The Official Pro boards Expatriating Thread

[djAdvocate]

May 30, 2022 20:00:02 GMT -5 busymom said:

DH & I decided to "try out" Florida before retirement, due to a transfer opportunity through his company.  The people there were great, but services, wait times to get medical care/dental, expense of medical care, and the costs of food, insurance, etc. were AWFUL.  We moved back to the Midwest, and within 6 months we were back to putting money away, whereas Florida we were literally spending as quickly as we made money (not on purpose.  The high cost of living.)

I'm interested in countries with medical care as good or better than what's available in the US, without obscene costs.  I want reasonably priced food, and availability.  And, I'd like to be within a couple of hours of an airport, so it's easy to visit family.  I'm NOT interested in freezing to death in the Winter, but I don't require tropical weather either.  Just comfortable.  And, I want good options for aging in place when I get old.  

this is very close to my list of "drivers", so my list of countries are probably going to suit you very well.  however, most people won't consider Turkey for a couple of reasons.  first of all, the quality of public medicine there is low.  it ranks 73rd on the WHO list (compared to the mid-30's for the US, Costa Rica, and Canada).  it is, however, insanely cheap.  you can EASILY live for $1000 a month in Istanbul- quite comfortably- per person.  and the cost of everything else follows rents.  i bought six very nice shirts for the equivalent of $30 last i was there.  a NICE meal out for two is about $15.  it is reminiscent of Mexico in terms of costs.  so, for someone who has a fairly high risk profile, a tolerance for foreign culture, and wanting to save gobs of money, Turkey fits the bill.

for "top 10 medical care" you can't go wrong in Europe.  basically the entire content is way better and half the cost of the US.  and the climate is unbeatable in the South.  it pretty much NEVER freezes, and it very rarely gets over 100F.  

[djAdvocate]

May 30, 2022 10:01:47 GMT -5 taz157 said:

May 30, 2022 9:50:44 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

Would love to move to more temperate climate - Hawaii, Spain or Italy. All beautiful!
But we see even people moving to Florida going back home when health starts to deteriorate to live near kids
We stayed in Hawaii once for 5 weeks and tempted to move there. But we’d be far from family and didn’t want that

One of my co-workers has a daughter that's getting ready to move there with her DH and 2 kids. They had gone for vacation and loved it! Made the decision, sold their house, and getting ready to move there in early July. Both of them already have jobs lined up. It will be interesting to see how long they last as there will be NO family close by...

DH and I moved to Florida for 10 years and moved back just before DD1 started kindergarten. When we left, we had no kids and decided why not. We loved where we lived first then DH got promoted and transferred 4.5 hours south of where we had landed in FL. Needless to say, we last 3 years in the new location and left. It was way toooo hot way toooo long for our tastes. If we hadn't moved down south, I'm not sure if we would have moved back to our home state as we really did enjoy where we lived initially in FL. Now we are closer to family (has it perks and drawbacks) though.

i find Hawaii too remote and the healtcare too expensive for my tastes.  also, i am not big on Tropical Monsoon climates.  and, of course, there are Earthquakes and Tsunamis there, but we have them here in California too.  

ultimately, though, if the climate and remoteness and beauty check the boxes for you, Hawaii is far from the maddening life in the US, with the possible exception of Honolulu.

[djAdvocate]

May 30, 2022 18:32:51 GMT -5 soupandstew said:

This is a very interesting thread for me/us. I would love to live in Mexico but there are significant safety issues.

I would like to hear from folks about how SS and pensions are or aren't taxed when living abroad. Investment income, RMD's ?

my sister moved to Mexico.  i have some personal misgivings about where she chose (Cabo), but it has a lot going for it.  she feels safe there.  but she does NOT feel safe in the border regions.  i have spent maybe a month there in the last year.  i might spend another month there, going forward.

as far as income is concerned, the US has "home rule taxation" so you will be taxed just like you lived in the US, but you will generally NOT be taxed locally.  the exception is if you are HNWI, in which case, you will be paying on anything over six figures.

for more specific information, you would have to cite your country, and consult an international tax person.

