laterbloomer
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 26, 2018 0:50:42 GMT -5
Posts: 4,350
|
Post by laterbloomer on Aug 25, 2022 14:30:46 GMT -5
Well, MY reasoning for not getting LTC is I'm single, don't care about leaving an inheritance and my "insurance" I consider to be my house. If I have to move into LTC, selling the house (which I would want to do anyhow) would get me a solid 4 years of LTC assuming about 8K/month before moving on to the retirement accounts. While sometimes people end up in there for a decade or more, the average stay is less than 18 months and in my family it's uncommon to end up there at all, so just playing the odds, but if I burn through all the house money and all the retirement accounts, I'm fine with Medicaid. Generally if you're already an established resident you just get moved over to that type of payment. This is me too. I purposely bought a bungalow in case stairs become an issue as I get older. Unless I need specific health care it would probably be cheaper for me to get in home supports and many of those are covered by my provincial health care if needed.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 30, 2024 1:42:26 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2022 15:46:47 GMT -5
We've had our policies with Metlife since 2001. They provide a daily benefit that will, at today's rates in our locale, will cover about 2/3 of the cost. We both have unlimited lifetime coverage. The premiums adjust annually to reflect our increased age. DH will be 83 this fall and his premium is $626/month. I'll be 75 this fall and my premium is $336/month. LTC is definitely not a one-size-fits-all topic. As I mentioned previously, being a couple completely changes the dynamic since neither one of us wants our spouse eating cat food if the other is institutionalized. I have neighbors whose house is literally falling down around them because of the asset surrender needed for their spouse's Medicaid qualification. Yes, they have the house but zero $ to maintain it. The lucky ones have kids to replace the fence or the faucet, sometimes we find youth or church volunteers to clean up their yards. But they end up as blue-tarpers when a storm wipes out the roof because they have cancelled their homeowners insurance. susana1954 it's my understanding that unlimited benefit policies are no longer available. NomoreDramaQ1015 I'm sure that our local homes will require self-pay and application for reimbursement which is okay with me. That's no different from the growing number of doctors who require self-pay and you file with the insurance company for reimbursement. I can see where that limits the loss ratio for the homes and saves staff $$ chasing payments. I remember reading about your struggles to get things set up for your grandmother. It was your posts and others that jolted us to get off the couch and set up a solid estate plan. Thank you One change our new estate attorney recommended is designating someone (her or the bank that is successor trustee) to be notified if for some reason the premium payment is not made. She has seen a few of her clients absolutely screwed because a premium payment was missed for some reason. We will take her advice, even though the payment is automatically drafted from our account. Better safe than sorry
|
|
jerseygirl
Senior Member
Joined: May 13, 2018 7:43:08 GMT -5
Posts: 4,775
|
Post by jerseygirl on Aug 25, 2022 16:54:00 GMT -5
soupandstew, my mom and dad lived in a over 55 community for about 10 years. The house next door was empty but fine when they moved in. Gradually fell into disrepair, probably an example of what you mentioned about Medicaid. House isn’t sold but no money for upkeep. Very sad situation. Most seniors from that generation, the Greatest, think had no mortgages when retired. Probably better to just sell house and use proceeds House next to my parents was eventually sold and kids got money. How sad that it wasn’t sold by kids to help their mom. But maybe like Drama’s GM the situation was complicated
|
|
Rukh O'Rorke
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 4, 2016 13:31:15 GMT -5
Posts: 10,041
|
Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Aug 25, 2022 18:45:49 GMT -5
The ones my mom found was a lot of the nursing homes here want you to pay up front then you apply to your LTC for reimbursement they won't take payments directly probably for all the reasons listed here. You're better off saving the $200+ in premiums and spending down till you get on Medicaid here. More places accept Medicaid than LTC. if you start at 50 and need the care at 72? what does the Phil button say? According to my Phil Script, a monthly investment of $200.00 bearing an annualized return of 11% with gains compounded monthly could grow to $206,342.86 in 22 years!
