Why don't voters like Joe Biden?

[dondubble]

Sept 15, 2023 21:22:32 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Sept 15, 2023 17:50:00 GMT -5 scgal said:

For the liberal in me I admit there is racism and would be stupid to say there isn't, but at the same time as much as I dislike racism I also see it is someone's right to be racis. I also believe systemic racism is a thing of the past. People like to hold on to these false narratives for seperation, or to play the victim card.

Is it ever not right for someone to be racist in your opinion and can you provide an example?

It appears to me she has negated the validity of her opinions by believing that systemic racism is a thing of the past. So yeah, they finally took the Confederate glad down at your Capitol. Is that proof?

[djAdvocate]

Sept 15, 2023 17:06:44 GMT -5 hurley1980 said:

Sept 14, 2023 12:41:25 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Only about 30% of the country believes the crap they spew. They know they can't win in a fair election so they're trying to suppress votes for the demographics that vote blue such as POC, young people, etc. At the same time they drum up boogie men for the older uneducated white people to think that they are protecting them from. Their target demographic is dying off, so they're basically trying anything they can to hang onto what little power they have left.

I don't actually think this is true.  There are plenty of younger, straight white people that are YUGE trump supporters.  You could see it from J6.  

i actually didn't see it on J6.  i saw 10000 people there, 90% of which were boomers or X'ers.  most of them didn't break into the capitol, which means that there are a disproportionate number of younger folks that did.  if that is what you mean, then yes.  there are some crazy, stupid kids that are MAGA.  but i don't think they are even a plurality, let alone a majority, and half of the ones on J6 are now convicted felons.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 15, 2023 17:20:49 GMT -5 scgal said:

Sept 13, 2023 10:06:17 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Not sure what "deeper level" you are looking for here. You haven't responded to my post #120 which addressed the logistics of your proposal. Please let me know what "level"you are looking for and I will discuss it there.

I didn't reply because the post wasn't about further exploring that issue rather than showing a off the wall (no pun intended) possibility and that maybe if the wall is not the answer and the current way of doing things are not the answer then what is. I actually thought you, and DJ would have understood where I was going with it. The rest no so much too far down the left field

i understood it.  i just fundamentally disagree that immigration is easy.  the average wait time for the proper channels is 10 years, i think.  most asylum seeker get deported.  

if immigration through proper channels were made easier, most immigrants would take it.
my opinion, of course.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 15, 2023 17:40:21 GMT -5 scgal said:

Sept 13, 2023 8:49:06 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Things racists say. "I have black friends" "I'm color blind". I don't recall you ever saying anything about protecting the US/Canada border. I also don't see anywhere where you suggest making immigration more accessible/easier for anyone. You sure are quick to suggest shooting the brown people though regardless of immigration status.

Unless you are native American, which I'm guessing you're not, guess what. Your ancestors immigrated here. This country belonged to indigenous people before the white people came and stole it from them. If anything, we should be wandering around picking off the white people for stealing land from indigenous people.

Another dog whistle. How many Canadians are here illegally? 

border crossings from Canada are up tenfold this year:


www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/border-crossings-canada-new-york-vermont-nh-up-tenfold-rcna75087

[djAdvocate]

Sept 15, 2023 18:48:58 GMT -5 Pink Cashmere said:

In regards to the conversation about “not seeing color”, I am not as articulate as other posters here, so please bear with me. I think it’s only natural to notice what a person looks like. I am a Black woman, and maybe it’s because I have been constantly reminded of my color my whole life, but I do notice whether people are white, black, Asian, or any other things they could be. Me noticing that does not determine how I treat them, but I would be lying if I said I don’t see the differences in appearances. Because that doesn’t have anything to do with how I treat whoever, I don’t see that as being much different from the other things my brain automatically registers about the people I run into or interact with, like how they are dressed, how they act, and whatever else my unconscious identifies, that gives me clues about people. 

I feel like what I do with all that information my brain registers about a person, is more important than what I notice about their appearance. As long as neither poses a threat to me, I treat the person that appears to be homeless, with the same courtesy and respect I would treat a person that is well dressed and appears to be a successful business person. But with either one, I would be able to say after seeing them or interacting them, what race or ethnicity they appeared to be. 

