Mom convicted for mass murder son

[happyhoix]

May get up to 15 years in jail.

www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/michigan-mother-found-responsible-for-son-s-actions-in-high-school-mass-shooting-how-we-got-here-and-what-s-next/ar-BB1hSLl6?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=024a86e44df44321aaa3ff01e836fd78&ei=7

I was initially skeptical about this, but the school called her and her husband to the school and showed them graphic pictures he had drawn and asked the parents to take their son directly to a mental health hospital. They declined because, they said, they had to get back to work.

That very day he shot four classmates dead with a gun his parents gifted to him.

Dad goes on trial next.

[Opti]

I think it is the only way to get some people to take stuff like this seriously. The sad thing is I wonder if their hands off parenting approach made him into the person that wanted to kill people.

[Tennesseer]

Good.  Enough of these careless parents.

[Tennesseer]

Feb 6, 2024 18:42:24 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

May get up to 15 years in jail.

www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/michigan-mother-found-responsible-for-son-s-actions-in-high-school-mass-shooting-how-we-got-here-and-what-s-next/ar-BB1hSLl6?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=024a86e44df44321aaa3ff01e836fd78&ei=7

I was initially skeptical about this, but the school called her and her husband to the school and showed them graphic pictures he had drawn and asked the parents to take their son directly to a mental health hospital. They declined because, they said, they had to get back to work.

That very day he shot four classmates dead with a gun his parents gifted to him.

Dad goes on trial next.

Dad should be shittin' in his pants. And well he should be.

[chiver78]

I just heard this on the news, and all I have to say is good. I hope she gets more than the 15y someone else mentioned. the transcripts of the texts between her and her son both before and after? sorry, no ma'am. you could have absolutely prevented this and didn't.

[Tennesseer]

Opinion: The Jennifer Crumbley verdict is a powerful warning to parents

Jennifer Crumbley, the mother of a teenager who shot and killed four students and injured seven others at an Oxford, Michigan school in 2021, was found guilty Tuesday of all four counts of involuntary manslaughter. For this novel legal case, the jury of 12 deliberated for over 10 hours. Her son, Ethan Crumbley, who was 15 at the time of the shooting, pled guilty to one count of terrorism causing death, four counts of murder and 19 other charges related to the shooting and was sentenced last year to life in prison without parole. She’ll be sentenced on April 9.

Her defense attorney, Shannon Smith, said Ethan’s crime was so horrendous that “it was unforeseeable.” But prosecutors disagreed, saying that the teen’s parents were aware that he was in crisis and had access to a gun and willfully disregarded the warning signs anyway. They alleged the parents bought their 15-year-old a 9mm Sig Sauer SP 2022 pistol as an early Christmas gift, a purchase that violated Michigan law. In the judge’s instructions to the jury, the key concept in determining guilt was that of “gross negligence.”

Although parents of mass shooters have been prosecuted in civil court before, the trial of Jennifer Crumbley (and that of the father, James Crumbley, set to begin in March) marks the first time in US history that parents have been charged in criminal court for a mass school shooting committed by their child –and now one has been convicted.

Prosecutors alleged that the Crumbley parents willfully disregarded warning signs that their son was in crisis, did not heed concerns of school administrators, bought him a gun days before the shooting and failed to lock it up. On the morning of the shooting, a teacher found a drawing on Ethan’s desk of a gun, bullet and shooting victim with the words “blood everywhere” and “the thoughts won’t stop, help me.” The teacher notified school authorities, who warned both Crumbley parents and said their son would require counseling.

According to one prosecutor, both parents “resisted the idea” of their son leaving school at that time and “failed to ask if their son had his gun with them or where his gun was located and failed to inspect his backpack for the presence of the gun, which he had with him.”

The question of who may bear responsibility when a minor carries out a shooting has gained fresh scrutiny in recent years, and it’s not just parents under the microscope. Others who could potentially bear liability but remain as yet undetermined range from gun manufacturers that advertise to children to weapons makers that create locks that allow customers to circumvent state bans on assault weapons. Attention has also fallen on Hollywood directors, who perpetuate false and misleading ideas about how guns are used in the real world.