|
|
Rukh O'Rorke
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 4, 2016 13:31:15 GMT -5
Posts: 10,041
|
Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Aug 25, 2022 18:53:27 GMT -5
We've had our policies with Metlife since 2001. They provide a daily benefit that will, at today's rates in our locale, will cover about 2/3 of the cost. We both have unlimited lifetime coverage. The premiums adjust annually to reflect our increased age. DH will be 83 this fall and his premium is $626/month. I'll be 75 this fall and my premium is $336/month. LTC is definitely not a one-size-fits-all topic. As I mentioned previously, being a couple completely changes the dynamic since neither one of us wants our spouse eating cat food if the other is institutionalized. I have neighbors whose house is literally falling down around them because of the asset surrender needed for their spouse's Medicaid qualification. Yes, they have the house but zero $ to maintain it. The lucky ones have kids to replace the fence or the faucet, sometimes we find youth or church volunteers to clean up their yards. But they end up as blue-tarpers when a storm wipes out the roof because they have cancelled their homeowners insurance. susana1954 it's my understanding that unlimited benefit policies are no longer available. NomoreDramaQ1015 I'm sure that our local homes will require self-pay and application for reimbursement which is okay with me. That's no different from the growing number of doctors who require self-pay and you file with the insurance company for reimbursement. I can see where that limits the loss ratio for the homes and saves staff $$ chasing payments. I remember reading about your struggles to get things set up for your grandmother. It was your posts and others that jolted us to get off the couch and set up a solid estate plan. Thank you One change our new estate attorney recommended is designating someone (her or the bank that is successor trustee) to be notified if for some reason the premium payment is not made. She has seen a few of her clients absolutely screwed because a premium payment was missed for some reason. We will take her advice, even though the payment is automatically drafted from our account. Better safe than sorry wow - that is scary! how does the medicaid thing work with retirement accounts? most things can't touch them, assuming medicaid counts those? Seems like for a couple where one may need care soon, it would be super important to always keep the house in tip top shape, just in case you did need to move to that asset surrender phase of it. Still - I'm thinking they likely undersaved relative to the house costs and/or weren't taking good care of the house either. If house was in good shape, wouldn't be falling around them in 1-2 decades, I wouldn't think.
|
|
Rukh O'Rorke
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 4, 2016 13:31:15 GMT -5
Posts: 10,041
|
Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Aug 25, 2022 18:58:50 GMT -5
NomoreDramaQ1015 I'm sure that our local homes will require self-pay and application for reimbursement which is okay with me. That's no different from the growing number of doctors who require self-pay and you file with the insurance company for reimbursement. wow - that makes it pretty iffy to my mind. How is someone with dementia suppose to manager that? I suppose the family - but what if denied then who fights it? Someone was telling me about nightmares with LTD insurance. You think you are covered but nearly all claims are denied and then you have to keep going back and forth over it.
|
|
dannylion
Junior Associate
Gravity is a harsh mistress
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 12:17:52 GMT -5
Posts: 5,196
Location: Miles over the madness horizon and accelerating
|
Post by dannylion on Aug 25, 2022 19:14:48 GMT -5
LTC always seemed like a gamble to me since when the time came to use it, I would be in a vulnerable state and completely at the mercy of an insurance company whose best interests would not involve paying for care for me. If they refused to pay, what could I do about it? Then I started reading about people who were denied use of the LTC insurance they had paid for, and it was clear that it was not going to be something I wanted to rely on.
So, focused on building assets sufficient to pay for good care. I am hoping that having the ability to pay for my own care will mean I can choose the care I receive and be able to stay in my own home for as long as possible.
Just recently, I've shifted more into dividend-paying assets hoping to be able to cash-flow any future care expenses as much as possible.
Since I don't have any close family and the cousins who will be my beneficiaries are nearly all richer than I am, I'm going to use my money to take care of myself as comfortably as possible as I age. We'll see how it goes. If worse comes to worst, I can move to a nice CCRC and just go with the flow.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 30, 2024 1:42:26 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2022 19:41:41 GMT -5
Before Mister came into the picture, my goal was to have enough assets that if I needed help or care when I got to be a little old lady, hopefully my children would have to just make or help me make decisions without worrying too much about money.
That is still my goal, but it’s more complicated now that Mister is in the mix. The goal is still the same though, whether it’s Mister or my children that have to look out for me.
I still struggle with trying to prepare for retirement, trying to nail it down to numbers overwhelms me and makes my head hurt. So I just keep trying to save as much as I can and pray about the rest.
Unfortunately for me, my Great Grandmother and my Grandmother both had dementia, and my Mom’s only sibling is showing early signs of it. My Grandmother took care of my Great Grandmother until she died, and my Mom and Aunt took care of my Grandmother until she died. But I’m not made of the same stuff they were made of, so I worry about what will happen with my Mom if she needs that kind of care.
