condemnation of Hamas (and by proxy, Palestine) in those same institutions.

i am just wondering what you are suggesting.  because there have been roughly 50x as many Pals killed as Israeli's.  i don't think "genocide of Jews" is a fair description for the current conflict, at all.  in fact, it is Putinesque.

[pulmonarymd]

Iran and Saudi Arabia have met and apparently are talking about strengthening ties. Iran met with Egypt. Saudi Arabia said they are not going to proceed with normalizing relations with Israel unless Israel recognizes the 2 state solution. Doesn’t seem like the Midgle East will be any safer for Israel in the near future. And think about what a better relationship between Iran and Saudi Arabia will mean. A stronger OPEC. More manipulation of oil prices.

As I asked before, what is Israel’s end game. How do they move forward after they “finish the job”.

[Spellbound454]

Ok, You guys had an horrendous terrorist attack also..... 9/11 from an Islamist terror faction

Nobody suggested that you sit down with Al Qaeda and talk about peace.

You Launched a "War on Terrorism" the death toll from which, was in excess of 900 thousand

So its a bit rich to say from afar, that you have to sit down and broker peace deals with the terrorists that surround you, have been attacking you every day for 16 years and still hold your hostages.



What did you expect Israel to do?



Would you have done the same if Al Qaeda was attacking every day for 16 years?........  For sure you would.


They haven't touched you again.



judge and jury of social media has got a short memory.

[pulmonarymd]

Again, our problem is far different than Israel’s. We have an ocean between us and the Middle East. Israel has millions of Arabs in what the right wing Israelis want to call greater Israel, in addition Gaza. What is the plan for dealing with these individuals.

We are talking the political realities. There has been over 75 years to come up with a solution to the “Palestinian problem”. Neither side wants a solution. The radicals on both side do not want one. But this situation has now thrown Saudi Arabia and Egypt into Iran’s arms. How does that make anyone safer? You make peace with your enemies, not your friends. What is Israel’s end game? To live with missles being lobbed into northern Israel every day. As weapons continue to advance, Israel will never lets be in peace without some form of peace. And that peace will require a Palestinian homeland, unl SS you propose forcibly dispacing millions of people yet again

[djAdvocate]

Oct 21, 2024 4:09:50 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

Ok, You guys had an horrendous terrorist attack also..... 9/11 from an Islamist terror faction

Nobody suggested that you sit down with Al Qaeda and talk about peace.

You Launched a "War on Terrorism" the death toll from which, was in excess of 900 thousand

So its a bit rich to say from afar, that you have to sit down and broker peace deals with the terrorists that surround you, have been attacking you every day for 16 years and still hold your hostages.

sure.  but that is not what i am saying.

what i say is that what we did in Iraq particularly constitutes a War Crime, and that Bush is a War Criminal.  he should be tried as such in the Hague, and if found guilty, should receive the appropriate sentence.

as to your second suggestion (which i marked in bold), asymmetrical warfare is different than state conflict.  if Hamas is indeed a terrorist organization, then they are subject to trans-national law regarding terrorists.  otherwise, the parties in the conflict are subject to international law that states must adhere to.

what Israel is doing is trying to have the best of both worlds to suit their needs (which, if you will ask me, is something the US does, too- and it doesn't make it right when they do it, either).  that is clever, but it is not legal, just, or fair.

so, using the same standard i used for Bush, Netanyahu is a War Criminal, and should be tried for his crimes in the Hague.  if you are being fair in this discussion, you will either agree with me, or stop calling me a hypocrite.  i am completely consistent.

[djAdvocate]

Spellbound454- i am going to try asking you again:

what are you suggesting should happen?

[Spellbound454]

They have already had a two state solution...... The Israelis moved out of the prosperous Gaza strip in 2005 ... and yes some Israelis  lost their homes.

Money and building materials poured in from all over the World

They has an election and elected Hamas as their government. (who then killed the opposition so no more elections)

The building materials were used to make tunnels, the borders were used to smuggle in weaponry

and the whole place became a terrorist enclave from which to spread hatred and launch attacks.

Culminating in the atrocious October 7 attack.


It cannot go on like this, no country could put up with that.


My suggestion would be  to have a proxy government from representative interested parties ... ie Egypt, Qatar

to try and shape the area in to something more functioning.... that's if Gaza remains separate.

Of course, some Israelis want to re populate the area, as happens in other parts of the Country where they live along side.

That might not be a bad plan either ... If they are together they'll have to get on.

Any tunnel building or hate crimes could be dealt with by law enforcement.

but honestly the two state solution as was..... is dead in the water. There has to be changes.

[Spellbound454]

  But this situation has now thrown Saudi Arabia and Egypt into Iran’s arms.

Biden upset the Saudi prince by calling him a "Pariah"

Yes we know he is unsavoury but as I heard on a program the other day ...... the US/Saudi relationship was too important to throw the baby out with the bath water without proof.
Even when you suspect the baby is a murderer.

[pulmonarymd]

Oct 22, 2024 11:06:11 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

  But this situation has now thrown Saudi Arabia and Egypt into Iran’s arms.

Biden upset the Saudi prince by calling him a "Pariah"

Yes we know he is unsavoury but as I heard on a program the other day ...... the US/Saudi relationship was too important to throw the baby out with the bath water without proof.
Even when you suspect the baby is a murderer.

Perfect in international affairs is unattainable. Practically is what moves things forward. Saudi Arabia and Israel were inching forward towards some sort of functional relationship. That helps Israel and would ratchet down the risk of war. Sounds like a good thing. That has blown up now. Seems like we and Israel are in a worse place.