That means that I am most definitely not color blind. And I don’t think that’s a bad thing. To me, noticing race or whatever, is not different than noticing what clothes a person is wearing. It’s just part of a physical description. Nothing more, and nothing less, unless somebody makes it be something more by using that person’s skin color or whatever, to judge how that person should be treated.

I’m not sure if I worded everything well enough to be properly understood, but that’s just my opinion on the subject. 

you can change a lot of things about you, Pink.  you can change your dress.  you can change your manner.  with some effort, you can change your weight and your build.  you can change your hair color, your education, and your job.  you can even change your gender.

but there is one thing you can't change.  your race.  and that distinguishing feature of you can be used for or against you.  what most white folks don't get is that human beings are discrimination machines.  we literally are born with it, and carry it with us until we die.  and we are generally trying to use that to our advantage, as well.  if you couple those TWO things with the history of race relations, you end up here- and there is just no other way of looking at it.

much more can and will be said about it, but denying simple truths is certainly not helping the discussion.

[scgal]

Sept 15, 2023 21:22:32 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Sept 15, 2023 17:50:00 GMT -5 scgal said:

For the liberal in me I admit there is racism and would be stupid to say there isn't, but at the same time as much as I dislike racism I also see it is someone's right to be racis. I also believe systemic racism is a thing of the past. People like to hold on to these false narratives for seperation, or to play the victim card.

Is it ever not right for someone to be racist in your opinion and can you provide an example?

No there isn't, but they do have a right to like or dislike anyone for any reason. You know freedom and all. You cannot tell someone to like or dislike someone, you cannot mandate it all you can do is make sure they are not discriminated against. My first understanding of this I was quite young there was a KKK assembly in my home town in NY. My mother was upset and on edge I asked her what was the matter she said nothing good comes of this. I said then why are they allowed to do it she said it is their right. Till this point all I knew was up until this point what is good is allowed what is bad is not. Not something is bad but is their right to do it (believe that way). 

[scgal]

Sept 16, 2023 2:34:26 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Sept 15, 2023 17:40:21 GMT -5 scgal said:

Another dog whistle. How many Canadians are here illegally? 

border crossings from Canada are up tenfold this year:


www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/border-crossings-canada-new-york-vermont-nh-up-tenfold-rcna75087

the devil is in the details in the story. The amount of people and the fact that it is other migrants. Hell Canadians won't come here illegally they live in their liberal utopia

[scgal]

Sept 15, 2023 18:48:58 GMT -5 Pink Cashmere said:

In regards to the conversation about “not seeing color”, I am not as articulate as other posters here, so please bear with me. I think it’s only natural to notice what a person looks like. I am a Black woman, and maybe it’s because I have been constantly reminded of my color my whole life, but I do notice whether people are white, black, Asian, or any other things they could be. Me noticing that does not determine how I treat them, but I would be lying if I said I don’t see the differences in appearances. Because that doesn’t have anything to do with how I treat whoever, I don’t see that as being much different from the other things my brain automatically registers about the people I run into or interact with, like how they are dressed, how they act, and whatever else my unconscious identifies, that gives me clues about people. 

I feel like what I do with all that information my brain registers about a person, is more important than what I notice about their appearance. As long as neither poses a threat to me, I treat the person that appears to be homeless, with the same courtesy and respect I would treat a person that is well dressed and appears to be a successful business person. But with either one, I would be able to say after seeing them or interacting them, what race or ethnicity they appeared to be. 

That means that I am most definitely not color blind. And I don’t think that’s a bad thing. To me, noticing race or whatever, is not different than noticing what clothes a person is wearing. It’s just part of a physical description. Nothing more, and nothing less, unless somebody makes it be something more by using that person’s skin color or whatever, to judge how that person should be treated.

I’m not sure if I worded everything well enough to be properly understood, but that’s just my opinion on the subject. 

Very well written 

[scgal]

Sept 15, 2023 17:06:44 GMT -5 hurley1980 said:

Sept 14, 2023 12:41:25 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Only about 30% of the country believes the crap they spew. They know they can't win in a fair election so they're trying to suppress votes for the demographics that vote blue such as POC, young people, etc. At the same time they drum up boogie men for the older uneducated white people to think that they are protecting them from. Their target demographic is dying off, so they're basically trying anything they can to hang onto what little power they have left.

