401K Loans

[Pink Cashmere]

Nov 5, 2022 15:41:38 GMT -5 CCL said:

You guys are killing me. $30k-$50k, that's a lot of money! I understand why it has to be done, though. I wouldn't leave my house like that, either.

Then I hear youngins complaining about brick. I love my brick! A younger couple bought a house (all brick) in the neighborhood. This is a $400k house and they got the idea they could have it painted a blue-gray color. Their contractor got one side done and the HOA shut them down and made them strip it all off. Why would you buy an all-brick house, then paint it? Just go buy a house with siding if you like painting. I guess they like a lot of maintenance.

I didn’t want to seem like an asshole by talking about brick houses in this thread, but since you brought it up,

My other house is all brick. The only wood is trim around the roof line and the windows. Buying an all brick house was not a deliberate choice, but it didn’t take long for me to appreciate it.

The house I live in now is an extra large version of my other house. Pretty much literally, same exact style, just much bigger and different colored brick. One of DD’s friends from the old neighborhood came over with her to visit and when he saw the current house, he told her “your Momma bought the same house again!” which was funny because it was true lol.

But this house has even less wood trim. The bricks along the roof line are like stair steps, and there is no wood trim up there, just the gutters, which posed a problem with installing lights and cameras. Because there is no wood trim, you have to drill into the bricks to install anything that you want hard wired. And that is why we got an estimate of $4k just to install 4 cameras….. apparently drilling into bricks is tricky and even more of a PITA when they are very old bricks that aren’t easily replaced with an exact match if you mess up.

On topic, with 401k loans, I contributed to my 401k type retirement savings plan from day 1 because I was not about to turn down “free money” in the form of my employer’s matching. Because I was not thinking about retirement because it seemed so far away, I took loans and withdrawals over the years from my retirement savings account, which I regret now. 

The worst of it was that I took withdrawals to try to pay my bills when I was in deep dodo after my children’s serious medical issues that left me in dire straits financially. I still ended up filing chapter 7 BK, and in hindsight, it was a mistake to use money from protected savings to try to prevent the inevitable. But at the time, I just wanted to keep my word and pay everybody I owed, because to me, my word is my bond. But once I was able to separate my “feelings”, from business, I realized and had to accept that those were very bad business decisions, especially since I ended up filing BK anyway.

So I forgive myself for my ignorance and know that I am still much better off than if I’d never put anything in my retirement accounts.

So, with my experiences and mistakes, if I absolutely had to come up with some money to make necessary repairs to my house, I would go for a HELOC or whatever. What I would not do is put my retirement savings at risk. Because if my world falls apart again, this time I would know that my retirement savings are protected from creditors. And that is the most money I have anywhere in this world. 

Your situation may be different that you can take that risk, but for me, with what I’ve learned from my past experiences, I am not willing to risk my retirement savings for anything that is not a matter of life or death.

[CCL]

Nov 5, 2022 20:37:42 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Nov 5, 2022 15:41:38 GMT -5 CCL said:

You guys are killing me. $30k-$50k, that's a lot of money! I understand why it has to be done, though. I wouldn't leave my house like that, either.

Then I hear youngins complaining about brick. I love my brick! A younger couple bought a house (all brick) in the neighborhood. This is a $400k house and they got the idea they could have it painted a blue-gray color. Their contractor got one side done and the HOA shut them down and made them strip it all off. Why would you buy an all-brick house, then paint it? Just go buy a house with siding if you like painting. I guess they like a lot of maintenance.

While I much prefer brick to wood or siding, I absolutely prefer stone to brick.  It is much more visually interesting.  With brick, they are all the same size and often the same color with little variation.  Brick also has a flat surface look.  With stone they are not all the same shape or size, and you can have more color variation either within each stone or from stone to stone while still looking very natural.  It is also not a flat surface, which increases the visual appeal for me.   

Either way, I cannot imagine paying $10-20,000 to paint a house or $30-50,000 for siding.  And to do it more than once, as you would likely have to do with paint? Oh no.  