Rest of article here: Opinion: The Jennifer Crumbley verdict is a powerful warning to parents

[Tiny]

How will this ruling effect all the toddlers who shoot and kill themselves or others?   Will their parent(s)/guardian  be charged and possibly sent to prison or receive the death penalty?   

What about minors who commit suicide with a family (or their own) gun?  Will their parent(s) also be charged with a crime that's punishable with prison time (or maybe the death penalty)? 

[thyme4change]

Feb 8, 2024 11:30:28 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Opinion: The Jennifer Crumbley verdict is a powerful warning to parents

Jennifer Crumbley, the mother of a teenager who shot and killed four students and injured seven others at an Oxford, Michigan school in 2021, was found guilty Tuesday of all four counts of involuntary manslaughter. For this novel legal case, the jury of 12 deliberated for over 10 hours. Her son, Ethan Crumbley, who was 15 at the time of the shooting, pled guilty to one count of terrorism causing death, four counts of murder and 19 other charges related to the shooting and was sentenced last year to life in prison without parole. She’ll be sentenced on April 9.

Her defense attorney, Shannon Smith, said Ethan’s crime was so horrendous that “it was unforeseeable.” But prosecutors disagreed, saying that the teen’s parents were aware that he was in crisis and had access to a gun and willfully disregarded the warning signs anyway. They alleged the parents bought their 15-year-old a 9mm Sig Sauer SP 2022 pistol as an early Christmas gift, a purchase that violated Michigan law. In the judge’s instructions to the jury, the key concept in determining guilt was that of “gross negligence.”

Although parents of mass shooters have been prosecuted in civil court before, the trial of Jennifer Crumbley (and that of the father, James Crumbley, set to begin in March) marks the first time in US history that parents have been charged in criminal court for a mass school shooting committed by their child –and now one has been convicted.

Prosecutors alleged that the Crumbley parents willfully disregarded warning signs that their son was in crisis, did not heed concerns of school administrators, bought him a gun days before the shooting and failed to lock it up. On the morning of the shooting, a teacher found a drawing on Ethan’s desk of a gun, bullet and shooting victim with the words “blood everywhere” and “the thoughts won’t stop, help me.” The teacher notified school authorities, who warned both Crumbley parents and said their son would require counseling.

According to one prosecutor, both parents “resisted the idea” of their son leaving school at that time and “failed to ask if their son had his gun with them or where his gun was located and failed to inspect his backpack for the presence of the gun, which he had with him.”

The question of who may bear responsibility when a minor carries out a shooting has gained fresh scrutiny in recent years, and it’s not just parents under the microscope. Others who could potentially bear liability but remain as yet undetermined range from gun manufacturers that advertise to children to weapons makers that create locks that allow customers to circumvent state bans on assault weapons. Attention has also fallen on Hollywood directors, who perpetuate false and misleading ideas about how guns are used in the real world.

Rest of article here: Opinion: The Jennifer Crumbley verdict is a powerful warning to parents

Her defense in regard to the texts telling her he sees demons and hear voices she maintains he was joking.

[Tennesseer]

Feb 8, 2024 13:28:40 GMT -5 Tiny said:

How will this ruling effect all the toddlers who shoot and kill themselves or others?   Will their parent(s)/guardian  be charged and possibly sent to prison or receive the death penalty?   

What about minors who commit suicide with a family (or their own) gun?  Will their parent(s) also be charged with a crime that's punishable with prison time (or maybe the death penalty)? 

I have always found the parents of toddlers or chldren who find family firearms in their home or in a vehicle that were not securely locked up to be responsible for anyone the toddlers or children injure or kill including themselves. There is no excuse, none at all, for firearms not to be tightly and securely locked up.

Overly dramatic about the death penalty, yes?

[andi9899]

Feb 6, 2024 18:42:24 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

May get up to 15 years in jail.

www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/michigan-mother-found-responsible-for-son-s-actions-in-high-school-mass-shooting-how-we-got-here-and-what-s-next/ar-BB1hSLl6?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=024a86e44df44321aaa3ff01e836fd78&ei=7

I was initially skeptical about this, but the school called her and her husband to the school and showed them graphic pictures he had drawn and asked the parents to take their son directly to a mental health hospital. They declined because, they said, they had to get back to work.

That very day he shot four classmates dead with a gun his parents gifted to him.