My daughter says my son has always said he will take care of me if I get to the point I can’t take care of myself. Even though I distinctly remember a day when he was a disgruntled preteen, upset about me making them help with some chore around the house and he told me that when I get to be an old lady, if I have to live with him, he’s going to make me cut his grass and wash his cars like I made them help me do lol.
|
|
jerseygirl
Senior Member
Joined: May 13, 2018 7:43:08 GMT -5
Posts: 4,775
|
Post by jerseygirl on Aug 25, 2022 20:07:17 GMT -5
That makes a funny mind picture Pink Little old lady pushing around the lawnmower . Your kids love you!!
|
|
susana1954
Well-Known Member
Joined: Feb 23, 2021 18:50:55 GMT -5
Posts: 1,398
|
Post by susana1954 on Aug 26, 2022 6:47:31 GMT -5
We've had our policies with Metlife since 2001. They provide a daily benefit that will, at today's rates in our locale, will cover about 2/3 of the cost. We both have unlimited lifetime coverage. The premiums adjust annually to reflect our increased age. DH will be 83 this fall and his premium is $626/month. I'll be 75 this fall and my premium is $336/month. LTC is definitely not a one-size-fits-all topic. As I mentioned previously, being a couple completely changes the dynamic since neither one of us wants our spouse eating cat food if the other is institutionalized. I have neighbors whose house is literally falling down around them because of the asset surrender needed for their spouse's Medicaid qualification. Yes, they have the house but zero $ to maintain it. The lucky ones have kids to replace the fence or the faucet, sometimes we find youth or church volunteers to clean up their yards. But they end up as blue-tarpers when a storm wipes out the roof because they have cancelled their homeowners insurance. susana1954 it's my understanding that unlimited benefit policies are no longer available. NomoreDramaQ1015 I'm sure that our local homes will require self-pay and application for reimbursement which is okay with me. That's no different from the growing number of doctors who require self-pay and you file with the insurance company for reimbursement. I can see where that limits the loss ratio for the homes and saves staff $$ chasing payments. I remember reading about your struggles to get things set up for your grandmother. It was your posts and others that jolted us to get off the couch and set up a solid estate plan. Thank you One change our new estate attorney recommended is designating someone (her or the bank that is successor trustee) to be notified if for some reason the premium payment is not made. She has seen a few of her clients absolutely screwed because a premium payment was missed for some reason. We will take her advice, even though the payment is automatically drafted from our account. Better safe than sorry wow - that is scary! how does the medicaid thing work with retirement accounts? most things can't touch them, assuming medicaid counts those? Seems like for a couple where one may need care soon, it would be super important to always keep the house in tip top shape, just in case you did need to move to that asset surrender phase of it. Still - I'm thinking they likely undersaved relative to the house costs and/or weren't taking good care of the house either. If house was in good shape, wouldn't be falling around them in 1-2 decades, I wouldn't think.It is my understanding that both person's retirement accounts, in the case of a married couple, are up for grabs unless you have started drawing a stream of income from them . . . basically annuitizing them, in other words. I looked into this a little when DH was so sick. He had no assets other than SS and about $20k in savings . . . the house, car, retirement accounts, etc. were all in my name. They would still be considered "available" for his LTC needs. I worried a lot about this. He was uninsurable. But I am not an expert, trust me. I decided against the insurance, remember? I laughed, Rukh, at the thought that if the house was in good shape, it wouldn't be falling around them in 1-2 decades. It wouldn't take that long if suddenly you stopped doing any maintenance because you have no money. A toilet can stop working in a heartbeat. Ditto any other appliance. A few missing shingles, and you can develop a major leak. That leads to rot and mold. Or vermin intrusion. The yard becomes overgrown quickly. I am neither old nor poor, and I can barely keep up with maintenance. At no point in time am I "good" for the next 1-2 decades. Many of us have to pay for even the simplest help. You know this. You are about to put $100k or more into your house to correct deferred maintenance. Has it been 10-20 years since you have done anything?