I like stone, too. My house brick is varying shades of gray with a bit of tan and cream colors. It also has stone surrounding one big window in front, so doesn't look plain at all. I like it. The trim is wood which we still have to paint every 7-10 years, but that's OK. It's not overwhelming and since I'm cheap, we can paint it ourselves.

[minnesotapaintlady]

I wouldn't be considering this at all if I wasn't so getting somewhat close to retirement and sitting pretty good savings-wise.  Before the downturn I was already at the 25X  expenses benchmark and right now am at about 14X income.  I feel like I've got some breathing room. 

I'll admit part of me just likes that it's easy.  A couple clicks on the Prudential website and up to 50K is in my account, but I can get 30K from the HELOC just as easily, and either way I'm stuck trying to pay it back.  It was going to be something like $430/ biweekly paycheck for 5 years!

[CCL]

Maybe start with getting estimates on what it will actually cost? I like the idea of only replacing the sides that actually need it. If you could add some brick, that would be nice, too. You never know. By doing only what actually needs replaced the cost may not be too bad.

Would it be expensive to have your yard regraded, too, and maybe solve the flooding issues while you are at it? I'm guessing it's pricey.

[MN-Investor]

I suppose it was something like 40 years ago that the company I worked for was putting together its first 401(k) plan. My boss - the director of the tax department - was working with the legal department on the details. I remember my boss telling me that including a loan provision was optional for these plans and that my company was NOT going to include such a provision. Our company's opinion was that the 401(k) was for saving for retirement. Period.

(Of course, that was 40 years ago and the people who authored the plan are long gone, so I suppose it does include a loan provision now.)

[tskeeter]

Nov 5, 2022 9:54:38 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Nov 4, 2022 23:03:35 GMT -5 CCL said:

Any chance you could borrow against your mom's cd again? Or what about a home equity loan/line?

Could you get some of the neighbors, friends or family to help with it? Do it yourself to save on labor costs? I've put vinyl siding on a mini barn myself. It's not that hard, although a whole house would be a LOT more work.

I know you don't want to decrease retirement contributions due to the tax benefits.

I doubt my mom still has the CD...that was 30+ years ago.  I do have a 30K HELOC though, just not sure 30K will do it!  My house is really big (with attached 3 car garage that would have to be done too) and I doubt I can do vinyl here, unless they have some new product that is more durable.  It gets very windy up here sometimes, so most houses have some sort of hardboard or steel.

I am contemplating finding out if they could just do the south side of the house with something that matches.  That's really the only part that is really bad, the bottom 1/4 on the North side around the lower windows has rotting too and I'm considering bricking that.  They were going to when I built and I decided against it to save money.

The West side is still perfect....

Adding brick to your house now may be a challenge (read “really expensive”).  In modern houses, brick is usually just a veneer attached to the wood frame of the house.  In order to support the brick, the foundation is constructed extra wide.  The extra width is called a brick ledge.  If the foundation was constructed without a brick ledge, you could find that adding a brick veneer now, if even possible, might be cost prohibitive.

Here’s an opinion that’s worth every cent you’re paying for it.  Is this your forever house, or is it possible that you’ll downsize after both of the boys are launched?  If Downsizing is more than a remote possibility, you might want to make cost effectiveness your primary decision consideration, not things such as long service life, minimal maintenance, or high design.  In the spirit of cost effectiveness, do you realize that a single damaged piece of siding can be removed and replaced?  Sure the color won’t be a perfect match, so the patches will probably show.  But that’s what paint is for.  I’d expect replacing a couple of pieces of siding and painting one side of the house to even out the color would be a fraction of the cost of stripping the existing siding on that side of the house and replacing it with new siding.

[finnime]

It seems to me highly unlikely you will lose your job in the near future. You have a compelling current need for the money and a solid plan to pay back a 401k loan, including Ibonds and/or a Heloc. I would take the low-risk gamble and do it. Preserving your home is paramount, and this will help to do that. If you get on a contractor's schedule very soon you might get a great price if you agree to have it done when they have a lull. Especially with winter breathing down your neck, you could get a great deal.