I don't actually think this is true.  There are plenty of younger, straight white people that are YUGE trump supporters.  You could see it from J6. Political beliefs of uneducated people are very similar to racial or economic beliefs...it is passed down from older generations telling the younger ones to be mad about "this or that" and spewing the conspiracy theories that their kids and grandkids will believe because "why would Grandpa lie to me?!?!" 

So we end up with red rural counties where 3+ generations have been voting GOP because that's what they have been told is best for them. Just like they are told the brown folks will take their jobs, and the black folks will get them hooked on drugs. 

I've seen it first hand with people I know in very red Northern California...a lot of my HS classmates to be exact! They are in their late 30s/early 40s and have no clue at all about the complexities of politics at any level, but grandad is a lifelong republican who has taught them exactly how to think. 

You and I are often on the opposite ends of issues probably being female is about the only thing we have in common, but I do agree with you here. I live in a very very red state so my perception is skewed. The younger people here are all Trump supporters I think mainly because of older relatives, some could be redneck country. As you have stated from a very liberal state it's there too. I am not convinced it's all because of some theory that Trump spews hate and that is what they are drawn to. More like there is a growing number of people who are tired of current politics and does want America to be put first. 

[djAdvocate]

Sept 16, 2023 5:03:04 GMT -5 scgal said:

Sept 15, 2023 21:22:32 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Is it ever not right for someone to be racist in your opinion and can you provide an example?

No there isn't, but they do have a right to like or dislike anyone for any reason. You know freedom and all. You cannot tell someone to like or dislike someone, you cannot mandate it all you can do is make sure they are not discriminated against. My first understanding of this I was quite young there was a KKK assembly in my home town in NY. My mother was upset and on edge I asked her what was the matter she said nothing good comes of this. I said then why are they allowed to do it she said it is their right. Till this point all I knew was up until this point what is good is allowed what is bad is not. Not something is bad but is their right to do it (believe that way). 

excellent point.  but the right to be a racist is limited to speech, not action.  if you act in a racist way, and it impacts the life, liberty and property of non-consenting others, that is against the law.

OR SHOULD BE.

[djAdvocate]

Sept 16, 2023 5:12:50 GMT -5 scgal said:

Sept 16, 2023 2:34:26 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

border crossings from Canada are up tenfold this year:


www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/border-crossings-canada-new-york-vermont-nh-up-tenfold-rcna75087

the devil is in the details in the story. The amount of people and the fact that it is other migrants. Hell Canadians won't come here illegally they live in their liberal utopia

i like your sense of humor.  

but of course you know that the majority of "illegals" are not Mexicans, right?

[scgal]

Sept 16, 2023 6:53:21 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Sept 16, 2023 5:12:50 GMT -5 scgal said:

the devil is in the details in the story. The amount of people and the fact that it is other migrants. Hell Canadians won't come here illegally they live in their liberal utopia

i like your sense of humor.  

but of course you know that the majority of "illegals" are not Mexicans, right?

are you referring to the article or in total to the US. The article says from Mexico. I suspect there are alot of "illegals" from expired visas. Now the expired visas at least they were here legally and worked with in the system you would think with computers this should be a fairly easy fix. The real problem is illegal entry that is not going to be an easy solution. We now have the politically correct term of undocumented we don't even want to call it for what it is. Illegals they are trespassing no sugar coating around this they are illegal and until they address this seriously it will not go away and no I don't mean shooting them.

[Opti]

Sept 16, 2023 7:20:19 GMT -5 scgal said:

Sept 16, 2023 6:53:21 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i like your sense of humor.  

but of course you know that the majority of "illegals" are not Mexicans, right?

are you referring to the article or in total to the US. The article says from Mexico. I suspect there are alot of "illegals" from expired visas. Now the expired visas at least they were here legally and worked with in the system you would think with computers this should be a fairly easy fix. The real problem is illegal entry that is not going to be an easy solution. We now have the politically correct term of undocumented we don't even want to call it for what it is. Illegals they are trespassing no sugar coating around this they are illegal and until they address this seriously it will not go away and no I don't mean shooting them.

Undocumented are those that legally were admitted to the US through the border versus those that were processed and deported.
Unlike you I don't think the expired Visa issue is an easy fix as otherwise it would have already happened. Many are probably work Visas and if the person changes employers and places to live they might not be easy to track. 

