US and Iran and terrorists

[tallguy]

Nov 12, 2023 16:35:11 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Nov 12, 2023 16:15:59 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Much of the GOP now supports Russia, apparently.

I heard this was all part of the plot to bring about the Biblical End of Times.   And the GOP is mostly White Evangelicals and their overall goal is to bring about the Biblical End of times... so there you are.   they are on a mission from God.   

If only theirs was as noble and selfless as that of "Joliet" Jake and Elwood....  

[tallguy]

Nov 12, 2023 16:54:11 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

Ok another descent into fantasy

Goodbye

Oh, don't be upset that most of us aren't short-sighted authoritarians.  On the other hand, "Don't let the door hit ya!"

[pulmonarymd]

Well, what else can you use to say Trump is better than Biden? The only thing Trump is better at is authoritarianism, might as well use that s a reason to support him. The only problem is that then you can’t appear to be reasonable to others

[Tiny]

So, which is the descent into fantasy?

The End Times thing? (yeah I was being silly - sort of.... )

Or the idea that America isn't some All Powerful World Power that can make other countries do our bidding just by "telling them what to do"?

[djAdvocate]

Nov 12, 2023 16:31:40 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Just throwing this out there:


China population: 1.4 Billion
India Population: 1.4 Billion

United States Population 331.9 Million.


I get that it's hard to conceptualize a million or a billion of something so:

1 million seconds equals 11.57 DAYS
1 billion seconds equals 115.75 DAYS


Does anyone really think China and India are nations of subsistance farmers who need the USA?

America alone cannot bend India or China to it's will. It needs the cooperation of other countries.

without running the numbers, 1B = 1000x1M, not 10x.  so one of those numbers is wrong.

[djAdvocate]

Nov 12, 2023 17:26:24 GMT -5 pulmonarymd said:

Well, what else can you use to say Trump is better than Biden? The only thing Trump is better at is authoritarianism, might as well use that s a reason to support him. The only problem is that then you can’t appear to be reasonable to others

he is better at lying.  he lies about 3x as often as Joe does, and his lies have heft to them- undermining democracy, free thought, the press, the rule of law, comity, race relations, you name it.  he is the bestest liar that ever lied a lie.

[djAdvocate]

Nov 12, 2023 15:33:04 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Nov 12, 2023 14:57:18 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

the survey gets even more interesting on page 3.
in terms of leadership, 11 out of 15 rated Trump the worst.
only two rated Biden the best.  but his numbers were in some cases SIX TIMES higher than Trumps.

Almost difficult to imagine that the SMALLEST increase from Trump in 2020 to Biden in 2021 was 48 points.  It was 68 in Germany and Italy.  Then again, it IS Trump.

Oh, and it was 11 out of 14, or 15 out of 22, that had Trump the lowest-ever.  

i didn't count the second (upper) list.  but i will take your word for it that it was 14.

thanks for your interest in the survey.  it is a good one, right?  

do you think MOST Americans care about this stuff?  they used to.

[tallguy]

Nov 12, 2023 23:25:41 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Nov 12, 2023 15:33:04 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Almost difficult to imagine that the SMALLEST increase from Trump in 2020 to Biden in 2021 was 48 points.  It was 68 in Germany and Italy.  Then again, it IS Trump.

Oh, and it was 11 out of 14, or 15 out of 22, that had Trump the lowest-ever.  

i didn't count the second (upper) list.  but i will take your word for it that it was 14.

thanks for your interest in the survey.  it is a good one, right?  

do you think MOST Americans care about this stuff?  they used to.

They took Australia out for that one, since they had only polled them in 2023.  No way to calculate the change from 2022.

Yes, it is a good one.  And no, I doubt most people care.  Too polarized to really examine things, much less try to interpret them.  And 30% will ignore anything that doesn't come from right-wing 'Murrica.

[djAdvocate]

Nov 13, 2023 0:19:33 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Nov 12, 2023 23:25:41 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i didn't count the second (upper) list.  but i will take your word for it that it was 14.

thanks for your interest in the survey.  it is a good one, right?  

do you think MOST Americans care about this stuff?  they used to.

They took Australia out for that one, since they had only polled them in 2023.  No way to calculate the change from 2022.