[NastyWoman]

May 30, 2022 23:50:14 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

May 30, 2022 10:18:17 GMT -5 stillmovingforward said:

I had a coworker who retired to southern Spain. Housing was expensive where he moved but he loved the lifestyle. He went over several times before making the decision.

Southern Spain is a pretty broad swath.  you have Barcelona in the East and Seville in the West.  these are very different places, and pretty widely varying in terms of cost.

do you mind me asking what part of Southern Spain you are talking about?

Don't forget Malaga. At one time,before my xH became an "x"  that was high on tne list of our retirement places.. It is gorgeous!

[chiver78]

May 30, 2022 23:17:15 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

May 30, 2022 7:16:08 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

to echo this, I briefly considered a job that would have had me relocate to Iceland. the British recruiter explained that the COL was higher there than in the US, and I found a number of COL comparator tools that all said I'd be doing better in Reykjavik than in the greater Boston area. 😳🤯

you would be doing better in Iceland than on EITHER of the coasts.
in addition, Iceland has tremendous social justice.  it is now considered the free speech capital of the world, and women's rights are at their absolute apex there.
furthermore, it is a really great location to travel FROM.  Icelandic Air goes to most major cities, and it a 3 hour flight to places like Paris, Barcelona, Porto, Holland, and an even shorter trip to London and Belfast.  you could do a lot worse than Iceland.

except it was a non-starter once I found out I couldn't bring one of my dogs. Iceland has a blanket BSL against bully breeds or any mix of one. 👎

[jerseygirl]

May 30, 2022 23:47:12 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

May 30, 2022 9:50:44 GMT -5 jerseygirl said:

Would love to move to more temperate climate - Hawaii, Spain or Italy. All beautiful!
But we see even people moving to Florida going back home when health starts to deteriorate to live near kids
We stayed in Hawaii once for 5 weeks and tempted to move there. But we’d be far from family and didn’t want that

where is your family?, if you don't mind me asking.

keep in mind that your family can come to you if you choose a good place.
just a thought for you.  YOU are the one that can't move around a lot.
but they can.  they are younger, right?

Mostly NJ and NY, we do love family parties where our 3 kids and grands can all be together. Very unlikely if moving to Hawaii or Europe. Also our cousins, nieces and nephews in same area. So we value this more than moving , we prefer to just vacation to warm beautiful and interesting locations in winter. We live on a lake and near jersey shore so love it here in spring, summer and autumn - but NOT winter.
We have good insurance and can pay for this without a problem. older son is doctor daughter is ER nurse so medical system in US is good for us.
We very much understand how difficult the US medical system and costs of insurance . Wishing it different but realistically won’t change. The insurance lobby is strong, employs many people. Obama care helped but costs of insuring a family is still very expensive and still too damn complicated. Wasting time for Drs and hospitals and insured people.
I do enjoy thinking about relocating and reading this thread very much

[Deleted]

May 30, 2022 23:47:12 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

keep in mind that your family can come to you if you choose a good place.
just a thought for you.  YOU are the one that can't move around a lot.
but they can.  they are younger, right?

Yeah, but it can get expensive. I have only one child, DS, but he's married and the kids are 8, 5 and almost 3. They're doing just fine on DS' income but flying them anywhere to see Grandma is not going to be cheap. It's a whole 'nother realm if Grandma is across the Atlantic. I can't expect them to pay that sort of $$ although I probably could a couple of times a year- but that's not enough time with my grandchildren!

[Bonny]

May 31, 2022 0:04:48 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

May 30, 2022 19:52:40 GMT -5 debthaven said:

This thread is very interesting!

I live in France, if anyone has questions about France. I live in a suburb of Paris. I wish we had a vacation house, but we don't LOL.