[Opti]

Sept 16, 2023 5:25:32 GMT -5 scgal said:

Sept 15, 2023 17:06:44 GMT -5 hurley1980 said:

I don't actually think this is true.  There are plenty of younger, straight white people that are YUGE trump supporters.  You could see it from J6. Political beliefs of uneducated people are very similar to racial or economic beliefs...it is passed down from older generations telling the younger ones to be mad about "this or that" and spewing the conspiracy theories that their kids and grandkids will believe because "why would Grandpa lie to me?!?!" 

So we end up with red rural counties where 3+ generations have been voting GOP because that's what they have been told is best for them. Just like they are told the brown folks will take their jobs, and the black folks will get them hooked on drugs. 

I've seen it first hand with people I know in very red Northern California...a lot of my HS classmates to be exact! They are in their late 30s/early 40s and have no clue at all about the complexities of politics at any level, but grandad is a lifelong republican who has taught them exactly how to think. 

You and I are often on the opposite ends of issues probably being female is about the only thing we have in common, but I do agree with you here. I live in a very very red state so my perception is skewed. The younger people here are all Trump supporters I think mainly because of older relatives, some could be redneck country. As you have stated from a very liberal state it's there too. I am not convinced it's all because of some theory that Trump spews hate and that is what they are drawn to. More like there is a growing number of people who are tired of current politics and does want America to be put first. 

But Trump does not put America first. In his first week of office, he happily exposed one or more of our spy assets to Russia. He let Erdogan overrun an area where the Americans still had military equipment. He did not get us out of Afghanistan when he could have and by setting a late date which set up Biden and the military to do it even later with a bad outcome.

He's constantly sucking up to Putin and told him, heck please take Crimea, ID care. Which has led to this invasion by Putin, higher gas prices, higher wheat prices, etc. He's close to putting Russia first over America. Russia does not want to be our friend; they want to weaken us, and Trump is helping them so much they must be besides themselves in delight.

[andi9899]

Sept 15, 2023 17:35:56 GMT -5 scgal said:

Sept 13, 2023 10:26:35 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Yet you still don't address most of what I said. You are literally the descent of an immigrant. So then you shouldn't be here then by your logic. This country was stolen from indigenous people by white people, so really it's the white people that are the problem. You can refuse to look past the nose on your face, but it doesn't change history.

Also, why are you not in an uproar about the Canadian border? Is is because Canadians are usually white people?

Like it or not, POC literally are victims of white people. Refusing to see that makes you part of the problem. It means you're either too stupid to see facts, or you refuse to see them in order to further to perpetuate your hate and push it onto others.

We are immigrants. Mostly German and Italian. 

POC are "literally" victims of white people. You don't think white people are victims of POC? I love to see those numbers

If you're immigrants then we're going to have to shoot you. Sorry, your rules, not mine.

And yes, POC are literally victims of white people. Don't believe me? Ask Emmitt Till or George Floyd or Traveon Martin or Brianna Taylor. The list goes on and on. And those are just the ones that make the news.

Let me ask you something. When you go to a store, do the employees follow you around waiting for you to steal something? Do they ask you if you speak English before saying whatever they have to say to you? Has anyone ever walked up to you and told you to go back to where you came from even though you were born in America? Have police ever stopped you for being brown where the white people live? All of the above has happened to me based solely on what I look like. Never mind the fact that I'm an American citizen whose parents, grandparents, etc were all born in America. I make 6 figures and am highly respected in my field and have never been in any legal trouble in my life. Because I'm brown and have tattoos I'm immediately presumed to be an illegal gang banger and dangerous. This is just the cliff notes of what it is like to be a POC in America. Get a clue.

[andi9899]

Sept 15, 2023 17:40:21 GMT -5 scgal said:

Sept 13, 2023 8:49:06 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Things racists say. "I have black friends" "I'm color blind". I don't recall you ever saying anything about protecting the US/Canada border. I also don't see anywhere where you suggest making immigration more accessible/easier for anyone. You sure are quick to suggest shooting the brown people though regardless of immigration status.

Unless you are native American, which I'm guessing you're not, guess what. Your ancestors immigrated here. This country belonged to indigenous people before the white people came and stole it from them. If anything, we should be wandering around picking off the white people for stealing land from indigenous people.

Another dog whistle. How many Canadians are here illegally? 