I have taken and repaid 401k loans 3 times in my life and each time was grateful that I could. The first time was to purchase a house. The second and third times were in the wake of divorcing/being divorced, and again the urgency overrode the benefit from waiting.

It's not like you're going to use the money on hookers and blow.

[CCL]

If you can find someone who knows what they are doing, you maybe you can get by with only replacing the damaged boards. That's what I would do.

Hubby replaced damaged wood siding on our other house. It really didn't take him long. It was a full wall about 16 ft long with 1 window. He had it done and painted in an afternoon.

I'm thinking you have Hardieplank or something similar?

I found some siding repair videos:

www.finehomebuilding.com/project-guides/siding-exterior-trim/repairing-damaged-siding-series-fiber-cement-repair

[Tiny]

Nov 5, 2022 19:17:56 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Nov 5, 2022 15:41:38 GMT -5 CCL said:

You guys are killing me. $30k-$50k, that's a lot of money! I understand why it has to be done, though. I wouldn't leave my house like that, either.

Then I hear youngins complaining about brick. I love my brick! A younger couple bought a house (all brick) in the neighborhood. This is a $400k house and they got the idea they could have it painted a blue-gray color. Their contractor got one side done and the HOA shut them down and made them strip it all off. Why would you buy an all-brick house, then paint it? Just go buy a house with siding if you like painting. I guess they like a lot of maintenance.

No lie!  Why do you think I've put it off for so long!   The thought of sticking that kind of money into this place makes me sick...especially since it still floods.  I kept hoping we'd get a bad enough storm that the siding would get damaged and insurance would cover a lot of it, but it was always just the roof.

And I love brick houses!  When I was down south this year I was noticing all the brick ranch houses everywhere and thought they were so "solid" looking. 

LOL. How solid it actually is depends on how the house was built. Lots of homes just get a "brick veneer" - sometimes it's just premade panels with a brick pattern on it. Sometimes it's an actual single layer of bricks stacked up and glued to the wall (board) behind it. Neither is particularly "solid".

FWIW: friends (and family) bought houses in a new sub division of cookie cutter wood frame houses in the mid 80's. The more expensive ones had a front with a brick facade (the rest of the house was vinyl siding). The houses family/friends bought were all vinyl siding. The brick work looked really nice as a decorative feature (I always though it looked weird as I live in the land of Brick Houses built in the 1920s thru the 1960's.) Fast forward twenty years and the brick facades started pulling away from the houses (letting in water) or sometimes just peeling off the house in sheets. These were actual bricks in a single layer stacked up and "glued" to the house - not large premade panels. Keep in mind that not all "brick houses" are built the same.

If you add a brick facade or veneer - you should think about water getting behind the facade/veneer.   Water is always an enemy of houses. 

I do agree with you that actual brick houses are quite sturdy. I live in one (built in the 1940's).  It doesn't move in high winds. The joke is when the nuclear bomb drops all the 1930's plus  brick bungalows will still be standing.     Also be aware that building a brick house now is really expensive  (and will probably be cinderblock/concrete block with a decorative veneer).  

Just an FYI: for current brick houses they are often cinderblocks (I think that's what they are called. Or maybe concrete block?) with a veneer panel of "bricks" over the cinderblocks to give the appearance of a brick house (technically it is brick) but...cinderblocks come with their own set of building "gotchas" depending on where you in America you live. (both of my older florida properties are concrete block/cinderblock for example. The house has a stucco exterior the other is "decorated" by having a mansard roof look - where the second story has "cedar shingles" over the cinderblock first level. the walls hold up well to high winds. ) There are construction considerations when using cinderblock construction and then when applying the brick veneer. I think the climate where you live dramatically effects the effectiveness of this kind of construction. I also think the cinderblock with a decorative brick veneer has a better water repellent quality than the use of a veneer of bricks on a wood frame house.