I have a friend who divorced her wealthy husband, bought a small flat in Paris, rented it out, and lived in Chiang Mai until her flat was paid off, at which point she moved back. Chiang Mai is indeed beautiful! I could see living there for a year or two, but not retiring full time there. It's just too different, and too far from our loved ones.

Years ago my DS1 spent 6 months in Panama working for the UN. We spent a month with him, using his apartment as a base, travelling, and meeting up with him every weekend. That summer we spent 3 weeks in Panama and a week in Costa Rica. We LOVED Central America! There were a LOT of retired US ex-pats in both countries. Both countries have stellar medical care at greatly reduced cost, and therefore a lot of medical and dental tourism.

DS1 had to be hospitalized in Panama City. We freaked out, then realized the hospital was excellent. When he left the hospital 48 hours later, his health issue had been well-treated, and he was billed ... exactly 1USD, for the coffee he had ordered. He got stellar medical care there! (I know the UN required medical insurance, but still ... 1USD for a coffee!!!)

Barcelona is lovely, but it gets VERY crowded/rowdy/unsafe in summer. If you're really considering it, I'd suggest living in the outskirts, or at least not in/too near the Ramblas. Or leaving/subletting your place out for the summer. We went to Sitges for a wedding last year. We liked it there too, and it felt MCUH less crazy than Barcelona. (Both the bride and groom lived in Barcelona at the time, they still do.)

We are retiring soon, so we have thought VERY long and hard about all of this. To us, there are two considerations:

- proximity to family. In our case, that means our kids/grandkids. We have 2 kids in France (one in Paris, the other in the Alps which is 6 hours away) and 2 kids + 2 grandkids in London. We want to be able to travel to them easily, and have them travel to us easily. 

- living in a "travel hub". Our London kids travel to Paris relatively often, either for work, or to get better deals, or just to see us. If we didn't live in a suburb of Paris, we'd probably see much less of them than we do now. 

For both of those reasons, we'll probably stay where we are. Also, we have excellent medical care here (although we pay plenty in taxes for it).

the bold never entered into my consideration.  it probably should, but i have a very small family, and my son can come and see me.  i get how this is a big consideration for most people, however.

You should think it through. We lived 500 mi from my father (San Diego area) and 600 mi from my MIL (Portland OR area) as they contracted long-term/terminal illnesses the frequent trips put a real strain on us, both physically and mentally. You can read all about on the OT Thread on aging parents.

[mamasita99]

We could be very comfortable here in Australia. I am getting permanent residency so that DW and I have flexibility in the future. Taxes are high, true, but medical is covered and the other work policies are very generous, like leave and retirement. We plan on two years here, then we will reassess what we want to do next.

My children are in university, so currently I’m buying tickets to fly them here during big school breaks. But they are young and they can handle the long flights, seeing all the different places is an adventure to them.

For my parents, though, a different story. They plan to visit in a few years, but I know health can change quickly. I would rather they visit sooner. In the meantime, I’ll have 4 weeks leave to fly back to the US sometime this year.

When the kids are through with university and have full-time jobs they won’t be able to leave for weeks or months at a time. I won’t be ok with being so far away then.

So I see being an ex-Pat fine for a little while, but yeah, with family in the US, I don’t think I can live this far away full-time. Just enjoying it and making it home while we are here.

[Rukh O'Rorke]

the more ties you have the tougher it gets.

[NastyWoman]

Jun 2, 2022 21:48:38 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

the more ties you have the tougher it gets.

though they can tie you down to area or, as in my case tear you apart.. I will never get what I really want, which is having both my kids living close by with one in SE Asia (with no plans of ever leaving) and the other living in Europe married to a lovely woman who has had enough of hot humid weather in Texas so they will never move to SE Asia...

I don't like hot/humid either, so Europe it is. And if DS2 and his family to move from where they live now I'll just move a bit noth west and live near my siblings and their families

[stillmovingforward]

Bumping this thread to see if anyone has more thoughts.
I'm really liking the mass transit in Germany. And another friend is thinking of moving to the south of Spain but he only reason is that she lived there before and liked it. She was warned that buying a house as a foreigner would be tricky.