Yes, it is a good one.  And no, I doubt most people care.  Too polarized to really examine things, much less try to interpret them.  And 30% will ignore anything that doesn't come from right-wing 'Murrica.

i hear a lot of people say that they don't care what anyone else thinks of us.  never mind how self absorbed and cynical that is in terms of human relations.  i KNOW that this attitude is far more widespread on the right.  i am just wondering if YOU think it goes beyond that?

for the record, i remember reading somewhere that something like 60% of Americans (maybe more) DO care about foreign opinion of us.  they WANT the world to like and respect us (not because we have nukes and are not afraid to use them, but because we provide an example of what freedom and liberty look like to about 100 nations that would literally die to have it).  but that was quite a while back.  certainly before Trump.

do YOU think that this has shifted, or is that sense of caring about how we look in the world still there?

[tallguy]

Nov 13, 2023 1:25:42 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Nov 13, 2023 0:19:33 GMT -5 tallguy said:

They took Australia out for that one, since they had only polled them in 2023.  No way to calculate the change from 2022.

Yes, it is a good one.  And no, I doubt most people care.  Too polarized to really examine things, much less try to interpret them.  And 30% will ignore anything that doesn't come from right-wing 'Murrica.

i hear a lot of people say that they don't care what anyone else thinks of us.  never mind how self absorbed and cynical that is in terms of human relations.  i KNOW that this attitude is far more widespread on the right.  i am just wondering if YOU think it goes beyond that?

for the record, i remember reading somewhere that something like 60% of Americans (maybe more) DO care about foreign opinion of us.  they WANT the world to like and respect us (not because we have nukes and are not afraid to use them, but because we provide an example of what freedom and liberty look like to about 100 nations that would literally die to have it).  but that was quite a while back.  certainly before Trump.

do YOU think that this has shifted, or is that sense of caring about how we look in the world still there?

I think it is FAR more likely to be true among those who see the world as inclusive, meaning that we are all in this together.  It is certainly not true about the "America First" crowd.  It is almost but not quite as simple as liberals and moderates who look outside themselves vs. (today's) conservatives who look mostly within themselves.  For me it would not be about wanting to be liked but about granting the same rights to others I would demand for myself.  How does one live otherwise? 
Think of it as those who would join the United Federation of Planets vs. those who would be happy in, say, the Dominion.  

[Tiny]

Nov 12, 2023 23:18:32 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Nov 12, 2023 16:31:40 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Just throwing this out there:


China population: 1.4 Billion
India Population: 1.4 Billion

United States Population 331.9 Million.


I get that it's hard to conceptualize a million or a billion of something so:

1 million seconds equals 11.57 DAYS
1 billion seconds equals 115.75 DAYS


Does anyone really think China and India are nations of subsistance farmers who need the USA?

America alone cannot bend India or China to it's will. It needs the cooperation of other countries.

without running the numbers, 1B = 1000x1M, not 10x.  so one of those numbers is wrong.

Thanks DJ.  I updated my post.  1 billion seconds equals 31.96 YEARS 

I am math challenged.  I should have rechecked the answers I got to the multiplication work before posting.     I made my HS algebra teacher cry.  I consistently failed or nearly failed tests because as I was "doing the work" I'd mess up a "simple calculation" and would arrive at the wrong answer.   I knew the steps to take but I'd inevitably get the wrong answer to an addition/subtraction or multiplication/division part of the work and that would result in the wrong final answer.        (the teacher cried because I was one of 3 kids in the class who did all the "right steps" to solve their tricky Extra Credit question.  I did NOT arrive at the right answer though.  The other two guys got the right final answer.  

My friends tried to tutor me (used math in Chemistry 101 and in an Astronomy course) - but I could consistently do a calculation and come up with different final results every time for the same problem - even though I applied all the right rules/steps in the right order.      I love being able to program a computer to do the work - just plug in the numbers and it gets all the calculations correct.  

[djAdvocate]

Nov 13, 2023 12:10:37 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Nov 12, 2023 23:18:32 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

without running the numbers, 1B = 1000x1M, not 10x.  so one of those numbers is wrong.