How is actual American history a dog whistle? Also, you literally just proved my point. "White Canadians can't possibly be illegal because they're white." Again, racist much?

[andi9899]

Sept 15, 2023 17:50:00 GMT -5 scgal said:

Sept 13, 2023 11:08:13 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Please stop with the "color blind" stuff.

Anti-racism Resources

Colorblindness is the racial ideology that posits the best way to end discrimination is by treating individuals as equally as possible, without regard to race, culture, or ethnicity (Williams, 2011).

At face value, this belief appears to not only amounts to a dismissal of the lived experiences of people of color, but also suggests that racism does not exist so long as one ignores it.
However, within the context of enduring structural and systematic racism, racial colorblindness serves as a device to disengage from conversations of race and racism entirely. (Asare, 2017)

Why Colorblindness Acts to Perpetuates Racism (Camp Kupugani, 2020)

The word "blind" means not being able to see. This means that in terms of racial colorblindness, a person is also choosing to not just see race or skin color, but also the racial disparities, inequities, history of violence and current trauma perpetuated within a racist society

BIPOC (Black, Indigenous, and People of Color) will explain that race and ethnicity does matter, as it affects opportunities, perceptions, income, and so much more. Race is not something that BIOPOC person can not remove their skin color and racial identity. It is something the see and live with every day.

When race-related problems arise, colorblindness tends to individualize conflicts and shortcomings, rather than examining the larger picture with cultural differences, stereotypes, and values placed into context.

A colorblind approach allows us to deny uncomfortable cultural differences.

In a colorblind society, White people, who are unlikely to experience disadvantages due to race, can effectively ignore racism in American life, justify the current social order, and feel more comfortable with their relatively privileged standing in society.

What Does Color Racial Colorblindness Look Like?

I don't see color. I just see people.
We're all just people.
I don't care if you're black, white, green, or purple-polka-dotted!
#AllLivesMatter

Anti-racism Resources

Also: Colorblind Ideology Is a Form of Racism

For the liberal in me I admit there is racism and would be stupid to say there isn't, but at the same time as much as I dislike racism I also see it is someone's right to be racis. I also believe systemic racism is a thing of the past. People like to hold on to these false narratives for seperation, or to play the victim card.

If you think systematic racism is a thing of the past, you are completely delusional.

[andi9899]

Sept 16, 2023 5:25:32 GMT -5 scgal said:

Sept 15, 2023 17:06:44 GMT -5 hurley1980 said:

I don't actually think this is true.  There are plenty of younger, straight white people that are YUGE trump supporters.  You could see it from J6. Political beliefs of uneducated people are very similar to racial or economic beliefs...it is passed down from older generations telling the younger ones to be mad about "this or that" and spewing the conspiracy theories that their kids and grandkids will believe because "why would Grandpa lie to me?!?!" 

So we end up with red rural counties where 3+ generations have been voting GOP because that's what they have been told is best for them. Just like they are told the brown folks will take their jobs, and the black folks will get them hooked on drugs. 

I've seen it first hand with people I know in very red Northern California...a lot of my HS classmates to be exact! They are in their late 30s/early 40s and have no clue at all about the complexities of politics at any level, but grandad is a lifelong republican who has taught them exactly how to think. 

You and I are often on the opposite ends of issues probably being female is about the only thing we have in common, but I do agree with you here. I live in a very very red state so my perception is skewed. The younger people here are all Trump supporters I think mainly because of older relatives, some could be redneck country. As you have stated from a very liberal state it's there too. I am not convinced it's all because of some theory that Trump spews hate and that is what they are drawn to. More like there is a growing number of people who are tired of current politics and does want America to be put first. 

I live in a ruby red state and young people here can't stand Trump or any other republican. The only ones that support him are boomers or older such as yourself.

[Tennesseer]

Sept 16, 2023 5:03:04 GMT -5 scgal said:

Sept 15, 2023 21:22:32 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Is it ever not right for someone to be racist in your opinion and can you provide an example?

No there isn't, but they do have a right to like or dislike anyone for any reason. You know freedom and all. You cannot tell someone to like or dislike someone, you cannot mandate it all you can do is make sure they are not discriminated against. My first understanding of this I was quite young there was a KKK assembly in my home town in NY. My mother was upset and on edge I asked her what was the matter she said nothing good comes of this. I said then why are they allowed to do it she said it is their right. Till this point all I knew was up until this point what is good is allowed what is bad is not. Not something is bad but is their right to do it (believe that way). 