[NastyWoman]

May 30, 2022 4:08:59 GMT -5 finnime said:

I am very interested in pursuing this topic. I am eligible now for citizenship in Finland, where 2 of my grandparents immigrated from and a third grandparent's parents are from.

The social democracy they have in the northern European countries I find very supportive of good life, relatively free from impoverishment due to healthcare and related costs, or education expenses. Children are cherished and generally not subject to being hunted with assault rifles. Costs for many things are high, but not much higher than a HCOLA here, and the overall cost of living is much lower given that healthcare and education are very reasonable. Taxes are high, of course, but again, not so high as to impoverish you. There are Finnish multi-millionaires and billionaires.

Winters are harsh, so taking a break and traveling to another (Mediterranean?) country in February and March makes sense.

Just started re-reading this thread so others may have pointed this out: Finland is a Schengen country so once you have that citizenship most of Europe will be open to you! No nned to stay in a very cold climate - though I do believe Fins are the happisst people in the world so there is that...

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Jul 25, 2022 15:30:44 GMT -5 stillmovingforward said:

Bumping this thread to see if anyone has more thoughts.
I'm really liking the mass transit in Germany. And another friend is thinking of moving to the south of Spain but he only reason is that she lived there before and liked it. She was warned that buying a house as a foreigner would be tricky.

I’m kind of stuck that 10% of the income tax Germans pay goes to the church.  I kind of have an issue with state supported religion.

[Deleted]

Jul 25, 2022 20:56:48 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

I’m kind of stuck that 10% of the income tax Germans pay goes to the church.  I kind of have an issue with state supported religion.

In Switzerland they have a similar tax but you can opt out if you don't have a religious affiliation. Not sure if the tax supports non-Christian denominations. Having spent 20 years out of organized religion, I could see why that would be a barrier.

[anciana]

Jul 26, 2022 7:22:21 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Jul 25, 2022 20:56:48 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

I’m kind of stuck that 10% of the income tax Germans pay goes to the church.  I kind of have an issue with state supported religion.

In Switzerland they have a similar tax but you can opt out if you don't have a religious affiliation. Not sure if the tax supports non-Christian denominations. Having spent 20 years out of organized religion, I could see why that would be a barrier.

Yes, this! I heard the tax applies only if you declare yourself religious.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Jul 26, 2022 8:36:45 GMT -5 anciana said:

Jul 26, 2022 7:22:21 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

In Switzerland they have a similar tax but you can opt out if you don't have a religious affiliation. Not sure if the tax supports non-Christian denominations. Having spent 20 years out of organized religion, I could see why that would be a barrier.

Yes, this! I heard the tax applies only if you declare yourself religious.

Nope.  You pay the tax regardless, it just goes elsewhere.  I asked this question to our German tour guide.  

If you declare yourself non religious, it doesn’t cut your tax bill by 10%.  If you are a non approved denominations aren’t ‘approved’, like Muslim, they don’t receive funding.  

[stillmovingforward]

I asked a few people I'm working with here and they've told me that you only pay the church tax if you belong to one of the recognized church entities.
You can formally leave the church (keep the letter they send you forever) or, when you move here for work, don't declare a religion on the paperwork if you don't intend to belong to or benefit from the church.
You can join at a later date but you then start paying taxes.

[Deleted]

Jul 26, 2022 8:55:51 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Nope.  You pay the tax regardless, it just goes elsewhere.  I asked this question to our German tour guide.  

If you declare yourself non religious, it doesn’t cut your tax bill by 10%.  If you are a non approved denominations aren’t ‘approved’, like Muslim, they don’t receive funding.  

Sounds a bit like the United Way! You could tell them that you wanted 100% of your donation to go to Charity X but that just meant less of everyone else's contributions went to Charity X because they'd already determined what % of the pie Charity X was going to get.