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 30, 2024 1:42:26 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2022 7:28:19 GMT -5
It is my understanding that both person's retirement accounts, in the case of a married couple, are up for grabs unless you have started drawing a stream of income from them . . . basically annuitizing them, in other words. I looked into this a little when DH was so sick. He had no assets other than SS and about $20k in savings . . . the house, car, retirement accounts, etc. were all in my name. They would still be considered "available" for his LTC needs. I worried a lot about this. He was uninsurable. But I am not an expert, trust me. I decided against the insurance, remember? Yes, you got it right and even turning it into an annuity has pitfalls since Medicaid also limits how much income the healthy spouse can keep- $30k/year or so? I was in the same situation with DH. And I agree with you on the LTC “coverage” you were offered. Way too many limitations that benefit the insurer, not you.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 30, 2024 1:42:26 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2022 8:28:51 GMT -5
wow - that is scary! how does the medicaid thing work with retirement accounts? most things can't touch them, assuming medicaid counts those? Seems like for a couple where one may need care soon, it would be super important to always keep the house in tip top shape, just in case you did need to move to that asset surrender phase of it. Still - I'm thinking they likely undersaved relative to the house costs and/or weren't taking good care of the house either. If house was in good shape, wouldn't be falling around them in 1-2 decades, I wouldn't think.It is my understanding that both person's retirement accounts, in the case of a married couple, are up for grabs unless you have started drawing a stream of income from them . . . basically annuitizing them, in other words. I looked into this a little when DH was so sick. He had no assets other than SS and about $20k in savings . . . the house, car, retirement accounts, etc. were all in my name. They would still be considered "available" for his LTC needs. I worried a lot about this. He was uninsurable. But I am not an expert, trust me. I decided against the insurance, remember? I laughed, Rukh, at the thought that if the house was in good shape, it wouldn't be falling around them in 1-2 decades. It wouldn't take that long if suddenly you stopped doing any maintenance because you have no money. A toilet can stop working in a heartbeat. Ditto any other appliance. A few missing shingles, and you can develop a major leak. That leads to rot and mold. Or vermin intrusion. The yard becomes overgrown quickly. I am neither old nor poor, and I can barely keep up with maintenance. At no point in time am I "good" for the next 1-2 decades. Many of us have to pay for even the simplest help. You know this. You are about to put $100k or more into your house to correct deferred maintenance. Has it been 10-20 years since you have done anything? Houses can go downhill very quickly. It's sort of a cascade effect where a little problem triggers another problem and so forth. The annual maintenance costs of our home are staggering even without big ticket items like the new AC. We had a hailstorm in 2016 that wiped out the roof. Texas homeowners insurance carries a 2% of insured value deductible for windstorm loss which meant we had to pay $4,500 up front.
|
|
Rukh O'Rorke
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 4, 2016 13:31:15 GMT -5
Posts: 10,041
|
Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Aug 26, 2022 10:23:13 GMT -5
wow - that is scary! how does the medicaid thing work with retirement accounts? most things can't touch them, assuming medicaid counts those? Seems like for a couple where one may need care soon, it would be super important to always keep the house in tip top shape, just in case you did need to move to that asset surrender phase of it. Still - I'm thinking they likely undersaved relative to the house costs and/or weren't taking good care of the house either. If house was in good shape, wouldn't be falling around them in 1-2 decades, I wouldn't think.It is my understanding that both person's retirement accounts, in the case of a married couple, are up for grabs unless you have started drawing a stream of income from them . . . basically annuitizing them, in other words. I looked into this a little when DH was so sick. He had no assets other than SS and about $20k in savings . . . the house, car, retirement accounts, etc. were all in my name. They would still be considered "available" for his LTC needs. I worried a lot about this. He was uninsurable. But I am not an expert, trust me. I decided against the insurance, remember? I laughed, Rukh, at the thought that if the house was in good shape, it wouldn't be falling around them in 1-2 decades. It wouldn't take that long if suddenly you stopped doing any maintenance because you have no money. A toilet can stop working in a heartbeat. Ditto any other appliance. A few missing shingles, and you can develop a major leak. That leads to rot and mold. Or vermin intrusion. The yard becomes overgrown quickly. I am neither old nor poor, and I can barely keep up with maintenance. At no point in time am I "good" for the next 1-2 decades. Many of us have to pay for even the simplest help. You know this. You are about to put $100k or more into your house to correct deferred maintenance. Has it been 10-20 years since you have done anything? I haven't done much in the past 15 years at all - hence my statement. And my house was not kept up well prior to my purchase, just adequate. been here about 18 years, and first 3 I did new roof on most of house, redid a deck. I think that is it for big stuff. Which is why I noted tip top shape! 