Dad goes on trial next.

It's up to 15 years for each of the four counts she was convicted of. I hope she gets sentenced to all 60 years.

[Tiny]

Feb 8, 2024 14:01:45 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Feb 8, 2024 13:28:40 GMT -5 Tiny said:

How will this ruling effect all the toddlers who shoot and kill themselves or others?   Will their parent(s)/guardian  be charged and possibly sent to prison or receive the death penalty?   

What about minors who commit suicide with a family (or their own) gun?  Will their parent(s) also be charged with a crime that's punishable with prison time (or maybe the death penalty)? 

I have always found the parents of toddlers or chldren who find family firearms in their home or in a vehicle that were not securely locked up to be responsible for anyone the toddlers or children injure or kill including themselves. There is no excuse, none at all, for firearms not to be tightly and securely locked up.

Overly dramatic about the death penalty, yes?

I didn't mean to be.  It's a state by state thing.   And I sometimes find it weird when it seems someone is on death row - for something that possibly other people in prison  have committed the same horrible crime but are not on death row (and may not even be in prison for life).    I will admit my "knowledge" here is mostly based on headlines.    That leads me to think some sensational set of circumstances could have a parent facing the death penalty for something their child has done.    

[thyme4change]

Feb 8, 2024 15:14:11 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Feb 8, 2024 14:01:45 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

I have always found the parents of toddlers or chldren who find family firearms in their home or in a vehicle that were not securely locked up to be responsible for anyone the toddlers or children injure or kill including themselves. There is no excuse, none at all, for firearms not to be tightly and securely locked up.

Overly dramatic about the death penalty, yes?

I didn't mean to be.  It's a state by state thing.   And I sometimes find it weird when it seems someone is on death row - for something that possibly other people in prison  have committed the same horrible crime but are not on death row (and may not even be in prison for life).    I will admit my "knowledge" here is mostly based on headlines.    That leads me to think some sensational set of circumstances could have a parent facing the death penalty for something their child has done.    

People should know the commonly used punishments for their state. Maybe only murder in states like Colorado or Maine (and the others that have outlawed capital punishment).

[Tennesseer]

Feb 8, 2024 15:14:11 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Feb 8, 2024 14:01:45 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

I have always found the parents of toddlers or chldren who find family firearms in their home or in a vehicle that were not securely locked up to be responsible for anyone the toddlers or children injure or kill including themselves. There is no excuse, none at all, for firearms not to be tightly and securely locked up.

Overly dramatic about the death penalty, yes?

I didn't mean to be.  It's a state by state thing.   And I sometimes find it weird when it seems someone is on death row - for something that possibly other people in prison  have committed the same horrible crime but are not on death row (and may not even be in prison for life).    I will admit my "knowledge" here is mostly based on headlines.    That leads me to think some sensational set of circumstances could have a parent facing the death penalty for something their child has done.    

Worst scenario I can see for an adult/parent not keeping their firearms safe and secured and their toddler/child somehow gets a hold of it and either shoots him/herself or someone else is probably involuntary manslaughter as in this Michigan case.

ETA: Now if a parent told a minor where they could find the family firearm and told to shoot to kill someeone out of malice, charges could be more severe than involuntary manslaughter. May be a murder charge of some sort. But I don't think death row material.

[Tennesseer]

Tiny : a good(bad) example about young kids and guns.  Just on our local news now, a mother was shot dead in her auto.  The mother's very young child found an unsecured gun in the car and shot his/her mother dead.

The state won't prosecute the young child but if the firearm belonged to someone ese in the family, they should be prosecuted.  If it belonged to the deceased mother, she has already received her punishment.

[Opti]

Feb 8, 2024 15:22:45 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Feb 8, 2024 15:14:11 GMT -5 Tiny said:

I didn't mean to be.  It's a state by state thing.   And I sometimes find it weird when it seems someone is on death row - for something that possibly other people in prison  have committed the same horrible crime but are not on death row (and may not even be in prison for life).    I will admit my "knowledge" here is mostly based on headlines.    That leads me to think some sensational set of circumstances could have a parent facing the death penalty for something their child has done.    

People should know the commonly used punishments for their state. Maybe only murder in states like Colorado or Maine (and the others that have outlawed capital punishment).