Thanks DJ.  I updated my post.  1 billion seconds equals 31.96 YEARS 

I am math challenged.  I should have rechecked the answers I got to the multiplication work before posting.     I made my HS algebra teacher cry.  I consistently failed or nearly failed tests because as I was "doing the work" I'd mess up a "simple calculation" and would arrive at the wrong answer.   I knew the steps to take but I'd inevitably get the wrong answer to an addition/subtraction or multiplication/division part of the work and that would result in the wrong final answer.        (the teacher cried because I was one of 3 kids in the class who did all the "right steps" to solve their tricky Extra Credit question.  I did NOT arrive at the right answer though.  The other two guys got the right final answer.  

My friends tried to tutor me (used math in Chemistry 101 and in an Astronomy course) - but I could consistently do a calculation and come up with different final results every time for the same problem - even though I applied all the right rules/steps in the right order.      I love being able to program a computer to do the work - just plug in the numbers and it gets all the calculations correct.  

no problem.  i am super mathy.  i am glad you weren't insulted.

[djAdvocate]

Nov 13, 2023 9:30:10 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Nov 13, 2023 1:25:42 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i hear a lot of people say that they don't care what anyone else thinks of us.  never mind how self absorbed and cynical that is in terms of human relations.  i KNOW that this attitude is far more widespread on the right.  i am just wondering if YOU think it goes beyond that?

for the record, i remember reading somewhere that something like 60% of Americans (maybe more) DO care about foreign opinion of us.  they WANT the world to like and respect us (not because we have nukes and are not afraid to use them, but because we provide an example of what freedom and liberty look like to about 100 nations that would literally die to have it).  but that was quite a while back.  certainly before Trump.

do YOU think that this has shifted, or is that sense of caring about how we look in the world still there?

I think it is FAR more likely to be true among those who see the world as inclusive, meaning that we are all in this together.  It is certainly not true about the "America First" crowd.  It is almost but not quite as simple as liberals and moderates who look outside themselves vs. (today's) conservatives who look mostly within themselves.  For me it would not be about wanting to be liked but about granting the same rights to others I would demand for myself.  How does one live otherwise? 
Think of it as those who would join the United Federation of Planets vs. those who would be happy in, say, the Dominion.  

yeah, we are a lot alike.

i heard an interview with a Trump supporter who was absolutely certain that he won in 2020.  her reasoning is that she doesn't know anyone who voted for Biden, so how could he have won?

well, you don't know anyone from FUCKING MONGOLIA either, but does that mean that Mongolians don't exist?  you don't know anyone who has had AIDS, but does that mean that AIDS doesn't exist?

i would call this attitude naiive but it is way more bizarre than that.  it requires a special sort of incredibly insular and intentional ignorance to get to the point where you can't even admit that people YOU DON'T KNOW voted for Biden.

oh, and just as a matter of fact?  i bet she DID know people that voted for Biden.  but they would never admit it to her, because she would probably come completely off the rails if they did.

[tallguy]

Nov 13, 2023 13:24:11 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Nov 13, 2023 9:30:10 GMT -5 tallguy said:

I think it is FAR more likely to be true among those who see the world as inclusive, meaning that we are all in this together.  It is certainly not true about the "America First" crowd.  It is almost but not quite as simple as liberals and moderates who look outside themselves vs. (today's) conservatives who look mostly within themselves.  For me it would not be about wanting to be liked but about granting the same rights to others I would demand for myself.  How does one live otherwise? 
Think of it as those who would join the United Federation of Planets vs. those who would be happy in, say, the Dominion.  

yeah, we are a lot alike.

i heard an interview with a Trump supporter who was absolutely certain that he won in 2020.  her reasoning is that she doesn't know anyone who voted for Biden, so how could he have won?

well, you don't know anyone from FUCKING MONGOLIA either, but does that mean that Mongolians don't exist?  you don't know anyone who has had AIDS, but does that mean that AIDS doesn't exist?

i would call this attitude naiive but it is way more bizarre than that.  it requires a special sort of incredibly insular and intentional ignorance to get to the point where you can't even admit that people YOU DON'T KNOW voted for Biden.

oh, and just as a matter of fact?  i bet she DID know people that voted for Biden.  but they would never admit it to her, because she would probably come completely off the rails if they did.