10 years ago redid kitchen but that was more cosmetic than structural. Did upgrade some wiring at the time, but only as affects the kitchen. Would neighbors say it is fally down around me? I guess it's possible! need the two porches redone and the siding replaced at some point. But the inside is good. Kitchens and baths adequate. Nothing leaking - that I know of!! Of course you are right that smaller things that come up can lead to larger ones if not addressed quickly. My previous home was over 150 years old, a small frame house, with no great maintenance done. Lived there 10 years and just kept it together with scotch tape and bubble gum for the most part. But I was thinking if everything is new within the past 5-10 years, then a house should not be falling down around them in 15 years. I guess it depends on what you see as falling down around them, and what tip top shape starts out as. So - I was speculating that they didn't start out with the house in very good shape. But unintentionally - this thread is supporting my plan to bust out and go to a huge upgrade. I might not have the energy for it later, money or health issue may crop up, and I can start out in tip top and age in place without needing to do much, and then after about 20 years hit the home. Old folks home, that is. That sounds about right to me! Most if not all of the cats will have moved across the rainbow brigde, if either of the offspring want to live in the house that can be arranged in terms of making if fair from an inheritance POV for both, but if they are both hitting late 40's-50's and don't want the house - the legacy is dead, and then selling makes sense. My hope would be one of them would like it sooner to raise a family, and then I'm make myself scarce. But if not, no point in holding on to it when I'm nearing 80.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 30, 2024 1:42:26 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2022 15:49:25 GMT -5
It is my understanding that both person's retirement accounts, in the case of a married couple, are up for grabs unless you have started drawing a stream of income from them . . . basically annuitizing them, in other words. I looked into this a little when DH was so sick. He had no assets other than SS and about $20k in savings . . . the house, car, retirement accounts, etc. were all in my name. They would still be considered "available" for his LTC needs. I worried a lot about this. He was uninsurable. But I am not an expert, trust me. I decided against the insurance, remember? I laughed, Rukh, at the thought that if the house was in good shape, it wouldn't be falling around them in 1-2 decades. It wouldn't take that long if suddenly you stopped doing any maintenance because you have no money. A toilet can stop working in a heartbeat. Ditto any other appliance. A few missing shingles, and you can develop a major leak. That leads to rot and mold. Or vermin intrusion. The yard becomes overgrown quickly. I am neither old nor poor, and I can barely keep up with maintenance. At no point in time am I "good" for the next 1-2 decades. Many of us have to pay for even the simplest help. You know this. You are about to put $100k or more into your house to correct deferred maintenance. Has it been 10-20 years since you have done anything? I haven't done much in the past 15 years at all - hence my statement. And my house was not kept up well prior to my purchase, just adequate. been here about 18 years, and first 3 I did new roof on most of house, redid a deck. I think that is it for big stuff. Which is why I noted tip top shape! 10 years ago redid kitchen but that was more cosmetic than structural. Did upgrade some wiring at the time, but only as affects the kitchen. Would neighbors say it is fally down around me? I guess it's possible! need the two porches redone and the siding replaced at some point. But the inside is good. Kitchens and baths adequate. Nothing leaking - that I know of!! Of course you are right that smaller things that come up can lead to larger ones if not addressed quickly. My previous home was over 150 years old, a small frame house, with no great maintenance done. Lived there 10 years and just kept it together with scotch tape and bubble gum for the most part. But I was thinking if everything is new within the past 5-10 years, then a house should not be falling down around them in 15 years. I guess it depends on what you see as falling down around them, and what tip top shape starts out as. So - I was speculating that they didn't start out with the house in very good shape.But unintentionally - this thread is supporting my plan to bust out and go to a huge upgrade. I might not have the energy for it later, money or health issue may crop up, and I can start out in tip top and age in place without needing to do much, and then after about 20 years hit the home. Old folks home, that is. That sounds about right to me! Most if not all of the cats will have moved across the rainbow brigde, if either of the offspring want to live in the house that can be arranged in terms of making if fair from an inheritance POV for both, but if they are both hitting late 40's-50's and don't want the house - the legacy is dead, and then selling makes sense. My hope would be one of them would like it sooner to raise a family, and then I'm make myself scarce. But if not, no point in holding on to it when I'm nearing 80. The cases I have encountered locally are usually the culmination of a gradual decline. As owners age and their cost-of-living rises (especially medical stuff), they defer or avoid maintenance expenses. As the budget pinches more and more, they cancel their homeowners coverage. They may have families at a distance, but no one locally to see their living conditions. Neighbors and fellow church members try to respect their privacy and dignity. Many of them are of a generation that doesn't believe in seeking assistance or discussing their financial needs with others. It usually reaches a crisis point when the problem becomes painfully public, when a government agency receives complaints about the house. When one spouse goes into assisted living, the other one is even less able to cope financially or physically.