Do you favor or oppose hate crime sentencing enhancements when bigots commit crimes (and found guilty by a jury of their peers) on those they hate because of their race, national origin, religion, sexual identity, skin color, etc.?

Or are the sentencing enhancements not necessary.

[billisonboard]

I went looking for numbers:

Voters in the youngest adult generations today – Generation Z (those ages 18 to 23 in 2020) and the Millennial generation (ages 24 to 39 in 2020) – favored Biden over Trump by a margin of 20 percentage points, though Trump gained 8 points among Millennials compared with his 2016 performance. Generation Xers, those ages 40 to 55 in 2020, divided relatively evenly (51% to 48%), as did Baby Boomers. Only among members of the Silent Generation, ages 75 to 92 in 2020, was Trump clearly favored (by 58%-42%). link

So just under 40% of the younger groups supported Trump.

[scgal]

Sept 16, 2023 9:24:20 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Sept 15, 2023 17:35:56 GMT -5 scgal said:

We are immigrants. Mostly German and Italian. 

POC are "literally" victims of white people. You don't think white people are victims of POC? I love to see those numbers

If you're immigrants then we're going to have to shoot you. Sorry, your rules, not mine.

And yes, POC are literally victims of white people. Don't believe me? Ask Emmitt Till or George Floyd or Traveon Martin or Brianna Taylor. The list goes on and on. And those are just the ones that make the news.

Let me ask you something. When you go to a store, do the employees follow you around waiting for you to steal something? Do they ask you if you speak English before saying whatever they have to say to you? Has anyone ever walked up to you and told you to go back to where you came from even though you were born in America? Have police ever stopped you for being brown where the white people live? All of the above has happened to me based solely on what I look like. Never mind the fact that I'm an American citizen whose parents, grandparents, etc were all born in America. I make 6 figures and am highly respected in my field and have never been in any legal trouble in my life. Because I'm brown and have tattoos I'm immediately presumed to be an illegal gang banger and dangerous. This is just the cliff notes of what it is like to be a POC in America. Get a clue.

And white people are killed by POC. Depending on which stat you read black on white killing is 2x that of white on black. Don't quite fit the narrative does it. All those killings you listed was not due to systemic racism. Racism could be part of it but it is not systemic. Yes I have walked into a store was followed around and told I don't belong there based on my color also. The area the Bronx. Is that not racism I'm sure it was but I don't play a victim over it. There is going to be racist people but in todays society systemic racism is not there. 

[scgal]

Sept 16, 2023 9:56:26 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Sept 16, 2023 5:03:04 GMT -5 scgal said:

No there isn't, but they do have a right to like or dislike anyone for any reason. You know freedom and all. You cannot tell someone to like or dislike someone, you cannot mandate it all you can do is make sure they are not discriminated against. My first understanding of this I was quite young there was a KKK assembly in my home town in NY. My mother was upset and on edge I asked her what was the matter she said nothing good comes of this. I said then why are they allowed to do it she said it is their right. Till this point all I knew was up until this point what is good is allowed what is bad is not. Not something is bad but is their right to do it (believe that way). 

Do you favor or oppose hate crime sentencing enhancements when bigots commit crimes (and found guilty by a jury of their peers) on those they hate because of their race, national origin, religion, sexual identity, skin color, etc.?

Or are the sentencing enhancements not necessary.

That is a hard one. I once thought the enhancements was good. Now I'm not so sure. My reasoning is the crime is the same someone committed a crime against someone else does making the sentence higher because of the reason why change anything? Or is it there just to show its more heinous trying to rile everyone up. If a person kills another person because they are gay its murder I don't see how making it a hate crime will solve anything.

[Tennesseer]

Sept 16, 2023 10:19:42 GMT -5 scgal said:

Sept 16, 2023 9:56:26 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Do you favor or oppose hate crime sentencing enhancements when bigots commit crimes (and found guilty by a jury of their peers) on those they hate because of their race, national origin, religion, sexual identity, skin color, etc.?

Or are the sentencing enhancements not necessary.

That is a hard one. I once thought the enhancements was good. Now I'm not so sure. My reasoning is the crime is the same someone committed a crime against someone else does making the sentence higher because of the reason why change anything? Or is it there just to show its more heinous trying to rile everyone up. If a person kills another person because they are gay its murder I don't see how making it a hate crime will solve anything.