Nixon normalized ties with China, and Mao was responsible for how many deaths. Do you think normalizing the relationship with them was wrong? The US normalized relations with the USSR, leading to the SALT treaties. Was that bad? You don’t have to make peace with your friends. And as we see in this election, we want cheap gas prices. So we hold our nose and deal with the Saudis so we have cheap gas

[djAdvocate]

Oct 22, 2024 10:59:18 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

They have already had a two state solution...... The Israelis moved out of the prosperous Gaza strip in 2005 ... and yes some Israelis  lost their homes.

Money and building materials poured in from all over the World

They has an election and elected Hamas as their government. (who then killed the opposition so no more elections)

The building materials were used to make tunnels, the borders were used to smuggle in weaponry

and the whole place became a terrorist enclave from which to spread hatred and launch attacks.

Culminating in the atrocious October 7 attack.


It cannot go on like this, no country could put up with that.


My suggestion would be  to have a proxy government from representative interested parties ... ie Egypt, Qatar

to try and shape the area in to something more functioning.... that's if Gaza remains separate.

Of course, some Israelis want to re populate the area, as happens in other parts of the Country where they live along side.

That might not be a bad plan either ... If they are together they'll have to get on.

Any tunnel building or hate crimes could be dealt with by law enforcement.

but honestly the two state solution as was..... is dead in the water. There has to be changes.

i am not talking about next year, i am talking about tomorrow.

what is the FIRST STEP that needs to be made to achieve the above?

edit: thanks for the reply, btw.  very few people on this board give this much thought to their responses.  i appreciate it.

[pulmonarymd]

So, if Israel repopulates Gaza and remains in control of the West Bank, do the Palestinians become Israeli citizens? That is the crux of the Greater Israel problem. By granting citizenship to the Palestinians in its border, demographics will eventually make Jews the minority, and Israel is no longer a Jewish state. If they do not grant them citizenship, then they will have a permanent underclass with limited rights, and a breeding ground for unrest. Forcibly deporting them is a war crime. Until that problem is solved, Israel will not have peace. But like republicans in the US, Netanyahu and his government refuse to accept reality

[Spellbound454]

" what is the FIRST STEP that needs to be made to achieve the above"

The return of the hostages. Israel will turn the place upside-down until they are found.

I see a religious leader has condemned Hamas, he must be the first one brave enough to do this.

Hamas must be replaced.

 So, if Israel repopulates Gaza and remains in control of the West Bank, do the Palestinians become Israeli citizens? That is the crux of the Greater Israel problem. By granting citizenship to the Palestinians in its border, demographics will eventually make Jews the minority, and Israel is no longer a Jewish state. If they do not grant them citizenship, then they will have a permanent underclass with limited rights, and a breeding ground for unrest. Forcibly deporting them is a war crime. Until that problem is solved, Israel will not have peace. But like republicans in the US, Netanyahu and his government refuse to accept reality

Palestinians have Arab/Israeli citizenship and if they can function and assimilate into that Countrywide Laws, all well and good.
Most country will have all sorts of populations which function normally and are protected. They are still subject to government.

Its not a war crime to throw terrorists out of your country, we do it all the time.

[pulmonarymd]

Collective punishment is. Are you saying that Israel should deport all Arabs from the West Bank? If not, do they remain in limbo? Israel has not yet annexed the West Bank. If they do, do those Palestinians become Israeli citizens? As to Gaza. Does it become its own nation eventually? If so, they are allowed to choose their leaders without interference.

[desertsue]

Oct 22, 2024 17:37:51 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Oct 22, 2024 10:59:18 GMT -5 Spellbound454 said:

They have already had a two state solution...... The Israelis moved out of the prosperous Gaza strip in 2005 ... and yes some Israelis  lost their homes.

Money and building materials poured in from all over the World

They has an election and elected Hamas as their government. (who then killed the opposition so no more elections)

The building materials were used to make tunnels, the borders were used to smuggle in weaponry

and the whole place became a terrorist enclave from which to spread hatred and launch attacks.

Culminating in the atrocious October 7 attack.


It cannot go on like this, no country could put up with that.


My suggestion would be  to have a proxy government from representative interested parties ... ie Egypt, Qatar

to try and shape the area in to something more functioning.... that's if Gaza remains separate.

Of course, some Israelis want to re populate the area, as happens in other parts of the Country where they live along side.

That might not be a bad plan either ... If they are together they'll have to get on.

Any tunnel building or hate crimes could be dealt with by law enforcement.

but honestly the two state solution as was..... is dead in the water. There has to be changes.

i am not talking about next year, i am talking about tomorrow.

what is the FIRST STEP that needs to be made to achieve the above?

edit: thanks for the reply, btw.  very few people on this board give this much thought to their responses.  i appreciate it.

The first step would be Jews leaving Israel and giving it back to the people who rightfully own it.

The English set this all up...but they forgot to ask anyone who lives there if they were ok with it.  This was during the time that the sun never set on the English Empire.  And now apparantly they still want to run things there.  All they have ever done is exploit for natural resources and nobody cares about them or their opinions anymore.  Go away, go back to your own island.  Tend to your own affairs please.

[billisonboard]

Nov 15, 2024 4:22:37 GMT -5 desertsue said:

Oct 22, 2024 17:37:51 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i am not talking about next year, i am talking about tomorrow.

what is the FIRST STEP that needs to be made to achieve the above?

edit: thanks for the reply, btw.  very few people on this board give this much thought to their responses.  i appreciate it.

The first step would be Jews leaving Israel and giving it back to the people who rightfully own it.

The English set this all up...but they forgot to ask anyone who lives there if they were ok with it.  This was during the time that the sun never set on the English Empire.  And now apparantly they still want to run things there.  All they have ever done is exploit for natural resources and nobody cares about them or their opinions anymore.  Go away, go back to your own island.  Tend to your own affairs please.

eazee peezee.

But just for funzee, say the Jews in Israel won't leave. What would the world do.