|
|
Rukh O'Rorke
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 4, 2016 13:31:15 GMT -5
Posts: 10,041
|
Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Aug 26, 2022 19:54:03 GMT -5
I haven't done much in the past 15 years at all - hence my statement. And my house was not kept up well prior to my purchase, just adequate. been here about 18 years, and first 3 I did new roof on most of house, redid a deck. I think that is it for big stuff. Which is why I noted tip top shape! 10 years ago redid kitchen but that was more cosmetic than structural. Did upgrade some wiring at the time, but only as affects the kitchen. Would neighbors say it is fally down around me? I guess it's possible! need the two porches redone and the siding replaced at some point. But the inside is good. Kitchens and baths adequate. Nothing leaking - that I know of!! Of course you are right that smaller things that come up can lead to larger ones if not addressed quickly. My previous home was over 150 years old, a small frame house, with no great maintenance done. Lived there 10 years and just kept it together with scotch tape and bubble gum for the most part. But I was thinking if everything is new within the past 5-10 years, then a house should not be falling down around them in 15 years. I guess it depends on what you see as falling down around them, and what tip top shape starts out as. So - I was speculating that they didn't start out with the house in very good shape.But unintentionally - this thread is supporting my plan to bust out and go to a huge upgrade. I might not have the energy for it later, money or health issue may crop up, and I can start out in tip top and age in place without needing to do much, and then after about 20 years hit the home. Old folks home, that is. That sounds about right to me! Most if not all of the cats will have moved across the rainbow brigde, if either of the offspring want to live in the house that can be arranged in terms of making if fair from an inheritance POV for both, but if they are both hitting late 40's-50's and don't want the house - the legacy is dead, and then selling makes sense. My hope would be one of them would like it sooner to raise a family, and then I'm make myself scarce. But if not, no point in holding on to it when I'm nearing 80. The cases I have encountered locally are usually the culmination of a gradual decline. As owners age and their cost-of-living rises (especially medical stuff), they defer or avoid maintenance expenses. As the budget pinches more and more, they cancel their homeowners coverage. They may have families at a distance, but no one locally to see their living conditions. Neighbors and fellow church members try to respect their privacy and dignity. Many of them are of a generation that doesn't believe in seeking assistance or discussing their financial needs with others. It usually reaches a crisis point when the problem becomes painfully public, when a government agency receives complaints about the house. When one spouse goes into assisted living, the other one is even less able to cope financially or physically. thanks for clarifying, that is along the lines that I was thinking was likely the situation. Seems almost paradoxical that it is worse for a couple than a singleton in a similar housing situation.
|
|
MN-Investor
Well-Known Member
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:22:44 GMT -5
Posts: 1,937
|
Post by MN-Investor on Aug 27, 2022 11:51:02 GMT -5
Years ago my husband saw an article which basically said if your net worth is below a certain point, don't buy LTC insurance. It's better to just rely on Medicaid. And if your net worth is above a certain point, you'd be better investing on your own to pay for LTC. It was the middle range folks you maybe needed to buy insurance. As to that net worth range, I couldn't tell you now and it was probably 15-20 years ago that my sweetie saw that article. Maybe below $1M and above $2.5M at that time?
One thing to think about, too, with LTC insurance is the hassle for fighting for the benefits when the time comes. If my spouse and I are both 85 when the need for insurance payment comes for my spouse, will I be able to deal with that? Or if it's just me and I need the insurance payments, will anyone - related or not - know about my LTC insurance policy and go through the hassle of getting the benefits from it. What I find most galling about LTC insurance is the fact that you can pay in thousands and thousands of dollars over the years, but at some point you may not be able to afford it and the insurance company can just drop you. All of that money gone. You would have been so much better off investing on your own.
|
|
bookkeeper
Well-Known Member
Joined: Mar 30, 2012 13:40:42 GMT -5
Posts: 1,694
|
Post by bookkeeper on Aug 27, 2022 12:30:27 GMT -5
DH and I have had long term care insurance since about 2006. That's when we got very serious about early retirement. At that time, the premiums were very affordable because of our age.
Our policies are with New York Life. DH's brother in law is the agent who sold us these policies and his son is now also working his business. MN Investor is right, we were in the middle of the net worth range. We had enough money to retire, but not if one of us needed care long term. One spouse could have easily wiped out the retirement fund had something happened.