And the more I think about it, even within Christian denominations there are some I wouldn't want to support!

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Jul 26, 2022 10:04:56 GMT -5 stillmovingforward said:

I asked a few people I'm working with here and they've told me that you only pay the church tax if you belong to one of the recognized church entities.
You can formally leave the church (keep the letter they send you forever) or, when you move here for work, don't declare a religion on the paperwork if you don't intend to belong to or benefit from the church.
You can join at a later date but you then start paying taxes.

The tax is collected by the government and dispersed to the various denominations.  It really is just a shell game.

You pay a certain amount of tax and anywhere from 8-10% of your tax is given to your denomination that you’ve chosen in your name.  However, if you do not choose one, your taxes don’t decrease proportionately.

Part of this (as described by our guide) was that all the old churches are always in some state of repair and this needs to be supported in some way.  Many of the churches, especially Cologne Cathedral are hidden under scaffolding because the materials used were not the best for longevity.

[Artemis Windsong]

Thanks for bumping this.  I would be interested in the findings on the thorough spread sheet.

Some friends were ready for Portugal then he got sick and returned to the US.

At one time, I was on another chat board of actual expats.  I asked a question and wham, they changed the thread location and didn't include me.

I am learning a lot from the travels of our members.

We are snowbirds.  And the weather does get in 30F in AZ in winter.  No snow.  Summers are N.  No monsoon events and high temps.

[laterbloomer]

I think I will end up being a snow bird. I'm kind of nervous about losing the security blanket of my home country.

[Bonny]

Jul 26, 2022 21:37:47 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

I think I will end up being a snow bird. I'm kind of nervous about losing the security blanket of my home country.

You will find plenty of Canadians in North Scottsdale.

[Value Buy]

Anyone consider Belize?
We vacationed there about 15 years ago.
I am not sure about health services being good or not.

[Artemis Windsong]

Jul 27, 2022 9:56:33 GMT -5 Bonny said:

Jul 26, 2022 21:37:47 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

I think I will end up being a snow bird. I'm kind of nervous about losing the security blanket of my home country.

You will find plenty of Canadians in North Scottsdale.

There are a lot of Canadians in the Phoenix surrounding areas.

A lot of snowbirds rent an apartment for a few months.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Jul 27, 2022 14:41:41 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Anyone consider Belize?
We vacationed there about 15 years ago.
I am not sure about health services being good or not.

Liked Belize, but not sure I’d want to live there.

[laterbloomer]

Jul 27, 2022 9:56:33 GMT -5 Bonny said:

Jul 26, 2022 21:37:47 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

I think I will end up being a snow bird. I'm kind of nervous about losing the security blanket of my home country.

You will find plenty of Canadians in North Scottsdale.

How much are apartments in the area?

[Artemis Windsong]

Latebloomer - I don't know what the rents are.

The main thing to do is chose where then search on zillow.  Now is the time to lock down a place.

[thyme4change]

Jul 28, 2022 12:21:59 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Jul 27, 2022 9:56:33 GMT -5 Bonny said:

You will find plenty of Canadians in North Scottsdale.

How much are apartments in the area?

There is a wide variety. But, really there are a lot of Canadians all over the Valley. My in-laws (now just MIL) live in a retirement village in Mesa and there are a lot of winter residents in her 'hood.

Living in East Jesus Mesa is my nightmare, but it is a good fit for many.

[Bonny]

Jul 28, 2022 12:21:59 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Jul 27, 2022 9:56:33 GMT -5 Bonny said:

You will find plenty of Canadians in North Scottsdale.

How much are apartments in the area?

I haven't paid attention since we stopped renting out our house in Nov 2020. I only did year + leases and we last rented it out for about $3000/mth for a 3000 sq.ft. 3/3 on 1.7 acres. 

Here's a link to places near my home: www.realtor.com/apartments/85377

Our house is a stone's throw from the Boulders, a fancy gated resort community that has some pretty high end homes.