So no extra sentencing for murdering someone who the killer did not know but was only murdered for walking out of a gay bar.

Got it.

[andi9899]

Sept 16, 2023 10:12:47 GMT -5 scgal said:

Sept 16, 2023 9:24:20 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

If you're immigrants then we're going to have to shoot you. Sorry, your rules, not mine.

And yes, POC are literally victims of white people. Don't believe me? Ask Emmitt Till or George Floyd or Traveon Martin or Brianna Taylor. The list goes on and on. And those are just the ones that make the news.

Let me ask you something. When you go to a store, do the employees follow you around waiting for you to steal something? Do they ask you if you speak English before saying whatever they have to say to you? Has anyone ever walked up to you and told you to go back to where you came from even though you were born in America? Have police ever stopped you for being brown where the white people live? All of the above has happened to me based solely on what I look like. Never mind the fact that I'm an American citizen whose parents, grandparents, etc were all born in America. I make 6 figures and am highly respected in my field and have never been in any legal trouble in my life. Because I'm brown and have tattoos I'm immediately presumed to be an illegal gang banger and dangerous. This is just the cliff notes of what it is like to be a POC in America. Get a clue.

And white people are killed by POC. Depending on which stat you read black on white killing is 2x that of white on black. Don't quite fit the narrative does it. All those killings you listed was not due to systemic racism. Racism could be part of it but it is not systemic. Yes I have walked into a store was followed around and told I don't belong there based on my color also. The area the Bronx. Is that not racism I'm sure it was but I don't play a victim over it. There is going to be racist people but in todays society systemic racism is not there. 

Serial killers are predominantly white males. BTK, Jeffrey Dahmer, etc. All white males. Jeffery preferred men of color, but he killed white people too. Find me a black one.

Racism is alive and well in 2023 and is definitely systematic. White people are crazy because they can be. If there was an altercation between a white person and a POC, immediately the police would bump rush the POC and ask questions later. When you have dark skin, you just get treated differently. We live in the most diverse country in the world which happens to also be the most racist country in the world.

[andi9899]

Sept 16, 2023 10:22:15 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Sept 16, 2023 10:19:42 GMT -5 scgal said:

That is a hard one. I once thought the enhancements was good. Now I'm not so sure. My reasoning is the crime is the same someone committed a crime against someone else does making the sentence higher because of the reason why change anything? Or is it there just to show its more heinous trying to rile everyone up. If a person kills another person because they are gay its murder I don't see how making it a hate crime will solve anything.

So no extra sentencing for murdering someone who the killer did not know but was only murdered for walking out of a gay bar.

Got it.

I thought about this one day when I was with friends at a gay bar. I am the straightest person ever and yet I'm basically a sitting duck inside that bar because I don't hate gay people. America is a messed up place.

[Opti]

Sept 16, 2023 10:12:47 GMT -5 scgal said:

Sept 16, 2023 9:24:20 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

If you're immigrants then we're going to have to shoot you. Sorry, your rules, not mine.

And yes, POC are literally victims of white people. Don't believe me? Ask Emmitt Till or George Floyd or Traveon Martin or Brianna Taylor. The list goes on and on. And those are just the ones that make the news.

Let me ask you something. When you go to a store, do the employees follow you around waiting for you to steal something? Do they ask you if you speak English before saying whatever they have to say to you? Has anyone ever walked up to you and told you to go back to where you came from even though you were born in America? Have police ever stopped you for being brown where the white people live? All of the above has happened to me based solely on what I look like. Never mind the fact that I'm an American citizen whose parents, grandparents, etc were all born in America. I make 6 figures and am highly respected in my field and have never been in any legal trouble in my life. Because I'm brown and have tattoos I'm immediately presumed to be an illegal gang banger and dangerous. This is just the cliff notes of what it is like to be a POC in America. Get a clue.

And white people are killed by POC. Depending on which stat you read black on white killing is 2x that of white on black. Don't quite fit the narrative does it. All those killings you listed was not due to systemic racism. Racism could be part of it but it is not systemic. Yes I have walked into a store was followed around and told I don't belong there based on my color also. The area the Bronx. Is that not racism I'm sure it was but I don't play a victim over it. There is going to be racist people but in todays society systemic racism is not there. 