DH was in a serious car accident 3 years ago. Luckily, I was able to care for him at home after he was discharged from the hospital. We didn't need to use the LTC benefit, but we certainly reviewed it at that time. I think we both have around $250,000 in our LTC accounts at this point.
I have been told by BIL that these policies are no longer available. DH's premium was $1800 and mine was $1200 this past year.
I look at it as insurance on the nest egg.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 30, 2024 1:42:26 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2022 15:02:04 GMT -5
DH and I have had long term care insurance since about 2006. That's when we got very serious about early retirement. At that time, the premiums were very affordable because of our age. Our policies are with New York Life. DH's brother in law is the agent who sold us these policies and his son is now also working his business. MN Investor is right, we were in the middle of the net worth range. We had enough money to retire, but not if one of us needed care long term. One spouse could have easily wiped out the retirement fund had something happened. DH was in a serious car accident 3 years ago. Luckily, I was able to care for him at home after he was discharged from the hospital. We didn't need to use the LTC benefit, but we certainly reviewed it at that time. I think we both have around $250,000 in our LTC accounts at this point. I have been told by BIL that these policies are no longer available. DH's premium was $1800 and mine was $1200 this past year. I look at it as insurance on the nest egg. We are also in the middle range and that was part of our reasoning too.
|
|
Rukh O'Rorke
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 4, 2016 13:31:15 GMT -5
Posts: 10,041
|
Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Aug 28, 2022 9:15:30 GMT -5
oh - so I had a thought/question pop up this morning. I'm assuming that you can use HSA money to pay for long term care? Seems like that would be an alternative means of funding LTC needs. I don't have a lot there, unfortunately. But I have been fully funding since I switched to HDHC plan and just pay out of pocket without submitting for reimbursement. Current balance is 26k, it is only partially invested. Will look into getting this all into the market and think of it as earmarked for LTC and if I never use it, horray. According to my Phil Script, a lump sum investment of $26,000.00 bearing an annual return of 11% could grow to $153,272.41 in 17 years! That sounds like a year's worth of LTC at 75. Maybe? According to my Phil Script, a lump sum investment of $26,000.00 bearing an annual return of 11% could grow to $286,682.95 in 23 years! At 80, more like it, and more likely to be an age when I might need, baring accidents and based on family history of being active and self sufficient up to about 95. Discounting my mother now at 98 because she is requiring more help now, but was self sufficient, even after a stroke recovery, until about 96. the phil button use assumes no more inputs, but I will continue to max while I still work. Whew! I have a plan! and I like it. HSA might be the way for younger people to fund LTC - provided you can afford to both fund the HSA fully and pay out of pocket expenses for necessary care. If you started at 30 at 2k/year, save until age 60, and didn't need till 75 According to my Phil Script, a yearly investment of $2,000.00 bearing an annual return of 11% could grow to $441,826.35 in 30 years! According to my Phil Script, a lump sum investment of $441,826.35 bearing an annual return of 11% could grow to $2,113,957.71 in 15 years! That sounds like real coverage.
|
|
pulmonarymd
Junior Associate
Joined: Feb 12, 2020 17:40:54 GMT -5
Posts: 7,378
|
Post by pulmonarymd on Aug 28, 2022 9:30:22 GMT -5
Doubt $150k is a year of nursing home in 15 years. Medical inflation runs higher than the official inflation rate. It costs at least$13k a month hear, and I imagine Chicago is in the same range. You need to apply your Phil script to the cost with at least an inflation rate of 5/6%
|
|
Rukh O'Rorke
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 4, 2016 13:31:15 GMT -5
Posts: 10,041
|
Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Aug 28, 2022 12:12:23 GMT -5
Doubt $150k is a year of nursing home in 15 years. Medical inflation runs higher than the official inflation rate. It costs at least$13k a month hear, and I imagine Chicago is in the same range. You need to apply your Phil script to the cost with at least an inflation rate of 5/6% eh
|
|
jerseygirl
Senior Member
Joined: May 13, 2018 7:43:08 GMT -5
Posts: 4,775
|
Post by jerseygirl on Aug 28, 2022 15:03:54 GMT -5
So ‘Phil script’ says 11% /year?? That seems very optimistic , I wouldn’t count on that
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 30, 2024 1:42:26 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2022 15:14:45 GMT -5
Currently LTC is running around $9000/mo in Houston, $108,000 for 12 months.
|
|
Rukh O'Rorke
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 4, 2016 13:31:15 GMT -5
Posts: 10,041
|
Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Aug 28, 2022 15:16:31 GMT -5
So ‘Phil script’ says 11% /year?? That seems very optimistic , I wouldn’t count on that with the phil button you can change it, 11 is default setting.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 30, 2024 1:42:26 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2022 15:21:43 GMT -5
I think any investment returning 11% would be pretty high-risk. I'm not saying that you couldn't put together a portfolio that might return that over time, and the timeline would make a huge difference because of market fluctuations. But what if the need to use the capital coincided with a significant market downturn?