Better example for someone who thinks like that woman:

"Do you believe that America is the greatest country in the world?"
"Yes, of course."
"What country is the greatest threat to us?"
"I don't know.  China?"
"Do you know anybody in China?"
"What?"
"Do you know anybody living in China today?"
"No, of course not."
"Then how can they be a threat to us?  If you cannot accept the idea that Biden voters exist in large numbers because you don't know any, how can you accept the idea that evil Chinese exist in large numbers if you don't know any?  What's the difference?"

[thyme4change]

I have heard many conservatives rally behind thoughts of isolationism and pulling out of other countries to let them figure it out themselves.

Then I hear conservatives who complain about other countries doing shit they don’t like and the US not doing enough to stop it.

Are they the same conservatives? Or are there two schools of contradictory thought in the GOP (on this topic)?

[Tiny]

Nov 13, 2023 13:19:45 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Nov 13, 2023 12:10:37 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Thanks DJ.  I updated my post.  1 billion seconds equals 31.96 YEARS 

I am math challenged.  I should have rechecked the answers I got to the multiplication work before posting.     I made my HS algebra teacher cry.  I consistently failed or nearly failed tests because as I was "doing the work" I'd mess up a "simple calculation" and would arrive at the wrong answer.   I knew the steps to take but I'd inevitably get the wrong answer to an addition/subtraction or multiplication/division part of the work and that would result in the wrong final answer.        (the teacher cried because I was one of 3 kids in the class who did all the "right steps" to solve their tricky Extra Credit question.  I did NOT arrive at the right answer though.  The other two guys got the right final answer.  

My friends tried to tutor me (used math in Chemistry 101 and in an Astronomy course) - but I could consistently do a calculation and come up with different final results every time for the same problem - even though I applied all the right rules/steps in the right order.      I love being able to program a computer to do the work - just plug in the numbers and it gets all the calculations correct.  

no problem.  i am super mathy.  i am glad you weren't insulted.

No insult taken.   your response was more polite pointing out where I messed up than I usually get in real life. 
I mess up a math a lot in real life.      

[tallguy]

Nov 13, 2023 14:08:13 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

I have heard many conservatives rally behind thoughts of isolationism and pulling out of other countries to let them figure it out themselves.

Then I hear conservatives who complain about other countries doing shit they don’t like and the US not doing enough to stop it.

Are they the same conservatives? Or are there two schools of contradictory thought in the GOP (on this topic)?

Generally, conservative thought expands to fill the space that is available to try and blame liberals for whatever it is.

[Tiny]

Nov 13, 2023 13:57:30 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Nov 13, 2023 13:24:11 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

yeah, we are a lot alike.

i heard an interview with a Trump supporter who was absolutely certain that he won in 2020.  her reasoning is that she doesn't know anyone who voted for Biden, so how could he have won?

well, you don't know anyone from FUCKING MONGOLIA either, but does that mean that Mongolians don't exist?  you don't know anyone who has had AIDS, but does that mean that AIDS doesn't exist?

i would call this attitude naiive but it is way more bizarre than that.  it requires a special sort of incredibly insular and intentional ignorance to get to the point where you can't even admit that people YOU DON'T KNOW voted for Biden.

oh, and just as a matter of fact?  i bet she DID know people that voted for Biden.  but they would never admit it to her, because she would probably come completely off the rails if they did.

Better example for someone who thinks like that woman:

"Do you believe that America is the greatest country in the world?"
"Yes, of course."
"What country is the greatest threat to us?"
"I don't know.  China?"
"Do you know anybody in China?"
"What?"
"Do you know anybody living in China today?"
"No, of course not."
"Then how can they be a threat to us?  If you cannot accept the idea that Biden voters exist in large numbers because you don't know any, how can you accept the idea that evil Chinese exist in large numbers if you don't know any?  What's the difference?"

::sigh::  Don't discount that when people are use to accepting arguments based on Logical Fallacies as true or right,  they are often very reluctant to accept conclusions based on logical arguments. 

I think it comes down to a person not knowing how (haven't learned how)  to cope with being wrong about something.  Especially when they realize  that the logical fallacy(s) that made a thing "true or right"  for them also makes a whole bunch of other things (maybe unrelated) they think are "true or right" also false or wrong.   

[djAdvocate]

the difference of course is that nobody is constantly lying to them about China.