It's good to dive into stats and see their limitations. Turns out this is based on less than half of the killings in a year as racial information is known for less than half of the cases, about 39%. 


The most detailed racial data have limits: They are confined to cases in which one person was killed and one person did the killing, eliminating about 17 percent of homicides. Also, police have to know and provide the backgrounds of not only the victims but the perpetrators, too – meaning that thousands of cases left unsolved and with no description of the person who committed the crimes are discounted. In total, about 61 percent of the 15,696 homicides committed in 2015 are excluded.

www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-09-29/race-and-homicide-in-america-by-the-numbers

[scgal]

Sept 16, 2023 10:34:30 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Sept 16, 2023 10:12:47 GMT -5 scgal said:

And white people are killed by POC. Depending on which stat you read black on white killing is 2x that of white on black. Don't quite fit the narrative does it. All those killings you listed was not due to systemic racism. Racism could be part of it but it is not systemic. Yes I have walked into a store was followed around and told I don't belong there based on my color also. The area the Bronx. Is that not racism I'm sure it was but I don't play a victim over it. There is going to be racist people but in todays society systemic racism is not there. 

Serial killers are predominantly white males. BTK, Jeffrey Dahmer, etc. All white males. Jeffery preferred men of color, but he killed white people too. Find me a black one.

Racism is alive and well in 2023 and is definitely systematic. White people are crazy because they can be. If there was an altercation between a white person and a POC, immediately the police would bump rush the POC and ask questions later. When you have dark skin, you just get treated differently. We live in the most diverse country in the world which happens to also be the most racist country in the world.

Yet we are talking about murders in general not just serial killers. There is more black on white than white on black. Care to dispute that?

I agree there is racism but please point out any systematic racism and I mean real tangible not just theory or what if or the I just know shit

[scgal]

Sept 16, 2023 10:22:15 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Sept 16, 2023 10:19:42 GMT -5 scgal said:

That is a hard one. I once thought the enhancements was good. Now I'm not so sure. My reasoning is the crime is the same someone committed a crime against someone else does making the sentence higher because of the reason why change anything? Or is it there just to show its more heinous trying to rile everyone up. If a person kills another person because they are gay its murder I don't see how making it a hate crime will solve anything.

So no extra sentencing for murdering someone who the killer did not know but was only murdered for walking out of a gay bar.

Got it.

Why should that murder be any different than someone riding down the street and shooting in a crowd. Both innocent victims why should one victim death be more important than another?

[scgal]

Sept 16, 2023 12:23:42 GMT -5 Opti said:

Sept 16, 2023 10:12:47 GMT -5 scgal said:

And white people are killed by POC. Depending on which stat you read black on white killing is 2x that of white on black. Don't quite fit the narrative does it. All those killings you listed was not due to systemic racism. Racism could be part of it but it is not systemic. Yes I have walked into a store was followed around and told I don't belong there based on my color also. The area the Bronx. Is that not racism I'm sure it was but I don't play a victim over it. There is going to be racist people but in todays society systemic racism is not there. 

It's good to dive into stats and see their limitations. Turns out this is based on less than half of the killings in a year as racial information is known for less than half of the cases, about 39%. 


The most detailed racial data have limits: They are confined to cases in which one person was killed and one person did the killing, eliminating about 17 percent of homicides. Also, police have to know and provide the backgrounds of not only the victims but the perpetrators, too – meaning that thousands of cases left unsolved and with no description of the person who committed the crimes are discounted. In total, about 61 percent of the 15,696 homicides committed in 2015 are excluded.

www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-09-29/race-and-homicide-in-america-by-the-numbers

You can on go on the information provided which is there is 2x the amount of black on white killing than white on black. Hummmm where's the real racism

[Tennesseer]

Sept 16, 2023 12:32:48 GMT -5 scgal said:

Sept 16, 2023 10:22:15 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

So no extra sentencing for murdering someone who the killer did not know but was only murdered for walking out of a gay bar.

Got it.

Why should that murder be any different than someone riding down the street and shooting in a crowd. Both innocent victims why should one victim death be more important than another?

Because bigots like the hypothetical anti-gay shooter here might think twice about killing someone if they get an enhanced prison sentence just because they hate what their anonymous victims are and not who they are.