As I said before, there is no one-size-fits-all for this so using an HSA to fund LTC might be feasible for some depending on their personal situations.
|
|
jerseygirl
Senior Member
Joined: May 13, 2018 7:43:08 GMT -5
Posts: 4,775
|
Post by jerseygirl on Aug 28, 2022 15:22:51 GMT -5
What is this ‘Phil button’?
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 30, 2024 1:42:26 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2022 15:29:24 GMT -5
I'm curious about something so perhaps folks can weigh in with their recent knowledge. It's been 20 plus years since I've been in a LTC facility to see someone housed under Medicaid. It was horrifying and depressing. When you entered the front doors, you turned down one hallway for self-paid. Lovely fresh pastel paint, attractive chairs in the common area, clean-smelling, nice room with attractive prints on the walls etc.
For Medicaid-funded, you turned down the other hallway. Institutional grey walls, no chairs, sterile common area, pervasive urine odor, stark room with minimal furnishings.
Has anyone been to visit a friend or relative recently who is Medicaid funded? Do their accommodations differ from the self-pay units? How about quality of care?
|
|
TheOtherMe
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 14:40:52 GMT -5
Posts: 27,181
Mini-Profile Name Color: e619e6
|
Post by TheOtherMe on Aug 28, 2022 15:45:20 GMT -5
With my aunts and my rep payee clients, they didn't even change rooms when they went on Medicaid. None of the facilities I have been in as a separate hallway for Medicaid patients.
My aunt had been on full pay for a couple of years before she went on Medicaid. She didn't change rooms or roommates. Her daughter said nothing changed in her level of care.
The nursing homes I have been inside of in the last 10 years all had hallways that intersected at a common area, which was used for dining and activities.
I visited almost every nursing home in the bigger city near where I live when I had the rep payee clients. My clients were all on Medicaid and had no one to help write their checks. One man was receiving less than $500 per month in Social Security, so paying under $500 per month for his care. He had violent tendencies so he had a single room. I was told to never go in his room alone.
The facility where he was had a urine smell every time I opened the door. I was warned of that. None of the other facilities here have a smell unless someone had just soiled their pants, which the facility can't help.
My clients didn't have bed sores, attended activities, etc. I don't think they knew their money had run out.
One of my clients was the first patient in the facility where she lived. She lived their for 36 years. Her parents had made a huge endowment when it was being built but that didn't start to cover care for 36 years. She outlived the money her parents had saved for her care. She was well loved by the staff where she lived and many came to her funeral.
ETA: My dad was self pay when he died. The hospice room was in use so his death happened in his room with a very caring roommate there for everything. My aunt, who was on Medicaid for her entire time in a nursing home, was able to use the hospice room for her final days.
Around here, there is usually only one hospice room and no one can predict if it will be in use.
My dad died around 10 PM and the nursing home made it clear they wanted all of his things out the next day and he was self pay.
|
|
Rukh O'Rorke
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 4, 2016 13:31:15 GMT -5
Posts: 10,041
|
Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Aug 28, 2022 18:21:06 GMT -5
What is this ‘Phil button’? quote this post, look at the options for formating the post, at the far right the last option is a red oval that says "spoiler", to the left is the phil button.
|
|
Rukh O'Rorke
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 4, 2016 13:31:15 GMT -5
Posts: 10,041
|
Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Aug 28, 2022 18:23:45 GMT -5
I think any investment returning 11% would be pretty high-risk. I'm not saying that you couldn't put together a portfolio that might return that over time, and the timeline would make a huge difference because of market fluctuations. But what if the need to use the capital coincided with a significant market downturn? As I said before, there is no one-size-fits-all for this so using an HSA to fund LTC might be feasible for some depending on their personal situations. My opinoin is that there is a higher probability that I will get a long term average of 11% returns on invested assets than that I will need LTC before the age of 90.
|
|