[finnime]

My last house was an all-brick colonial built in 1945. You'd not be able to guess its age based on the exterior. Brick lasts and looks good indefinitely. Field stone, too.

[minnesotapaintlady]

Nov 6, 2022 12:23:09 GMT -5 CCL said:

I'm thinking you have Hardieplank or something similar?

It's Colorlok masonite which they quit producing in the late 90's due to lawsuits.  Stupid kid that I was then signed a document that I knew these lawsuits were going on and chose to have it installed anyhow.    My contractor told me he'd been using it for many years with no issues, so what were the odds I'd have a problem?

It really is failing in a lot of places, but the holes are what seriously need to be addressed because I'm sure it's starting to rot the house sheathing.

But even where there aren't holes it's rotting on the bottom.

And above the overhead garage doors water must sit on that lip because getting a gap there too.

[Cookies Galore]

Nov 5, 2022 15:41:38 GMT -5 CCL said:

You guys are killing me. $30k-$50k, that's a lot of money! I understand why it has to be done, though. I wouldn't leave my house like that, either.

Then I hear youngins complaining about brick. I love my brick! A younger couple bought a house (all brick) in the neighborhood. This is a $400k house and they got the idea they could have it painted a blue-gray color. Their contractor got one side done and the HOA shut them down and made them strip it all off. Why would you buy an all-brick house, then paint it? Just go buy a house with siding if you like painting. I guess they like a lot of maintenance.

For real! I live in a 1911 brick twin. I LOVE my house!

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Nov 5, 2022 21:31:29 GMT -5 CCL said:

Maybe start with getting estimates on what it will actually cost? I like the idea of only replacing the sides that actually need it. If you could add some brick, that would be nice, too. You never know. By doing only what actually needs replaced the cost may not be too bad.

Would it be expensive to have your yard regraded, too, and maybe solve the flooding issues while you are at it? I'm guessing it's pricey.

Here’s what we found.  Even though a good chunk of the house was rot free, just replacing the rotted boards was not suggested.  Residing piecemeal takes more time, and in our case the width of the boards to make them comparable to the non rotted part of the house was not available anymore.  I got the impression that the cost was either going to be materials to do the whole thing, or labor to do it piecemeal and they were about the same.

Adding brick may or may not be an inexpensive option.  There are very few brick houses where we live because we do not live near where bricks are manufactured.  Cost of transport drives up the cost considerably.

[Rukh O'Rorke]

Nov 6, 2022 16:54:25 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Nov 6, 2022 12:23:09 GMT -5 CCL said:

I'm thinking you have Hardieplank or something similar?

It's Colorlok masonite which they quit producing in the late 90's due to lawsuits.  Stupid kid that I was then signed a document that I knew these lawsuits were going on and chose to have it installed anyhow.    My contractor told me he'd been using it for many years with no issues, so what were the odds I'd have a problem?

These days, I usually attribute contractor pushing on a particular product to mean they have some leftovers in their garage..... 

[Rukh O'Rorke]

Nov 5, 2022 15:41:38 GMT -5 CCL said:

You guys are killing me. $30k-$50k, that's a lot of money! I understand why it has to be done, though. I wouldn't leave my house like that, either.

Then I hear youngins complaining about brick. I love my brick! A younger couple bought a house (all brick) in the neighborhood. This is a $400k house and they got the idea they could have it painted a blue-gray color. Their contractor got one side done and the HOA shut them down and made them strip it all off. Why would you buy an all-brick house, then paint it? Just go buy a house with siding if you like painting. I guess they like a lot of maintenance.

I've never heard anyone complain about brick, so that is weird to hear. 

When buying, I had things narrowed to this house which is frame and siding, and a brick house that I really liked. the brick house had a very small yard, 2 or 3 fewer rooms, and about 50k more. I could barely afford this one, the extra 50k at that time was about another multiple of my yearly salary. I always wanted a brick house, but they are so much more expensive.