I thought that when some young person came to get money in a certain way to buy a gun. It was around the time I think NJ had a gun show. It would be wise to research penalties for gun crimes IMO before buying a gun for "protection". Most do not think on the consequences of such a choice nor the fact it will be more likely to be used for suicide or to kill a family member than for protection.

[Tiny]

Feb 8, 2024 19:09:42 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Tiny : a good(bad) example about young kids and guns.  Just on our local news now, a mother was shot dead in her auto.  The mother's very young child found an unsecured gun in the car and shot his/her mother dead.

The state won't prosecute the young child but if the firearm belonged to someone ese in the family, they should be prosecuted.  If it belonged to the deceased mother, she has already received her punishment.

I was thinking more of a young child killing, say a young friend who isn't related to them, with a gun owned by a family member. 
Or maybe worse a visiting young friend (not related) uses the family gun to kill the friend they were visiting.   


I realize that when all the people involved are related - it's often seen as not such a serious thing to be prosecuted.  But what happens when those involved in the gun violence aren't related (and maybe even don't spend a lot of time together)?   

I'm sure in the past these went to civil court rather than criminal court.   

i think the same thing (civil court) happens when a family dog mauls and kills an unrelated to the family kid that was visiting the house.  

I know I've read about these kind of tragedies -  where a child die either from gun violence or from being mauled by dogs.  And a child who didn't live in the house and wasn't related either died or pulled the trigger.  No one blames the child for the misfortune.  


Killing your own family members is more of a "they got what they deserved" kind of thing or "it's for the family to deal with" so it's ok to look the other way.    It's when it involves someone outside the family that it gets more complicated and people feel more entitled to "justice" for the death.    

[pulmonarymd]

I disagree. ALlowing a young child access to a gun is a crime. If someone dies as a result, that should be prosecuted. I do not care if people say "they suffered enough". They should be prosecute. Send a message. Law and Order conservatives should agree. We should be prosecuting crimes

[billisonboard]

Feb 9, 2024 17:52:29 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

I disagree. ALlowing a young child access to a gun is a crime. If someone dies as a result, that should be prosecuted. I do not care if people say "they suffered enough". They should be prosecute. Send a message. Law and Order conservatives should agree. We should be prosecuting crimes

And I think that community service educating others to the dangers of unsecured firearms can be an appropriate punishment for someone truly contrite.

[pulmonarymd]

Ok with that after some jail time. How much depends on how egregious their negligence was

[billisonboard]

Feb 9, 2024 18:49:00 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Ok with that after some jail time. How much depends on how egregious their negligence was

Yeah, "lock them up "is the American way:

The United States leads the world in total number of people incarcerated, with more than 2 million prisoners nationwide (per data released in October 2021 by World Prison Brief). This number is equivalent to roughly 25% of the world's total prison population and leads to an incarceration rate of 629 people per 100,000—the highest rate in the world. link

Not a supporter of the Prison–industrial complex. YMMV.

[pulmonarymd]

Well, that number includes many people locked up for nonviolent drug offenses. Let them out and put someone like this in jail. The charge would be at least depraved indifference, and someone is dead. I think that is deserving of jail time. Just like a drunk driver convicted of vehicular homicide

[billisonboard]

Feb 9, 2024 19:26:56 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Well, that number includes many people locked up for nonviolent drug offenses. Let them out and put someone like this in jail. The charge would be at least depraved indifference, and someone is dead. I think that is deserving of jail time. Just like a drunk driver convicted of vehicular homicide

Yes, I understand that people consider many things "deserving of jail time". Obviously one such thing are those nonviolent drugs offenses which you happen to not think deserving. I think a full reconsideration of why jail time is given would be worth doing. I think about the only time it should be given is to protect us from someone who poses a real threat.

[pulmonarymd]

I think that there are crimes that deserve jail time because of their severity, even if someone “didn’t mean it yo happen.” Negligence causing someone to die is more than a tragedy. It is criminal. It should be treated as such. Real remorse and change should also be rewarded with parole, early release, and restoratative justice. But to allow people to avoid consequences for their actions is wrong, IMHO

[NastyWoman]

Feb 9, 2024 17:52:29 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

I disagree. ALlowing a young child access to a gun is a crime. If someone dies as a result, that should be prosecuted. I do not care if people say "they suffered enough". They should be prosecute. Send a message. Law and Order conservatives should agree. We should be prosecuting crimes

Yea they should.  The problem with that is that you find the largest group of the" you have to pry my gun out of my cold dead hands" cult. So thought and prayers it is for them...

[billisonboard]

Feb 9, 2024 20:28:03 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

I think that there are crimes that deserve jail time because of their severity, even if someone “didn’t mean it yo happen.” Negligence causing someone to die is more than a tragedy. It is criminal. It should be treated as such. Real remorse and change should also be rewarded with parole, early release, and restoratative justice. But to allow people to avoid consequences for their actions is wrong, IMHO

I agree they shouldn't avoid consequences. I think we default to jail too often as that consequence.

[Spellbound454]

I think it might make people think twice about what they are exposing their minor children to
if they are the ones held accountable if something goes wrong

and if said children are showing signs of mental illness, get some help.

[Pink Cashmere]

As far as the OP, I have no issue with the parents being held accountable from what I’ve read about this case. 

My child’s school called me, concerned about something one of his teachers found that he’d written, and bright and early the very next morning, I was on the phone looking for help. Even if I hadn’t done it just because I love my child, it was my responsibility and my duty to address something of serious concern. 

I know that certain cultures introduce their children to firearms at early ages. But we aren’t the kind of people that go hunting for food, so I saw no reason to teach my children to handle and use firearms at young ages. I had one, but even though it would’ve been inconvenient to access in an emergency situation, it stayed locked in a safe. Then, at a certain point, I hid the keys to the safe, in a way that made it even more cumbersome for me to get to it quickly if I needed to. 

I was more willing to take the chance of running around like a mad woman getting the keys and unlocking the safe if there was an intruder in my home, than risk a child getting hold of it.

I would never have bought a gun for my child. I especially would not have given my children access to guns, let lone buying them their own, if they seemed to be having mental health issues. My children are adults now, and I still wouldn’t buy them a gun. To ME, that is too much responsibility for me to take on, knowing I can’t control another person’s actions, regardless of how much I trust my children and/or think they are responsible. 

I still have a firearm that technically belongs to my ex husband, who I’ve been divorced from for over 20 years. Last year I told DD to tell her Dad I wanted to put it back in his hands because I didn’t want to be responsible for it anymore. DD said that when she told him what I said, he laughed and said “she still has that thing”….. yes I do, and I don’t want to be responsible for it anymore. He told DD to tell me that he appreciated me trying to do the right thing and he would meet me somewhere for me to give it to him. We haven’t made that happen yet, but it’s on in my mind again now to do it asap. Until then, it is locked away, and I’m not even sure anymore that I know exactly where I hid the keys to that safe this time.

[tractor]

I did raise my kids in a culture of hunting/shooting on a regular basis. Guns were a factor in my home when they were growing up, and they still are. However, even though guns are nothing special in my house, they stay locked up in a safe. It's a parents responsibility to, you know, parent. Both boys are now grown men, have a healthy respect for firearms, and still enjoy using them.

I feel bad for what happened to these parents, but if they aren't held accountable for their actions, when will they be? They failed their child, and people died.

[Tennesseer]

James Crumbley, father of Ethan Crumbley, found guilty of involuntary manslaughter in son’s school shooting

PONTIAC, Mich. — A jury on Thursday convicted James Crumbley of involuntary manslaughter in connection with his teenage son’s deadly school shooting in 2021, in step with his wife, who was found guilty last month on the same charge.

The jury's decision after about 10 hours of deliberations caps a landmark case that for the first time in the U.S. held the parents of a mass school shooter criminally responsible. James and Jennifer Crumbley’s son, Ethan, who was 15 when he opened fire at Oxford High School in suburban Detroit, pleaded guilty as an adult and was sentenced in December to life in prison without the possibility of parole.

Rest of article here: James Crumbley, father of Ethan Crumbley, found guilty of involuntary manslaughter in son’s school shooting

[thyme4change]

If we hold owners of guns responsible for the crimes the gun is involved in, maybe responsibility for securing guns would increase.

**I don’t want to convict every gun owner whose gun is stolen of murder - but they get in some trouble if it was easy to steal.