I was pretty shocked when a new group bought a corner church, really nice brick one, and painted it. Painted the brick white and the cement detailing painted gold.

In just a few years later there is some peeling going. Not sure about the paint used.

Cosmetically - brick is maintenance free unpainted, which is great. But painted brick is still brick, so structurally still superior, and painted brick is a different look too, so I wouldn't consider it at all the same as a frame house.

[TheOtherMe]

I grew up in a brick house and I would love to be living in a brick house.

[Deleted]

Nov 7, 2022 1:13:43 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

I was pretty shocked when a new group bought a corner church, really nice brick one, and painted it. Painted the brick white and the cement detailing painted gold.

In just a few years later there is some peeling going. Not sure about the paint used.

I'd never heard of this till some neighbors did this just before we put the house on the market. It was mostly n=black wtih a bit of white trim- just awful. They ended up painting more of it white, which was an improvement. I have no idea what they were thinking.

[scgal]

Nov 6, 2022 16:54:25 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Nov 6, 2022 12:23:09 GMT -5 CCL said:

I'm thinking you have Hardieplank or something similar?

It's Colorlok masonite which they quit producing in the late 90's due to lawsuits.  Stupid kid that I was then signed a document that I knew these lawsuits were going on and chose to have it installed anyhow.    My contractor told me he'd been using it for many years with no issues, so what were the odds I'd have a problem?

It really is failing in a lot of places, but the holes are what seriously need to be addressed because I'm sure it's starting to rot the house sheathing.

But even where there aren't holes it's rotting on the bottom.

And above the overhead garage doors water must sit on that lip because getting a gap there too.

We bought our house last year and it had the same siding. I couldn't believe they used masonite unreal. We did a exterior reno roof, siding windows, upgrade front porch 42k. Three years ago could have gotten it done for 25k.

[raeoflyte]

I have a brick home with the ugliest bricks ever made. They're a peach/orange color. I'd paint them in a heartbeat but it would crush my mom so I hold off. There isn't even an accent color I can do for trim/doors that make the brick color better.

I love my house though, ugly bricks included.

I'd replace just the siding on the side of the house that needs it, but I'm cheap.

[minnesotapaintlady]

Nov 7, 2022 9:59:05 GMT -5 scgal said:

Nov 6, 2022 16:54:25 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

We bought our house last year and it had the same siding. I couldn't believe they used masonite unreal. We did a exterior reno roof, siding windows, upgrade front porch 42k. Three years ago could have gotten it done for 25k.

What area are you in?  I know Mich is in a real HCOL area, so I'm hoping more for something around 30K for just the siding than 50K.

[minnesotapaintlady]

Nov 7, 2022 9:10:31 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Nov 7, 2022 1:13:43 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

I was pretty shocked when a new group bought a corner church, really nice brick one, and painted it. Painted the brick white and the cement detailing painted gold.

In just a few years later there is some peeling going. Not sure about the paint used.

I'd never heard of this till some neighbors did this just before we put the house on the market. It was mostly n=black wtih a bit of white trim- just awful. They ended up painting more of it white, which was an improvement. I have no idea what they were thinking.

Painting brick was a thing in our town for awhile.  I never understood doing that because it's something you just have to keep doing as it chips and looks crappy after not too long.

[CCL]

In that first pic, I wonder if the gutters were installed correctly. Maybe not enough slope causing water damage maybe? It looks like they cut the siding to fit the gutter inside (may be only looks that way due to damage). I've never seen that done before, but I'm no builder.

[minnesotapaintlady]

I'm thinking water just overflowed the gutter occasionally and it started eating away at the siding over the years.  With this crap once water gets in there it just dissolves.  Apparently you're supposed to re-caulk with masonite every 6 months!  WTH does that?? 

[Rukh O'Rorke]

Nov 7, 2022 10:11:53 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

I have a brick home with the ugliest bricks ever made. They're a peach/orange color. I'd paint them in a heartbeat but it would crush my mom so I hold off. There isn't even an accent color I can do for trim/doors that make the brick color better.

I love my house though, ugly bricks included.

I'd replace just the siding on the side of the house that needs it, but I'm cheap.

can you link something similar? If I google peach orange brick house, they all look pretty nice!

[tskeeter]

Nov 6, 2022 16:54:25 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Nov 6, 2022 12:23:09 GMT -5 CCL said:

I'm thinking you have Hardieplank or something similar?

It's Colorlok masonite which they quit producing in the late 90's due to lawsuits.  Stupid kid that I was then signed a document that I knew these lawsuits were going on and chose to have it installed anyhow.    My contractor told me he'd been using it for many years with no issues, so what were the odds I'd have a problem?

It really is failing in a lot of places, but the holes are what seriously need to be addressed because I'm sure it's starting to rot the house sheathing.

But even where there aren't holes it's rotting on the bottom.

And above the overhead garage doors water must sit on that lip because getting a gap there too.

Wow!  I see why you want to completely replace the siding.  

It looks like you need some gutter work, too.  The wear and rot in the first picture was most likely caused by years of water flowing over the gutter and down the siding.  (This isn’t an occasional overflow issue.  It’s years of water every time it rains.)  I wouldn’t leave the siding by the gutter the way it is through another MN winter and spring.  I’d use thin plastic, or sheet metal step flashing to cover the holes and shed water down the wall instead of letting water run behind the siding and rot the wall away.  Whatever you use should be installed similar to shingles, with each piece of flashing tucked up under the piece of siding above by at least an inch or two.  It won’t look good, but it will minimize additional damage until you can get the siding replaced.  (Before I put on new siding, I’d open up the wall in the area of the gutter overflow damage all the way to the framing to check for and repair any rot.)

[CCL]

Nov 7, 2022 11:38:45 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

I'm thinking water just overflowed the gutter occasionally and it started eating away at the siding over the years.  With this crap once water gets in there it just dissolves.  Apparently you're supposed to re-caulk with masonite every 6 months!  WTH does that?? 

If your gutters are overflowing it also could be because the gutters/downspouts are too small to handle the amount of water they get.

I'm thinking Pink had her gutters or downspouts redone due to water issues.

[minnesotapaintlady]

Nov 7, 2022 14:15:26 GMT -5 CCL said:

Nov 7, 2022 11:38:45 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

I'm thinking water just overflowed the gutter occasionally and it started eating away at the siding over the years.  With this crap once water gets in there it just dissolves.  Apparently you're supposed to re-caulk with masonite every 6 months!  WTH does that?? 

If your gutters are overflowing it also could be because the gutters/downspouts are too small to handle the amount of water they get.

I'm thinking Pink had her gutters or downspouts redone due to water issues.

That gutter shouldn't get much.  It's just for a small section of roof on a 4 season porch that juts out of the back of the house. It might need to be hung at more of an angle though.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

A lot is going to depend on if there is an6 damage to the structure under the siding.  I know that is was something TD was concerned about, and was one of the reasons why h3 wanted to get it done sooner than later.

We lucked out in the the rotting was limited to the outer siding.  It could have been worse.

[schildi]

There is no double taxation on the principal repayment of a 401(k) loan, that's a myth.
Possibly on the interest portion, but not on the principal repayment.

[raeoflyte]

Nov 7, 2022 12:05:28 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

Nov 7, 2022 10:11:53 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

I have a brick home with the ugliest bricks ever made. They're a peach/orange color. I'd paint them in a heartbeat but it would crush my mom so I hold off. There isn't even an accent color I can do for trim/doors that make the brick color better.

I love my house though, ugly bricks included.

I'd replace just the siding on the side of the house that needs it, but I'm cheap.

can you link something similar? If I google peach orange brick house, they all look pretty nice!

This looks like mine. When I pulled up today I thought it looked much more neutral and pretty ok. But then I walked up to it and the orange hit me.

pin.it/1EyZA25